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Frank Needham
10-09-2010, 04:34 PM
I'm still having trouble with an injury to my left achilles tendon and am wanting to try cold laser on it. Nothing I've tried so far like stretching or rest has had much of an effect, it still gives me discomfort after any type of robust activity. I've read that cold laser can give very dramatic results in very short periods of time and am looking to hear what others' experiences might be on this. I'd also like to get feedback on what I should be asking in terms of qualifications from say, a Chiro, who uses this to treat patients. The aggravation this injury causes has gotten ridiculous and needs to be dealt with.

Garrett Smith
10-09-2010, 06:13 PM
I'm still having trouble with an injury to my left achilles tendon and am wanting to try cold laser on it. Nothing I've tried so far like stretching or rest has had much of an effect, it still gives me discomfort after any type of robust activity. I've read that cold laser can give very dramatic results in very short periods of time and am looking to hear what others' experiences might be on this. I'd also like to get feedback on what I should be asking in terms of qualifications from say, a Chiro, who uses this to treat patients. The aggravation this injury causes has gotten ridiculous and needs to be dealt with.
I use cold laser therapy every day in my practice. I watched it work well on a regular basis for a year before I bought the practice. Let me know of the places near you that you are considering, find out what kind of equipment they have, and I can give you my opinion.

Jarod Barker
10-10-2010, 05:17 PM
Is it possible to buy your own decent cold laser? I know they sell some quality personal ultrasound and electrostim machines. All the docs I've found in Pittsburgh charge a fortune for cold laser, it seems like it'd be cheaper to buy your own.

Just like when I wanted to do prolo and the doc told me 8K a month for prolo, and they don't accept any insurances.

Garrett Smith
10-10-2010, 08:47 PM
Is it possible to buy your own decent cold laser? I know they sell some quality personal ultrasound and electrostim machines. All the docs I've found in Pittsburgh charge a fortune for cold laser, it seems like it'd be cheaper to buy your own.

Just like when I wanted to do prolo and the doc told me 8K a month for prolo, and they don't accept any insurances.
All depends on what you know and what you are willing to trust.

I have heard of a "Vetrolaser" that would appear to have all the functions necessary and is a nice price. ;)

Frank Needham
10-11-2010, 05:27 AM
Is it possible to buy your own decent cold laser? I know they sell some quality personal ultrasound and electrostim machines. All the docs I've found in Pittsburgh charge a fortune for cold laser, it seems like it'd be cheaper to buy your own.

Just like when I wanted to do prolo and the doc told me 8K a month for prolo, and they don't accept any insurances.

I wondered about that too. Did some quick poking around and decided, for myself, this was not a good option. It'd be just another thing that would be better left to a pro to handle, considering the prices and knowledge required to do a top notch job.

G, I've got a list of providers in the area who I'm going to survey later and I'll back here with what I find.

Jarod Barker
10-12-2010, 12:45 PM
All depends on what you know and what you are willing to trust.

I have heard of a "Vetrolaser" that would appear to have all the functions necessary and is a nice price. ;)

An equine and canine laser.... hmmm.... I'm tempted, genuinely tempted. Looks like you can pick up the 3 piece kit for under 900. That still beats a month of prolo by $7,100. Are there any reliable resources for learning to do this yourself? I've done my ultrasound at the PT. Being there 5 days a week, I guess they just decided it's easier to just let me do it. Electrostim is a bit hard to do sometimes depending where you have to place the electrodes. Can you burn/injure someone with a cold laser?

I have a laser pointer, what if I just turn that on and leave it focused on my foot for a few hours a day? :)

Garrett Smith
10-12-2010, 02:24 PM
Honest answers.

If you aim a cold laser directly in your eye(s) long enough, you could cause some damage. With the power level of a Vetrolaser, you could not do tissue damage if you tried. EDIT: do not do cold laser over a pregnant uterus or a known or suspected cancerous site.

The weaker the laser, the less penetration depth. So a laser pointer (which I believe has to be less than 3mW, the infrared Vetrolaser is 200mW) could work if something was very superficial/shallow in nature or if you were using it to treat acupuncture points. I have a 5mW red laser I use just for this purpose.

Jarod Barker
10-14-2010, 04:56 PM
Wow, I was just trying to make a joke about the laser pointer, I had no idea that could actually work. Maybe I should try it on my shin scrapes from deadlifting.

I was just extrapolating what I know about ultrasound, and I was taught that you can burn the bone if you stay in one place too long, so the wand must continually be moved. Vetrolasers sound very safe by comparison then if they cannot damage tissue.

I may seriously consider saving up for one now. I think my next major purchase will be compex electrostim machine, but I think the Vetrolaser just made my wish list. Although the female of house seems to think we need a new dishwasher....

Samuel Hughes
10-14-2010, 07:18 PM
Wow, I was just trying to make a joke about the laser pointer, I had no idea that could actually work. Maybe I should try it on my shin scrapes from deadlifting.

I was just extrapolating what I know about ultrasound, and I was taught that you can burn the bone if you stay in one place too long, so the wand must continually be moved. Vetrolasers sound very safe by comparison then if they cannot damage tissue.

I may seriously consider saving up for one now. I think my next major purchase will be compex electrostim machine, but I think the Vetrolaser just made my wish list. Although the female of house seems to think we need a new dishwasher....

If your wife actually let you buy a laser over a dishwasher... shes a winner.

Jarod Barker
10-14-2010, 07:40 PM
If your wife actually let you buy a laser over a dishwasher... shes a winner.

Well she's a girlfriend now, but I'll tell you what, she let me buy a new shotgun (a nice one too, Mossberg) when we needed a new stove last year. So, if she lets me buy a laser when she wants a dishwasher, she just might stick around long enough to make it to wife. I like a woman with her priorities in order.

Frank Needham
10-21-2010, 06:00 AM
Here's what I've got to offer so far on my first visit to the Chiro for cold laser. Unfortunately, and because I was laying on a treatment table face down, I did not get the equipment manufacturer name nor was I able to get a good look at the laser. I did ask the mfr name but the guy only knew the model number and said it was a Model 880? First the chiro did the normal routine of "adjusting" me and seemed to find that satisfactory but I kept bugging him about the cold laser thing and what he knew about it. He didn't have much to say about it other than they don't use it that frequently. Because I bugged him about it he had one of the office assistants come in and apply the device to the affected area of my foot for about 10 minutes. There is no sensation at all of anything taking place. From what I could tell about the procedure this is something literally anyone could do to themselves if they had access to the laser. As for any noticeable effects from the first treatment all I can say is that my left heel area feels marginally better and I say that with hesitation because I'm always leery of the placebo effect when being treated for anything not quantifiable. I am going back on the 29th for another round and will report here on my progress, or lack thereof.

Jarod Barker
10-21-2010, 02:43 PM
Hmmm, I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that cold laser had to be applied often. I have a friend who plays college ball and severely injured his shoulder. They used the cold laser on him every single day. I would suspect that consistent, repeat treatments would be necessary for any measurable reduction in healing time.

Frank Needham
10-21-2010, 04:46 PM
I believe you are correct for ideal conditions. When there are other factors like a job, studying and family in the mix you just do what you can when you can.

Garrett Smith
10-21-2010, 04:46 PM
Hmmm, I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that cold laser had to be applied often. I have a friend who plays college ball and severely injured his shoulder. They used the cold laser on him every single day. I would suspect that consistent, repeat treatments would be necessary for any measurable reduction in healing time.
Yes. Absolute minimum guideline I give to patients to expect progress is 2 treatments a week.

Jarod Barker
10-21-2010, 10:13 PM
I believe you are correct for ideal conditions. When there are other factors like a job, studying and family in the mix you just do what you can when you can.

Believe me, I totally appreciate your position. That's all the better I could to either. It would be a struggle for me to match Dr. G's recommendation of 2 treatments per week. It's hard enough getting out of work early 1 day a week let alone twice. I'm just saying, I know that in the training room for college ball players, when they got injured they were required to check in everyday for their cold laser treatment. It is amazing to me the quality of medical treatment some college sports programs offer.

If money were no object, I'd have a TENS unit, ultrasound, and cold laser all in my home gym.

Jarod Barker
10-25-2010, 11:29 PM
Ok, I've done quite a bit more reading on these things, and some people claim you can burn yourself on the laser... but I've yet to see anyone state that they actually DID burn themselves.

If I go ahead and splurge on a vetrolaser, (the female says if I buy a laser she's buying a puppy... sounds fair to me hahaha), is the vetrolaser enough or are the acupunture laser and 6 light laser necessary too?

And it says to keep it away from the thyroid. I have some nasty costochondritis that flares up from time to time, and occasional neck pain, how far do you have to keep it from your thyroid?

In your practice, do you think it works better than ultrasound or any other alternative?

Garrett Smith
10-26-2010, 06:19 AM
The Vetrolaser is enough for most things that a layperson (ie. not educated in acupuncture) would need. I'm not experienced with their 6-light laser.

If you want to treat your neck, simply treat it from the posterior side, not from the front. Don't treat directly over the thyroid from the front.

I don't use ultrasound. For most things, I think US is a waste of time.

Jarod Barker
10-26-2010, 08:37 AM
Cool, thanks doc! I think I may go ahead and get one of these. Seems like a smart investment. I'd imagine a quality laser will last for years.

Frank Needham
10-30-2010, 04:39 PM
Yesterday was my second visit and of course the Chiro wanted to know if the CL improved things any. All I could say was it is too early to tell. Your mind plays tricks on you when you want to believe something is going to happen so even though the injury does feel a bit better it may not be from the CL but instead just staying off it. I'll give it 3-4 weeks of CL visits and then do a test run, maybe a tough hike or something like that to see how it feels after. Oh yeah, here's the CL this office uses: http://www.microlightcorp.com/products/ Pretty pricey stuff. If it does indeed work though I guess the $$ is worth it.

Jarod Barker
10-30-2010, 10:14 PM
Yesterday was my second visit and of course the Chiro wanted to know if the CL improved things any. All I could say was it is too early to tell. Your mind plays tricks on you when you want to believe something is going to happen so even though the injury does feel a bit better it may not be from the CL but instead just staying off it. I'll give it 3-4 weeks of CL visits and then do a test run, maybe a tough hike or something like that to see how it feels after. Oh yeah, here's the CL this office uses: http://www.microlightcorp.com/products/ Pretty pricey stuff. If it does indeed work though I guess the $$ is worth it.

Wow, that is expensive!

Garrett Smith
10-31-2010, 06:44 AM
Yesterday was my second visit and of course the Chiro wanted to know if the CL improved things any. All I could say was it is too early to tell. Your mind plays tricks on you when you want to believe something is going to happen so even though the injury does feel a bit better it may not be from the CL but instead just staying off it. I'll give it 3-4 weeks of CL visits and then do a test run, maybe a tough hike or something like that to see how it feels after. Oh yeah, here's the CL this office uses: http://www.microlightcorp.com/products/ Pretty pricey stuff. If it does indeed work though I guess the $$ is worth it.

The Microlight is extremely expensive for what one gets. FYI, the Vetrolaser's design is based on the Microlight...