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Yael Grauer
09-10-2010, 02:08 PM
So I can do a pull-up, but not from a dead hang. So close yet so far away. I can do a neutral grip pull-up on rings and just about every variation, and I can do a pullup on the Grav without any assistance, no problem. I can even start from standing on the Grav and do that. I can do band pullups, jumping pullups, etc. kipping but not from a dead hang, etc. It's that quarter inch or whatever it is that I can't get. Body rows and all the other variations I've tried to build up to it haven't helped. Is doing band pullups from a dead hang my best bet?

Gary Ohm
09-10-2010, 03:42 PM
How about just dead hangs?
Go for time, and when you can hold the full extension for 30 seconds or so give the pullup another try (when you're fresh).

If that doesn't do it, try one arm deadhangs...

I had somewhat the same trouble for a while, and deadhangs helped me out of it. YMMV.

Good Luck

Kevin Perry
09-10-2010, 03:58 PM
deadhangs, bands, negatives if your able to.

Derek Weaver
09-10-2010, 08:50 PM
It sounds like that stretched out position at the bottom is the issue.

I would usually say bands and maybe negatives, but I'm not so sure.

Maybe one of the ex. phys gurus like Steven Low could chime in here.

Yael Grauer
09-10-2010, 10:43 PM
It sounds like that stretched out position at the bottom is the issue.

Yes! It is my Kryptonite!

Donald Lee
09-11-2010, 04:31 AM
It sounds like your lats might be holding you back.

I'm not sure what it's called, but you could try just doing reps with bands or on the Gravitron of just retracting your scapula from the deadhang position.

Or, you could mix things up. You could do retract your scapula and hold for 1-3 sec and then do a full pullup or do at least a 1/3-1/2 pullup.

Even while focusing on the bottom position though, I'd still do some full pullup work so you can easily transition back to full pullups once you've fixed your weak point.

Peter Dell'Orto
09-11-2010, 05:16 AM
I used to have the same problem, or close enough - I'd be able to do one or two from a dead hang, but then I'd have to cut the ROM very slightly at the bottom in order to keep doing pullups.

I solved this problem for myself by doing pullup shrugs. I'd hang at the bottom (not slack, but at a dead hang). I'd keep my shoulders tight and "shrug" upwards 10-15 times at the end of every pullup workout. So maybe I'd do 3-5 sets of pullups avoiding the "dead hang" at the bottom, then do a set of those shrugs. Each shrug was just a straight-arm pull, tightening up the lats and shoulders.

Now dead hang isn't a particular problem even for repeated sets or long sets.

I'd try that. Can't hurt, since it's just a set of very short range motions with a lot less stress than coming down hard from a kip.

Allen Yeh
09-11-2010, 06:17 AM
There was a tnation article from not too long ago where they worked the lats from the "bottom" position of the pullup with a lat pulldown. I tried googling it last night and was unsuccessful.

Here it is:
http://www.t-nation.com/testosterone-magazine-626#pull-up-strength

Joe Hlasnik
09-11-2010, 10:32 AM
There was a tnation article from not too long ago where they worked the lats from the "bottom" position of the pullup with a lat pulldown. I tried googling it last night and was unsuccessful.

Here it is:
http://www.t-nation.com/testosterone-magazine-626#pull-up-strength

I was going to post this, it definitely sounds like this is the case for you. I like the deadhnag shrugs I may have to try that and see how I like it.

Grissim Connery
09-11-2010, 11:18 AM
i agree with all the deadhang work, and something else i would add is trying to pull your head backwards while in a dead hang. it kinda feels like you're trying to do an FL w/o tightening your core. you forcefully extend your arms as if you are trying to do a KTE, but leave your legs limp. if you do it right, your neck will stay neutral, and you will feel a tightening in your lats that almost makes you want to do a pullup. try doing this for reps, coming back to the deadhang each time. i sometimes rep this out before i do pullup work because it makes my lats activate more at the bottom. if i don't, sometimes my shoulder slip into an impinging feeling everytime i get to the bottom.

Yael Grauer
09-11-2010, 01:49 PM
Thanks, you guys are awesome.

James Evans
09-14-2010, 05:50 AM
Yael

If you can do neutral grip on rings I don't think you can be that far off. Can you do a full range chin up?

I'm not 100% convinced by band pull ups. I use them with the female rowers I work with but I'm not sure we get bang for our bucks in the limited time available. I know Rob Shaul abandoned them and moved to a jump and a slow negative.

A long time ago we had a thread about getting Shaf to 20 deadhangs and after some of the discussions I played around with bands for about a month, result: sore elbows and chaffed knees.

Dave Van Skike said Pendlay Rows really helped his pull ups.

Couple of tips:

1. Look up at the ceiling
2. Try to imagine pulling your elbows down rather than yourself up.

Yael Grauer
09-14-2010, 07:44 AM
I can't do a full range anything. Jumps and negatives haven't helped--I can get to a dead hang on the way down but just can't go up from it.

But I had Troy Anderson work me out the other day (been traveling) and he did some basic lat activation work with me and it's very obvious that my lats aren't turning on at all. We just ended up using a band to try to get them firing. So I'm going to have him write me a program for mobility warm-up/pre-hab with lat activation and some other stuff I'm working on (hip stuff) and incorporate that in. I'm not really sure the training cues will do much until I build up lat strength.

The reason I wanted to do bands is because then I could start from a dead hang as opposed to all the other variations--jumping pullups won't help me since I can already do them perfectly and they're not working the stuff I can't do at all.

James Evans
09-14-2010, 10:03 AM
I can't do a full range anything. Jumps and negatives haven't helped--I can get to a dead hang on the way down but just can't go up from it.


Ah, I understand now.

Yael Grauer
09-14-2010, 12:19 PM
Was thinking of buying this toy instead of traditional bands but I'm a sucker for toys.

http://lifelineusa.com/products/coming-soon-pullup-revolution&detail

Justin Arnold
09-14-2010, 08:58 PM
Along with improving lat strength, I think it is important that your shoulders get used to the recruitment pattern needed for a deadhang pullup. To do this, you might try uneven pullups, with one hand 4-5 inches lower than the other. This will put the lower hand into a stronger part of it's ROM, which should help assist the other arm through the bottom position. Obviously you'd want to alternate sides in a method that evens things out.

Climbers use this technique to develop one-arm pullup ability, but they use a greater distance between the hands, and specifically focus on locking out the higher hand.. I'd advise against that, as you'll fatigue very quickly.

You might need an assist from a band.. but the point of this is less about power and more about getting the feel for the movement.

I also like Grissam's idea for lat recruitment.

Ben Moskowitz
09-15-2010, 03:38 AM
Here's a similar article by Mike Robertson, although it's geared towards the lower traps.
Top Priority for Lower Traps (http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/articles/Top+Priority+for+Lower+Traps)

The training progression is:
Lat pulldown isometric
Full lat pulldown
chin-up isometric
band-assisted chin-up
chin-up -> neutral grip -> pull-up

Mark Fenner
09-15-2010, 09:12 AM
Slow negatives or isometrics. Especially in that last four inches at the bottom (your weak point). Pay attention to keeping a big chest (serratus stapling your scaps to your ribs).

Yael Grauer
10-24-2010, 09:57 PM
How about just dead hangs?
Go for time, and when you can hold the full extension for 30 seconds or so give the pullup another try (when you're fresh).

FYI--I tried this and could hold a deadhang at full extension for over 30 seconds on the first try.

Allen Yeh
10-25-2010, 05:55 AM
So how is the quest for a dead-hang going?

Gary Ohm
10-25-2010, 08:08 AM
FYI--I tried this and could hold a deadhang at full extension for over 30 seconds on the first try.

Well, then there ya go. How are you coming with the overall pullup?

Yael Grauer
10-25-2010, 12:38 PM
Well, then there ya go. How are you coming with the overall pullup?

I'm not. Working on lat activation and on eccentric pull-ups has proven completely ineffective.

Blair Lowe
10-25-2010, 01:41 PM
Have you tried some sort of lock-off right beyond dead-hang? It is generally quite difficult to lock that off on an negative/eccentric pullup once your elbow angle gets bigger than 90 degrees.

I dunno about the pullup shrugs. I use them in my WU before dead hang holds. No idear. My shoulders like lots of warmup.

So perhaps you can rig up some sort of assist that will allow you to break from the deadhang and hold. Or work that lockoff from the descent with an assist. Feet on a block or band assist.

Maybe weighted body rows?

Yael Grauer
10-25-2010, 03:20 PM
Yeah, have done weighted body rows, anything with a block I can do because again it's just that 1/8 inch that gives me trouble. Anyway I will probably just do deadhangs with bands once I buy that contraption I want, I guess. I can do weighted body rows with significant weight already...

James Evans
10-26-2010, 05:10 AM
Come on guys. We are all failing to an epic degree if Poliquin is correct.

We should be able to take Yael to 12 pull ups in 12 weeks or we don't know what we are doing.

Sort it out.

Blair Lowe
10-26-2010, 01:32 PM
My thoughts on the weighted body rows is to calculate the percentage of body weight that you are doing when doing a body row and then make it up the leftover to closer and closer to 100% by adding weight.

I'm gonna take a guess and say body rows roughly have 70% of one's BW on them, but that just a guess from pushup BW%. It differs from person to person and I've never see any numbers with females.

When you figure out something you can 3rm that break off point, there you go. Might not be a bad idea to figure out a higher rep mark as well. Dunno.

Andew Cattermole
10-26-2010, 04:43 PM
Get a good Spotter

Position
Support hand under Knee other hand in Lower back

Spotter gives just enough for you to get to top lock off ,you lock and lower with assist if needed working to be without assist on the lock and lower

Reps
Work Ladder Small reps 1-2-3/1-2-3/1-2-3

Use Use tempo 1 count up 1 count Lock off 1 count Lower

Core Tight
At full extension and through out keep the Glutes tight BButton pulled in

Types
Neutral grip
Pronated (Hands Away)

Breathe Out
Breath out on the effort (Pull)


Lat Activation
DB One Arm rows
T bar row
BB Bent rows
Tempo with lock offs

Júlíus G. Magnússon
10-26-2010, 08:39 PM
I think you're over complicating things.

You have access to a Gravitron?

Linear progression.

Start with three sets of 5 reps with an assist you can comfortably do. Next workout, lower the assist by a small amount. Repeat every workout.

Start every rep from a deadhang. I guarantee it won't be more than a few weeks until you have your first pull-up.

Rick Deckart
10-26-2010, 11:47 PM
I can take her to 12 dead hang pullups in 12 weeks but is she man enough to take the challenge? ;)

Rick Deckart
10-26-2010, 11:50 PM
here is how:

test your max, use half of that better yet start with two pullups band assisted if you must.

do ten super-sets of

2 pullups
3 clapping push-ups

90 sec reste between pullups and pushups and supersets

after 2 weeks add a pullup and clap behind your back

another 2 weeks add another pullup per set and clap behind and in front of you

another 2 weeks and your smart enought to figure out what do to next

do that at least twice per week but no more than every other day.

after 12 weeks you can do 12 deadhang pull-ups or i will buy you a 50gram jar of beluga caviar...

Rick Deckart
10-27-2010, 06:00 AM
btw i'm pretty sure that poliquin would program it like so or similarly

Peter Dell'Orto
10-27-2010, 06:11 AM
another 2 weeks add another pullup per set and clap behind and in front of you

I'm curious, what's the benefit of the clapping pushups, nevermind the clapping front-and-back pushups, on dead hangs?

Sorry if that sounds sarky, it's not - it's a genuine question.

I ask because I can do dead hang pullups with any grip I choose, but there is no way I'm getting airborne enough with my pushups to clap behind me nevermind front and back. So it's not something I think of as a related requirement. What's it get you that solves the "pull from a dead stop" problem?

Rick Deckart
10-27-2010, 06:26 AM
nothing.

it is just that if you superset clapping pushups and dead hang pullups the later, in my experience develop faster, also it is more fun than doing 10 sets of pullups with 60 sec rest inbetween and seems to be of shorter duration

Grissim Connery
10-27-2010, 10:35 AM
Can you perform hanging leg lifts with straight legs to pike? To your face/bar? For Reps?
Can you tuck your legs and roll to inverted? For reps?
On rings, can you go from an inverted tuck to inverted with straight body? For reps?
Can you go from piked while inverted to inverted with straight body? For reps?

The resistance i feel when doing a deadhang pullup is strictly due to the vertical distance that my hips travel. doing one of these prior motions helps raise your hips some of the distance. you can then pull your face to the bar as if you are doing an ice cream maker. it's almost the exact same thing that the kipping pullup accomplishes except that you can avoid being explosive in these motions.

i would try tucking up and inverting, then dropping your hips and bringing your face to the bar like an ice cream maker. if you can do this and you get stronger, try reducing the height you bring your hips.
-IOW start at full inverted (90 degrees above parallel) and rotate to meet your face to bar.
-then come to 60 degrees, then 45 degrees, etc.
-Always come all the way back down between reps to dead hang (if you can do multiple).
-Ideally you'd do it as slowly as possible, but it's probably a more realistic goal to just try and remove all kipping while using speed to help you until you get stronger.
-eventually you should be able to pull your hips from deadhang to about 60 degrees beneath parallel and do a pullup from there. you should be able to deadhang pullup at that point

Yael Grauer
10-30-2010, 09:40 PM
Blair, not 100% sure what my weighted body row 3RM and 1RM will be but will check it out.

Yael Grauer
10-30-2010, 09:41 PM
I can do about 10 pullups on a Gravitron with 0 assistance--it has you start from the knees and is impossible to do from a dead hang.

I think you're over complicating things.

You have access to a Gravitron?

Linear progression.

Start with three sets of 5 reps with an assist you can comfortably do. Next workout, lower the assist by a small amount. Repeat every workout.

Start every rep from a deadhang. I guarantee it won't be more than a few weeks until you have your first pull-up.

Yael Grauer
10-30-2010, 09:48 PM
That kind of spotting doesn't work from me from a dead hang--I can do a complete pullup when almost from a dead hang, and from a dead hang I need more than just knee or under the foot support, I need his hands on my hips and helping me get to a non-dead hang and I can go from there. If I push off, I can get to a non-dead hang and go from there but it kind of defeats the purpose.

Ladder won't work since I can already do reps of the almost-dead hangs but can't do reps of the dead hangs since I can't do any.

Not trying to be difficult. :)

Been doing similar lat activation drills for a while now, recently added band Y-presses which is really hitting my lats. Maybe that will help.

Get a good Spotter

Position
Support hand under Knee other hand in Lower back

Spotter gives just enough for you to get to top lock off ,you lock and lower with assist if needed working to be without assist on the lock and lower

Reps
Work Ladder Small reps 1-2-3/1-2-3/1-2-3

Use Use tempo 1 count up 1 count Lock off 1 count Lower

Core Tight
At full extension and through out keep the Glutes tight BButton pulled in

Types
Neutral grip
Pronated (Hands Away)

Breathe Out
Breath out on the effort (Pull)


Lat Activation
DB One Arm rows
T bar row
BB Bent rows
Tempo with lock offs

Yael Grauer
10-30-2010, 09:49 PM
Test my max with what? I can't do ANY dead hang pullups. Therefore I can't start from half or add one each week.

I can almost do a clapping pushup before falling over. However I do have a ton of pushups in my program.

here is how:

test your max, use half of that better yet start with two pullups band assisted if you must.

do ten super-sets of

2 pullups
3 clapping push-ups

90 sec reste between pullups and pushups and supersets

after 2 weeks add a pullup and clap behind your back

another 2 weeks add another pullup per set and clap behind and in front of you

another 2 weeks and your smart enought to figure out what do to next

do that at least twice per week but no more than every other day.

after 12 weeks you can do 12 deadhang pull-ups or i will buy you a 50gram jar of beluga caviar...

Yael Grauer
10-30-2010, 09:56 PM
Can do maybe two or three hanging leg lifts to pike. Not to my face/bar or for reps.

No idea what you mean by roll to inverted. I can do all kinds of rolls like we do in BJJ, mostly back rolls not very good with front rolls.

Not sure what an inverted tuck to inverted with straight body or piked while inverted to inverted with straight body means so the answer is probably no. :) I can do a pullup on rings--again though not from a dead hang. But enough so that it LOOKS like it's from a dead hang.

I do have pretty decent hip movement though, with the only problem being that my right adductor is way stronger than my left adductor so they want to internally rotate, I've been working hard on that though with remedial exercises like single leg left hip approximation, ride sidelying left anterior glute med with TFL inhibition, right sidelying left glute med, etc. plus inverted x band walks, heel bridges, etc.

I really don't think my hips are what are preventing me from doing a dead hang though.

Can you perform hanging leg lifts with straight legs to pike? To your face/bar? For Reps?
Can you tuck your legs and roll to inverted? For reps?
On rings, can you go from an inverted tuck to inverted with straight body? For reps?
Can you go from piked while inverted to inverted with straight body? For reps?

The resistance i feel when doing a deadhang pullup is strictly due to the vertical distance that my hips travel. doing one of these prior motions helps raise your hips some of the distance. you can then pull your face to the bar as if you are doing an ice cream maker. it's almost the exact same thing that the kipping pullup accomplishes except that you can avoid being explosive in these motions.

i would try tucking up and inverting, then dropping your hips and bringing your face to the bar like an ice cream maker. if you can do this and you get stronger, try reducing the height you bring your hips.
-IOW start at full inverted (90 degrees above parallel) and rotate to meet your face to bar.
-then come to 60 degrees, then 45 degrees, etc.
-Always come all the way back down between reps to dead hang (if you can do multiple).
-Ideally you'd do it as slowly as possible, but it's probably a more realistic goal to just try and remove all kipping while using speed to help you until you get stronger.
-eventually you should be able to pull your hips from deadhang to about 60 degrees beneath parallel and do a pullup from there. you should be able to deadhang pullup at that point

Yael Grauer
10-30-2010, 10:09 PM
P.S. Just FYI to get the bigger picture, my workouts right now look like this:

20:10 second 180 jumps: planks X 10 (twice a week)

5 X 20 sec side plank/pushups/mtn climber/squat thrust/pushup/side plank (once a week)

3 X 3 eccentric pullups/6 single arm DB bench/9 reverse barbell lunge/12 double dumbbell high pull snatch (once a week)

sandbag ladders 1-10 with single leg rows, clean and strict press, zercher drop lunge followed by 3 X 8/8/8 ab wheel rollouts (3 directions) (once a week)

10 X band y press/4X5 sec (per side)warrior 1/6 divebomber/30 feet inverted feet x walk/8 heels glute bridge/45 sec plank/30 sec bridge (I do 1-3 of these 5 X week)

hill sprints or some random Ross Enamait workout 1X/week

walking workout 1-2 hours pausing every 15 for 10 squats, 5 pushups, 5/5 lunges and 30 sec plank about 1X/week

Occassionally on my own: hip-dominant work (sumo deads, kb swings), plus the remedial exercises I mentioned.

goals: posterior chain activation, strengthening obliques and abdominals and lats, plus stretching right adductor strengthening left adductor (for that I also sometimes play with pistols to a box, more on the left), stretching hip flexors and front of shoulders, strengthening midback (already included in the program.

Eventually add rotational core work like cable chops once this is improved and my hips are more equal.

What else... oh yeah this is just a 6 week transition program I started a couple weeks ago to get me from what I was doing (Cressey's Max Strength--powerlifting) to what I'm going to be doing (BJJ); working on metcon and strength endurance.

Sandbag only at about 25 lbs.

Rick Deckart
10-30-2010, 10:23 PM
use as much band tension as you must to achieve full dead hangs and start from there, re the clapping pushups normal pushups will do fine. The template works I used it once myself although that was six years ago...

Yael Grauer
10-30-2010, 10:30 PM
p.s. might try to figure out how to incorporate these:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/programs_for_the_pullup_deficient?utm_source=weekl y_dose&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=tnation

and again wanna buy that band-type thingy i mentioned

Yael Grauer
10-30-2010, 10:31 PM
use as much band tension as you must to achieve full dead hangs and start from there, re the clapping pushups normal pushups will do fine. The template works I used it once myself although that was six years ago...

Okay, will do, I wanna buy that band doohickie thing; right now just have Jump Stretch bands which won't work. Can do this in place of the eccentric pullups or in addition...

As for pushups, I'm doing quite a bit of pushups in my program already...

Yael Grauer
10-30-2010, 11:06 PM
p.s. need to modify that t-nation program...

it has eccentric chinups, bent over rows and pulldowns
then flexed arm hang, assisted pullups, db row
optional negatives, jumping pullups and flexed arm hangs

already doing some of these and some have proven ineffective...

hopefully i am not missing something really glaringly obvious

Rick Deckart
10-30-2010, 11:38 PM
jump stretch mini or monster mini works fine with any bar, never used anything else :)

Yael Grauer
10-31-2010, 09:31 AM
The bar at my gym is kind of high up to use bands on, unless I also get a box, but then to kick out the box and use the band at the same time might be tricky.

http://lifelineusa.com/products/coming-soon-pullup-revolution&detail is the toy I want

Rick Deckart
10-31-2010, 12:59 PM
just bend knees and hips and take a low box, worked fine for me all the time

Yael Grauer
10-31-2010, 01:51 PM
just bend knees and hips and take a low box, worked fine for me all the time

We only have two size boxes and neither will work. It's okay, though, I can wait the 5 days for my thing to get in the mail since I've been trying to get a pullup for 3 years now.

Ben Moskowitz
10-31-2010, 02:19 PM
You can also try putting the box slightly to the front, back, or either side of the pull-up bar. Once you grab the bar, you just swing slightly into position. Upon completing the set, swing back to the box or fall to the ground. I dunno if that helps.

Yael Grauer
10-31-2010, 03:25 PM
You can also try putting the box slightly to the front, back, or either side of the pull-up bar. Once you grab the bar, you just swing slightly into position. Upon completing the set, swing back to the box or fall to the ground. I dunno if that helps.

I jut think it'd be hard to deal with both the box and the band, don't you think? I suppose I could try it.

Grissim Connery
10-31-2010, 05:21 PM
here's a video i just made trying to explain what might be beneficial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfD4Os91FDs

i did the motions kinda fast in the video, but if you try slowing them down as much as you can (especially the initial front pull), you can really tax the lats and everything else pretty hard.

No idea what you mean by roll to inverted

Not sure what an inverted tuck to inverted with straight body

i'm probably not using the right terminology. maybe tucked front pull? but basically this, but without the brief static hold at parallel

1:18-1:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3QUYsdz-S8&NR=1

for inverted straight body, i was just talkin about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StZA8ApRnhA


I really don't think my hips are what are preventing me from doing a dead hang though.

i didn't mean the strength and mobility actually in your hips, but the ability to move them during a pullup. in order to explain this it would probably be easier to talk about dips. a while ago, crossfit decided to crack down on people doing bullshit dips. this video will give a good idea of what i'm talkin about with hip movement.

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitJournal_ExploringDipsPre.wmv

so basically it's legit when you can get your hips to move the full distance, but in the meantime, you can use some of those tricks of rotating around your elbows to help alleviate the full strength required to do the full exercise. then when you're stronger, reduce the raising of the hips until you don't need to use it for the deadhang

Yael Grauer
10-31-2010, 06:55 PM
OMG you made a video for me! I feel special. I will totally try that hip thing.

I'm thinking I probably can't do any of the other things you asked if I could do but I'll try.

Yael Grauer
11-01-2010, 05:19 PM
hi Grissim,
I tried this at the gym and I can totally raise my hips and do all those crazy things, but it doesn't help me at all with the pull from a dead hang. It's very helpful when not quite at a dead hang :) but then not really necessary since I can get a pullup from there anyway. LOL. I might be a lost cause. At least I felt like a gymnast for a few seconds.
y

Blair Lowe
11-01-2010, 06:52 PM
Perhaps some heavy f'n shrugs. Maybe that will help you break out of the bottom of the dead hang.

I guess if that was the problem support shrugs from standing, on back(BenchPress) may work as well.

But it also made me wonder if it simply when you try flexing the elbow you can't break that instead of the shoulder.

Perhaps work a lot of volume of your not full ROM pullups. How many can you do? Maybe just the ability to flex the elbow.

Gary Ohm
11-01-2010, 07:27 PM
That's a good thought. It may be arm strength rather than back or shoulder strength. As bad as it sounds, maybe curls could actually help in this case.

Rick Deckart
11-01-2010, 09:01 PM
why would one do curls when one can do pullups, just use enough band tension for example four minis and remove them over the time course

Yael Grauer
11-01-2010, 10:14 PM
Blair, I definitely think it's an elbow thing. It is literally like...locked elbows I can't do the pullup, 2 degrees away from locked and I can't do sh**.

Not sure how many not-quite-pullups I can do, I usually end up locking my elbows on the bottom after I do 1. I think I've only done two or three in a row without dead hanging after doing one or getting mad at myself for not having full ROM.

I don't think it's a bicep issue...

I know I am definitely using my lats in all of my pullup attempts these days (had someone check).

Gary Ohm
11-02-2010, 05:18 AM
why would one do curls when one can do pullups, just use enough band tension for example four minis and remove them over the time course
If you don't have bands you can do curls. I hate curls but it might be the ticket here as it seems like Yael has tried everything else.

Yael Grauer
11-02-2010, 09:03 AM
LOL I hate curls too but whatever it takes. I did some hammer curls as an auxiliary exercise in my last workout.

What kind of numbers we looking at? How much should I be able to curl before I can nix that as my (potential) weak link? I usually weigh around 140-ish (as low as 135 during competition season and never get above 145).

Gary Ohm
11-02-2010, 11:02 AM
LOL I hate curls too but whatever it takes. I did some hammer curls as an auxiliary exercise in my last workout.

What kind of numbers we looking at? How much should I be able to curl before I can nix that as my (potential) weak link? I usually weigh around 140-ish (as low as 135 during competition season and never get above 145).


I can't even imagine a hard and fast number for you to shoot for. I would guess just try and incorporate them and try to make gains as best you can and then at some point you'll be able to get your deadhang.

I had another thought. I wonder if any of the trouble is psychological? When I first tried full-on dead hangs, my elbows felt REALLY exposed. Are you doing any lever and planche work? That might help to "wake up" your elbows.

Again, this is all P'DOOMA info here. Take it for what it's worth.

Rick Deckart
11-02-2010, 11:14 AM
for chris sake, you don't need curls you need to do pullups in an intensity you can handle

next time you do a band assisted pullup, try the following:

do partial pullups from an elbow angle of 60 to 120 degree, as many as you can, make a note to yourself.

then wait 10 minutes

do partial pullups from an elbow angle of 90 to 170 degree, as many as you can, make a note to yourself.

then wait 10 minutes

do partial pullups from an elbow angle of 0 to 90 degree, as many as you can, make a note to yourself.


that should give you a pretty detailed account where your weakness is

Allen Yeh
11-02-2010, 11:31 AM
Sheesh what is with all the curl hate?

Not saying everyone needs a day dedicated to bi's and tri's.....but direct arm work should IMO be a part of training.

Gary Ohm
11-02-2010, 11:39 AM
I think it's pretty plain that her weakness is at the fully extended range of motion. If you're not strong enough to even get off the block from here then you need to do something else.
If you don't have bands, then do curls. No one has even remotely stated that curls are necessary to doing pullups. But if nothing else is working, then perhaps that is something to try. If you don't have bands, then strategic curl work can fill in the gap.
In looking back over the past seven pages, there is not much that Yael has not tried.

Rick Deckart
11-02-2010, 11:47 AM
she hasn't tried my program, and yes curls have their place, but in my opinion it is better to know - via a test - then to assume what the weak link is...

Rick Deckart
11-02-2010, 11:48 AM
and curls will help not one jota I predict - elbow has nothing to do with it!!!

Grissim Connery
11-02-2010, 01:27 PM
i'll make one last suggestion and then i'm out. any physiology guy should correct me if i'm way off.

when i've tried one arm pullup work i think i feel the same feeling as you => that is you can offer resistance to the pull of gravity throughout the pullup except at the deadhang, in which case you just feel like you're hanging and you can't even start the pull. these were a goal of mine a while ago, and i gave up out of frustration.

over the past summer, i've done a good deal of cross work (as much as i can given how much farther i need to go). about 2 weeks ago a i hopped up on the bar with one arm just for fun, and the hold felt different. i still can't do a OAP, but i could start to pull out of the whole a bit. i tried to kip and got a littel bit up, but it's still a ways to go.

i actually think that the issue could be pec related. when you're in a dead hang, you're typically more under the bar than the latter portion of the pullup, when the bar starts to come in front of you. that angle may require the pec to pull you out of the hole and into the beginning of the pullup.

if you think of dumbell pullovers, you start to feel it pull your chest as your arms extend beyond your head.

training wise, i'm not really sure the best way to attack this if it really is the issue. it does seem more likely to me than the bicep idea though. i imagine maybe it's just a matter of getting the shoulder in the right place before the lat can do the dirty work.

maybe steven, donald, or gant can chime in if i really have any basis to my thoughts.

Donald Lee
11-02-2010, 03:15 PM
It sound like you're suggesting that it may be a triceps long head issue. Could be.

I think Peter's idea is probably the best option though.

Maybe some work on the lat pulldown machine also may help. Heavy, high rep work in the trouble ROM or isometric holds at the problem joint angles.

Edit: There are a lot of muscles that have minor functions in the pullup, so yeah...I'm not sure how helpful something like curls would be with a problem like Yael's specifically.

James Evans
11-03-2010, 03:23 AM
Everyone but Peter & Donald is getting this massively complicated.

Main point but Yael keeps having to reiterate this: She can't do a full ROM pull up. Most programmes out there assume you can do 2 or 3, maybe one. She can't do one.

Why is this becoming an argument about armwork? Come on guys, if the sticking point is to move Yael's bodyweight through the initial range of motion from locked out elbows how much weight do you think she needs to curl to be able to replicate that? 2/3 of her bodyweight?

We were all functional then we all became bros again. Nothing wrong with armwork but there are other bigger things to do first.

Yael - Get that band gizmo you want. I would focus on a chin (supinated) grip just so you get the bis a bit more involved. Do what Peter suggests through as long a ROM as you can & don't worry about his plyo push up psychosis. See where you are at the end of his cycle.

Assistance:

Lat Pulldown - Donald not convinced by the carryover both from experience and anecdotal evidence but some people say YES!. Working the initial pull heavy maybe worth a try though. As much as you can for 2-3 inches to get that initial flexion.

Pendlay Row - I think I said earlier that DVS endorsed this for pull up prowess. You need to shift some weight here.

Curlz - If it's an elbow issue why would it not be biceps causing a problem? What flexes the elbow? The muscles used in flexion are: 1) the biceps brachii; 2) the brachioradialis; 3) the brachialis; and 4) the pronator teres. The biceps are the strongest of the flexors and are at there strongest with the hands in a supine position. Use chins as I have said and do some curlz at the end of training, if you feel like it and with a supine grip. No hammer stuff.

Just as a subnote, of all the women I coach who can do do full ROM pull ups only one naturally favours a pronated grip over a supinated grip. She basically can do pull ups but not chins. Everyone else is the other way round. Hammer those chins and then move to pull ups.

Yael Grauer
11-03-2010, 10:00 AM
Okay, I will buy my band gizmo, perhaps do some lat pulldowns (focus on the heavy more than the high rep) and isometric holds--though not sure how to replicate the coming-out-of-dead hang motion on a pulldown. Then if I'm bored I will try to curl 105.

Donald Lee
11-03-2010, 12:24 PM
I think as long as you're not heaving or leaning back, the lat pulldown can be helpful.

Yael Grauer
12-08-2010, 07:07 PM
Okay, so I just got my pullup bar set up in my new digs, and I also have the little toy I bought (http://www.lifelineusa.com/en/products/pullup-revolution?section=all-products) and I can actually do an assisted pullup from a dead hang. WOO HOO! I do have to put the stirrup thing kinda high, right above my knee, with two out of three of the cables in (60 lbs. assistance each) though I could probably put my feet closer to the ground if I had three cables.

Anyway, I can do about two or sometimes three assisted pullups from a dead hang with the thing. Is there a recommended protocol? Like should I just grease the groove and do 1-2 whenever I walk past the thing? Or should I raise it higher or add assistance so I can do sets? And if so, what sets?

So excited I can do something from a dead hang even though it is assisted. And that it's measurable...i.e. I'll be able to lower the thing, or take off a band, eventually, and actually (gasp!) measure progress.

Also should I alternate? Can do wide grip, regular grip, neutral, pullups, chinups, etc.

Jae Chung
12-15-2010, 07:25 AM
Sounds like you've moved toward a solution, but did you ever do weighted negatives?

Ryne Clos
12-15-2010, 12:59 PM
Do you think that weighted statics, holding at the top for 5 seconds and then dropping into a negative and back onto a box, would help? I am going to try those myself.

Yael Grauer
12-15-2010, 06:16 PM
Sounds like you've moved toward a solution, but did you ever do weighted negatives?

Nope. Don't really see the point since it's only the pull from dead hang that I have trouble with.

Yael Grauer
12-15-2010, 06:18 PM
Do you think that weighted statics, holding at the top for 5 seconds and then dropping into a negative and back onto a box, would help? I am going to try those myself.

Not doing weighted and not using a box. I got my new assistance thingy so I can start from a dead hang.

Anyway I decided on my program. I am just doing GTG from a pretty high start point with my assistance thingy, and once it's easier and I can do 3-5 I will lower the band/knee stirrup thingy, and then when I can easily do 3-5 from the lowest level I'll take off one band and start higher again and go down from there until I can do 3-5 with one band from the lowest level and then I'll see if I can do one from a dead hang without the assist.

Thanks for the suggestions though!

James Evans
12-16-2010, 02:13 AM
Yael, I think you've got it figured out pretty well there. Run with that, be patient and let us know how you get on. Try not to force any reps.

Yael Grauer
03-06-2011, 03:17 PM
Okay, so update on this... I've been doing assisted pullups with the Pullup Revolution thing, and even though I can't get a pullup from a dead hang yet, I *am* now able to get a lot closer. I can get from a deadhang to maybe 60 degrees. I need 90, of course, and it took me several months to get from 0 to 60, but it's definitely a start.

I've been using all three bands, which say they offer 60 pounds of resistance each, but since I weigh less than 180 (but more than 120) I'm not sure how accurate that is. I can do about 8 pullups with full resistance (starting as high as I can--so pretty much max resistance, max bands). I am thinking of dropping down to just 2 bands at some point.

Yael Grauer
05-02-2011, 07:11 PM
Another update... two months ago I said I could get from a dead hang to maybe 60 degrees, now I can get from a deadhang to 90 degrees. For some reason I can't get from 90 to the actual pullup, even though I can do a pullup starting at 90 degrees... so more practice.

I can do one pullup with just one band--which is supposed to offer 60 lbs of support, but on the bottom instead of the top, so it's pretty much the lowest level of support for the thing I can use. But I can only do one pullup at that setting. And since I'm doing Joel's program and doing pullups at tempo I need to have more support.

Getting there! Slowly but surely.

Bruce Jane
07-26-2011, 08:52 PM
Well your pull ups workout has been fantastic and awesome. Thanks for posting your way and i will also try to follow this pattern. Thanks for the posting.