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Dean Redzic
10-10-2010, 09:45 PM
Hello, looking to use paleo type of diet to hopefully increase my quality of life as well as my body composition.
I understand many people experience a positive change in fat to mass ratio whilst on a diet like this.

I weigh about 285 and would like to weigh the same...if not less, but more muscle less fat.

My concern is I wont be able to gain or maintain strength going through this process.

Is there a key to me being able to keep my strength up

Dean Redzic
10-10-2010, 10:50 PM
Is a lot of fruit a bad idea?

How about raw milk?

Wayne Riddle
10-11-2010, 02:36 AM
Main problem I see some people having with a paleo diet is getting enough calories. Might be a good idea to track your calorie intake at the start with something like Fitday at the start just to be sure of your calorie intake.

Get enough calories and you'll be able to maintain and even gain strength. Might have to add things like coconut milk or shots of olive oil to get enough calories, but try the diet first without doing that.

Dean Redzic
10-11-2010, 04:33 AM
Thanks Wayne,
Do you know of any good ways (or calculators) that would help me determine the round about figure I need to eat calorie wise?

Last time I saw a nutritionist I ended up on about ~4000 and I maintained...but I was maintaining a crummy 'skinny fat' 285lb body (I think it may have been the large amount of carbs)

I am hoping to eat the same amount, but the quality food and amount of real protein will be the deciding factor of my physique.
What do you think?

Darryl Shaw
10-11-2010, 05:48 AM
Hello, looking to use paleo type of diet to hopefully increase my quality of life as well as my body composition.
I understand many people experience a positive change in fat to mass ratio whilst on a diet like this.

I weigh about 285 and would like to weigh the same...if not less, but more muscle less fat.

My concern is I wont be able to gain or maintain strength going through this process.

Is there a key to me being able to keep my strength up

Eat a reasonably varied diet that provides sufficient calories and carbohydrates and you shouldn't have any problems keeping your strength up.

Is a lot of fruit a bad idea?

Fruit is good for you and should be eaten ad libitum.

How about raw milk?

Milk isn't paleo.

Do you know of any good ways (or calculators) that would help me determine the round about figure I need to eat calorie wise?

Try these -

Interactive DRI for Healthcare Professionals. (http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/interactiveDRI/)

Diet Genie Calorie Requirements Estimator. (http://www.runningdeersoftware.com/products/dietgenie-calorie-req.htm)*

* Note: For best results set the macronutrient ratios to 60%, 25% and 15% for carbohydrate, fat and protein respectively.

I am hoping to eat the same amount, but the quality food and amount of real protein will be the deciding factor of my physique.
What do you think?

Calories determine what you weigh and training determines body composition. Eat well, train hard, rest and repeat and the results will come in time.

Arien Malec
10-11-2010, 12:16 PM
After a bit of Googling, I'm assuming you compete strongman, and want to maintain strength and strength-endurance for your sport.

Paleo is worth the experiment, and may help body composition, particularly if you have chronic inflammation from grains, etc. It's very unlikely to be a miracle, however.

Your best bet may be old fashioned carb cycling in a paleo setting. That is, on non-training days, eat slightly under maintenance, lower carb, and on training days, eat higher carb post-workout, aiming for higher than maintenance calories those days.

But doing body recomp while maintaining strength and bodyweight at 285# is a highly specialized topic. I doubt you can eat the # of calories you are going to need to consume and stay truly low carb on those days (there's only so much fat you can keep down). Eating higher carb on a paleo diet is a pain as well (lots of fruit, peeled potatoes, and mashed sweet potatoes). I might give Robb a call and see what he suggests.

Dean Redzic
10-11-2010, 03:49 PM
I might give Robb a call and see what he suggests.

Thanks,
does he not post on this forum?

Dean Redzic
10-11-2010, 04:02 PM
Eat a reasonably varied diet that provides sufficient calories and carbohydrates and you shouldn't have any problems keeping your strength up.



Fruit is good for you and should be eaten ad libitum.



Milk isn't paleo.



Try these -

Interactive DRI for Healthcare Professionals. (http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/interactiveDRI/)

Diet Genie Calorie Requirements Estimator. (http://www.runningdeersoftware.com/products/dietgenie-calorie-req.htm)*

* Note: For best results set the macronutrient ratios to 60%, 25% and 15% for carbohydrate, fat and protein respectively.



Calories determine what you weigh and training determines body composition. Eat well, train hard, rest and repeat and the results will come in time.

Thanks,
I know milk isn't paleo, but I have heard a couple strength athletes just adding it in to help with the strength.


I tried those calculators, one gave me 4215 and the other 3982 so I guess I should stay around the mark I was getting to before

Arien Malec
10-11-2010, 05:41 PM
Robb does not generally post here. Writing books takes away from forum activity, I guess...

Jarod Barker
10-12-2010, 12:35 PM
Milk isn't paleo, but I have to admit, having removed it from my diet, and then brought it back, I recover much faster drinking milk postworkout. For months I did chicken and sweet potatoes, but there must be some factor that makes milk more bioavailable or something. Then again, sweet potatoes aren't technically paleo either....

That being said, if you're smart about your food choices, you can easily get enough calories. Especially if you go sort of pseudo paleo. I throw heavy cream into my scrambled eggs, heaps of butter into my potatoes, and olive oil on just about everything. Coconut milk is awesome too. I get the lite coconut milk and can literally drink a can at a time. The regular coconut milk is a little thick to drink straight from the can.

If you think about it, there's really no reason why can't build muscle on paleo if you're getting the calories and nutrients.

Dean Redzic
10-12-2010, 04:08 PM
Milk isn't paleo, but I have to admit, having removed it from my diet, and then brought it back, I recover much faster drinking milk postworkout. For months I did chicken and sweet potatoes, but there must be some factor that makes milk more bioavailable or something. Then again, sweet potatoes aren't technically paleo either....

That being said, if you're smart about your food choices, you can easily get enough calories. Especially if you go sort of pseudo paleo. I throw heavy cream into my scrambled eggs, heaps of butter into my potatoes, and olive oil on just about everything. Coconut milk is awesome too. I get the lite coconut milk and can literally drink a can at a time. The regular coconut milk is a little thick to drink straight from the can.

If you think about it, there's really no reason why can't build muscle on paleo if you're getting the calories and nutrients.

Thanks Chad,
Are you a heavy lifter?

That was my realization as well....its just food, just better quality. As long as I get all the calories from a better place and better quality food.

As part of my checkup I am getting my insulin sensitivity checked out which might give a few more clues

Justin Arnold
10-12-2010, 09:44 PM
You could plug a few days of your current diet into fitday to see what kind of calorie intake you are getting now, then shoot for a similar amount with paleo foods. You -will- lean out. Seems like most people I've got started on it over 200lb lose about 10lb of water in the first week.

Low(er) carb paleo will often slow muscle gain because of the really tight control of insulin, which someone pointed out in another thread is a VERY anabolic hormone. I fought with this for months, having trouble even maintaining weight on what should be a 500 calorie/day surplus. But then, I'm very lean and have always had a high metabolism. One week into 1/4-1/2 gomad and I'm already putting on appreciable weight. I guess I can thank the big insulin dose that milk provides for that that (and the increased hunger, ironically).

How are they checking your insulin sensitivity? I think Robb mentioned the usual test being pretty worthless in a recent podcast of his.. i think I recall him saying that your A1C is a far better indicator of what is going on.

Dean Redzic
10-12-2010, 10:17 PM
I might just do that with fitday.

The doctor is going to pull the pin on the insulin sensitivity test, and just run a fasted insulin test.


How were you spreading you gallon of milk through out the day?
I trained yesterday and just went with a liter (3rd of a gallon)

Justin Arnold
10-12-2010, 10:57 PM
A1C is super-easy and common, you might look into it as well.

I try and get as much milk in as possible around workouts, plus I'll pop a couple lactase pills just to help my system deal with the quantity in a more... socially acceptable way. On non-workout days, i usually end up drinking less (still a quart at least), often drinking it in 2 halfs somewhere throughout the day. It's not really much of a science. I did full-GOMAD last year for a couple months and put on probably 10lb of muscle and 10lb of fat.. tho the insulin resistance and acne got pretty bad toward the end. It's a pretty stark difference when I'm eating clean paleo (no dairy). Super-clear skin, healthier appearance, rarely get hungry, etc.. I just have trouble putting on muscle, even when I'm eating 'enough'.

Darryl Shaw
10-13-2010, 05:28 AM
Dean,

I've just googled your name and if you're the rather large Aussie strength and conditioning coach I think you are it might be worth you talking to Vicki Deakin, who I believe is a colleague of yours, to see if she can suggest ways you can improve your diet.

Dean Redzic
10-13-2010, 01:38 PM
Dean,

I've just googled your name and if you're the rather large Aussie strength and conditioning coach I think you are it might be worth you talking to Vicki Deakin, who I believe is a colleague of yours, to see if she can suggest ways you can improve your diet.

Thats me...and no, she was a lecturer at uni, and I have spoken to her in the past about these issues, but I feel her specialty lies in endurance sports

Chris Butler
10-14-2010, 06:24 AM
Hello, looking to use paleo type of diet to hopefully increase my quality of life as well as my body composition.
I understand many people experience a positive change in fat to mass ratio whilst on a diet like this.

I weigh about 285 and would like to weigh the same...if not less, but more muscle less fat.

My concern is I wont be able to gain or maintain strength going through this process.

Is there a key to me being able to keep my strength upHowdy All, Sorry, late to the party.

Last summer I went from 243lbs.@ 20%+ BF > 238lbs.@ 12%BF on a 100% Paleo diet.
I made small strength gains along the way. I've been training for over 30years, small gains are what I expect.
I consumed about 4,000kcal a day. I'm intolerant everything, so NO dairy! This can be done 100% Paleo.

Jarod Barker
10-14-2010, 05:03 PM
Thanks Chad,
Are you a heavy lifter?

That was my realization as well....its just food, just better quality. As long as I get all the calories from a better place and better quality food.

As part of my checkup I am getting my insulin sensitivity checked out which might give a few more clues

Hey Dean, I um *cough *cough do Cultfit.... :( (ashamed)

I've played with strength cycles though at various times. Certainly not an elite lifter by any stretch of the imagination, but at one point, disappointed with my sub 200 pound back squat and sub 300 pound deadlift, I made a focused effort to improve my lifts. I spent 6 months powerlifting and put nearly 100 pounds on each lift, all the while eating paleo with dairy. Even now, I'm no longer doing @F, I'm following Wendler 531 for 7 weeks now, and I can tell that adding milk and kefir really impact my recovery and strength gains.

That's my "heavy" lifting experience. However, I can tell you from tweaking my diet with @F, I always recover better with dairy. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed rule, but it definitely works for me, so I would recommend to anyone give it shot with and without and compare your results. That, and grass fed whole milk tastes good!

Dean Redzic
10-14-2010, 05:44 PM
That's my "heavy" lifting experience. However, I can tell you from tweaking my diet with @F, I always recover better with dairy. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed rule, but it definitely works for me, so I would recommend to anyone give it shot with and without and compare your results. That, and grass fed whole milk tastes good!

From what I have read from other people dairy is the key.

If I do cultfit, do I have to remove my man bits?

Dean Redzic
10-14-2010, 05:52 PM
Howdy All, Sorry, late to the party.

Last summer I went from 243lbs.@ 20%+ BF > 238lbs.@ 12%BF on a 100% Paleo diet.
I made small strength gains along the way. I've been training for over 30years, small gains are what I expect.
I consumed about 4,000kcal a day. I'm intolerant everything, so NO dairy! This can be done 100% Paleo.
Thats an awesome progression and what I am hoping for

I hope this is not a rude question, but where are your lifts at?

Also where did most your cals come from? Were you eating a lot of fats? Lots of fruits

Chris Butler
10-14-2010, 07:15 PM
I'm a 43yr. old, large, endurance athlete so my lifts are not impressive.

Currently I'm training with sandbags and stones, gym went out of business.

My macros at the time where Pro - 300gr./ Fat - 225gr./ CHO - 100-200gr. depending on activity level. Majority of my carbs were from fruit. Fats are animal sources and unrefined coconut oil.

Right now I'm working on getting to low single digit BF%
Pro - 350-400gr./ Fat 225 - 300gr./ CHO - Tues,Wed,Fri & Sat - 50gr/ Mon, Thurs - 150gr./ Sun < 30gr.

Jarod Barker
10-14-2010, 07:27 PM
From what I have read from other people dairy is the key.

If I do cultfit, do I have to remove my man bits?

Hahaha! No, no... no surgery required. Man bits just shrivel up, die, and fall off. The scary thing is that's closer to the truth than I'd like to admit.

Speaking of paleo eating, I just finished cooking up leg of lamb. Life is good.

Dean Redzic
10-15-2010, 12:19 AM
I'm a 43yr. old, large, endurance athlete so my lifts are not impressive.

Currently I'm training with sandbags and stones, gym went out of business.

My macros at the time where Pro - 300gr./ Fat - 225gr./ CHO - 100-200gr. depending on activity level. Majority of my carbs were from fruit. Fats are animal sources and unrefined coconut oil.

Right now I'm working on getting to low single digit BF%
Pro - 350-400gr./ Fat 225 - 300gr./ CHO - Tues,Wed,Fri & Sat - 50gr/ Mon, Thurs - 150gr./ Sun < 30gr.
Sort of like carb cycling? are the bigger CHO days training days.


Hahaha! No, no... no surgery required. Man bits just shrivel up, die, and fall off. The scary thing is that's closer to the truth than I'd like to admit.

Speaking of paleo eating, I just finished cooking up leg of lamb. Life is good.

I have seen some strong CF guys though. There are a couple that I coach that clean over 220 and squat 500+ (Its not amazing, but it seems to be better then what I preconceived)
They are starting to realize the importance of maximal strength and not just doing metcons everyday.


I think I have made up in my mind that I will be doing 'the anabolic diet' but just using paleo choices. The carb up days might be a bit hard, but we will see!!!

Chris Butler
10-15-2010, 12:27 AM
Sort of like carb cycling? are the bigger CHO days training days.Absolutely carb cycling.
Everyday is a training day of some kind except Sunday.


Good luck! It's worth it!

Samuel Hughes
10-15-2010, 05:09 AM
Keep us posted. I am interested to see how this works with someone your size

Steve Shafley
10-15-2010, 05:42 AM
I asked Robb Wolf about this on his blog some time back.

Dead simple:
1-Paleo, on the low-carb CKD side in general.
2-Add dairy as needed for significant muscle/weight gain.
3-some strategies to minimize any down sides of the dairy (fish oil, vit-d and the CKD)
4-some rubrics for figuring out what you are doing with both training and food. “I am here, want to get there…these are the steps I need to take.
5-Non-retarded programming. Nothing new under the sun, as you know, there is no magic or free lunch, but with the explosion in people doing training there is a dearth in basic programming knowledges.

I just found some studies the other day indicating gluten suppresses IGF response both from food and training. Could be some of the muscle wasting effects we see in celiac folks. Rutman’s son can lose 5-8lbs in a week from a gluten dose. they found this when Logan was 2.

The whole thing boils down to heal your gut for good absorption, eat an ungodly amount of food (if that’s what you need), control hormones like insulin as best your can, periodize your training (in the words of Dutch Lowy “have a fucking clue”)

That’s it. In many ways it’s an attempt to write a book that I’d actually want to read. Since I just make all this shit up anyway, I will have forgotten that material after I write it, so it will be a good read for me at least once it’s done!

Jarod Barker
10-15-2010, 04:42 PM
Sort of like carb cycling? are the bigger CHO days training days.




I have seen some strong CF guys though. There are a couple that I coach that clean over 220 and squat 500+ (Its not amazing, but it seems to be better then what I preconceived)
They are starting to realize the importance of maximal strength and not just doing metcons everyday.


I think I have made up in my mind that I will be doing 'the anabolic diet' but just using paleo choices. The carb up days might be a bit hard, but we will see!!!

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, there are some beasts in CF. I mean, they just had that olympic weightlifting competition in Colorado, and some of those guys put up numbers that are nationally competitive. I trained with a guy at a CF affiliate who was power cleaning over 400 pounds, often for reps, and could squat 500 for a set of 8 sending the bar airborne every rep. However, I think guys like that have the genetics to be strong on any program. His flexibility, proportions, and build in general were definitely factors in his strength. He was strong before CF, and he just kept getting stronger.

Just as you point out, the importance of maximal strength is sometimes overlooked in favor of metcons. This goes back to Coach Rut's Max Effort Black Box where absolute strength and metabolic conditioning are sort of in a balancing act. If I had complete control over my own programming and didn't have to follow a training program in order to prepare for a career, I would definitely follow Rut's MEBB.

As Steve listed Robb's diet suggestions, those sound just like what I was told at the CF Football Cert. Which really isn't a surprise since Robb and John Welbourn are good friends. And John is one big, strong dude. You have to see him in person to really appreciate his size.

Steve Shafley
10-15-2010, 06:00 PM
Yeah, in a phone conversation, Robb said that those are the guidelines Welbourn and he have come up with with regards to that topic.

Dean Redzic
10-15-2010, 11:11 PM
Yeah, in a phone conversation, Robb said that those are the guidelines Welbourn and he have come up with with regards to that topic.

Thanks so much for posting that.

I Guess I kind of came to that conclusion in the end (Anabolic diet being a CKD... isn't it?)

I dont understand how milk fits in on the non carb days, but the 2 days re-feed will be filled with milk and fruit...and if I am a good boy 1 snack

Jarod Barker
10-16-2010, 09:53 AM
Thanks so much for posting that.

I Guess I kind of came to that conclusion in the end (Anabolic diet being a CKD... isn't it?)

I dont understand how milk fits in on the non carb days, but the 2 days re-feed will be filled with milk and fruit...and if I am a good boy 1 snack

Non carb days you can always just load the whey protein. In fact, if you're really into the "paleo" diet and eating grass fed animals, you can get whey made from the milk of grass fed cows now from All Pro Science. Use CFFB as your coupon code and you'll get 20% off. Welbourn has had that link up on his website for a couple months now, I would expect it still works.

Steve Shafley
10-16-2010, 07:03 PM
Whey is processed quite a bit. I am unconvinced that there is a big enough difference to warrant the significant extra expense.

I used to use a lot of protein powder, often 100+ grams on training days. Then I stopped. I didn't notice any adverse training issues when I did.

Jarod Barker
10-16-2010, 09:25 PM
Whey is processed quite a bit. I am unconvinced that there is a big enough difference to warrant the significant extra expense.

I used to use a lot of protein powder, often 100+ grams on training days. Then I stopped. I didn't notice any adverse training issues when I did.

100g of protein powder is quite a bit, what did you replace it with?

I've never tried keeping the milk in my diet without whey protein, maybe I'll try a month using egg protein and see if there's a difference.

Geoffrey Thompson
10-17-2010, 05:50 AM
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, there are some beasts in CF. I mean, they just had that olympic weightlifting competition in Colorado, and some of those guys put up numbers that are nationally competitive. I trained with a guy at a CF affiliate who was power cleaning over 400 pounds, often for reps, and could squat 500 for a set of 8 sending the bar airborne every rep. However, I think guys like that have the genetics to be strong on any program. His flexibility, proportions, and build in general were definitely factors in his strength. He was strong before CF, and he just kept getting stronger.

They didn't put up really competitive numbers (except for vaughn), they put up numbers that would qualify for nationals. Spealler's total was okay.

That guy does sound like a beast, though.

Jarod Barker
10-17-2010, 12:28 PM
They didn't put up really competitive numbers (except for vaughn), they put up numbers that would qualify for nationals. Spealler's total was okay.

That guy does sound like a beast, though.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that they'd medal in the Olympics, but there were some very respectable numbers there. Speal is an incredible athlete. The numbers would be competitive on a national level, but certainly not on the world stage. Not to be a downer, but the US isn't particularly competitive in international weightlifting. We get a few here and there, but it's not like we dominate weightlifting the way we do other sports.

Dean Redzic
10-22-2010, 06:13 AM
So its been nearly 2 weeks.
I have lost a few kilos, some water, but there is a visual difference in some parts of my body.

Deadlifted today, and pulled a weight that was very respectable for me. It was a weight that would need some kind of peaking or prep to hit. But I hit it today no troubles.
No stims, no peaking, no carbs and no energy (it has been a massive couple weeks very emotionally draining)
I am sure I will be able the hit a PB for the first time in a couple years

Had a band bench Thursday that was ridiculously strong...I have nothing to compare it too but I dare say it would be the heaviest lockout I have done in a year (more band tension than I have ever attempted)

I have to mess around with the calorie levels some more...but I am happy!

The only thing is on one day on the weekend I had a few no paleo things.


....so yeah at this current stage my strength levels have not suffered

Jarod Barker
10-24-2010, 11:23 AM
The only thing is on one day on the weekend I had a few no paleo things.


Call it a carb up, gotta reload sometime.

Hugo Duarte
05-01-2011, 08:58 AM
This is an interesting thread.

I have been trying to eat more paleo-friendly foods, specially after reading about the benefits of a paleo diet and the problems of foods we are not supposed to eat.

However, being a strength athlete, I do worry about the lack of carbs of a paleo diet. It would be interesting if paleo strength athletes detailed which foods they eat to get carbs and/or carb feed strategies.

Moreover, I do think it is important for people to learn what works with them. If you are actually able to process wheat, rice or oats well, then there is no reason avoid them.

Tobias Akeblom
09-15-2011, 02:37 AM
roots and tubers works great for me. I totally love owen roasted Sweet potato.

Steve Shafley
09-18-2011, 07:52 PM
Sorry Chad, I missed this:

100g of protein powder is quite a bit, what did you replace it with?

Initially, nothing. I did figure out I was only getting 120 or so grams of real food protein without the shakes, so I made a point to eat more protein, gradually. I eventually settled on fish, usually farmed tilapia, as a cheap and easily prepared protein meal.

200g of protein a day from real food is a bit of a hassle, but it isn't hard. I tried for a while to get to 260g daily, but this wore me out.