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View Full Version : Question of Strength, Feb '06


Allen Yeh
02-26-2007, 11:15 AM
Another Q and A with Charles Poliquin, interesting stuff as always.

In this months Q&A he states:

"So, the worst exercises are the dumbbell power clean and the one arm dumbbell snatch. I don't know any successful top strength coaches who use those."

Aside from coaches that have to do with Crossfit and the like I'm pretty sure Charles Staley is a big proponent of 1-arm snatches, I definitely consider him as one of the top strength coaches. Paul Chek is also the person seen demonstrating the db clean in the article.

What's your guys take on this? I kind of never liked the DB clean and preferred the barbell version anyway but what's your feeling on the 1-arm snatch?


As for the rest of his article nothing all that earthshaking jawdropping, and the Biosignature Stuff does seem somewhat interesting.

Mike ODonnell
02-26-2007, 11:42 AM
BB clean far superior to the DB clean...and I'm not a PL expert, but too easy to not use the right force tequnique in a DB clean (aka people will curl it up), probably limiting strength gains...plus you do more weight with a BB. Clean is meant for a BB in my book.

1 arm DB snatch....I think it is a great metabolic and conditioning tool. Again for strength though....a BB is superior.

Each has it's own place in a program....for strength BB is king....for metabolic DB works great.

Greg Everett
02-26-2007, 12:56 PM
as mike kind of says, the db versions will never allow the same loading as a barbell, and so for strength development, they kind of suck. but for metabolic conditioning and variety, they're great. if chuck p is being very specific about strength training, i agree with him. if he's talking strength and conditioning, i disagree.

Russell Greene
02-26-2007, 12:57 PM
I wonder what Dave Leyes thinks about this article.

Ron Nelson
02-26-2007, 02:23 PM
I wonder what Dave Leyes thinks about this article.

. . .and Mike Rutherford.


Ooops. Just saw the picture in the article. Funny thing is, Charles Staley misunderstood the question and it sounds like he's saying he's in the picture. Ha.

Steve Shafley
02-26-2007, 03:18 PM
I think on a spectrum of success, Poliquin rates higher than Staley, and Leyes isn't even on the map. Sadly, except in the world of the PMenu and Crossfit, Mike Rutherford is pretty unknown as well.

On top of that, Poliquin really is as mad as a hatter. Whole lot of smoke, but where's the fire, if you get my drift. Not that what he's offering doesn't have value.

Staley offers "personalized" training to those in the Staley Training Group, but guess what? Everyone gets the same program. You can pull that off the WOD.

Ron Nelson
02-26-2007, 04:14 PM
I'd have to agree with what you said, Steve.

I caught on to the Staley Method right after buying [U]Muscle Logic[U]. I learned nothing I didn't already know from his T-nation articles. EDT is pretty simple to understand. Get as many reps in as you can in 15 minutes.
Next time, get more. I liked it for a while, then got distracted and moved on.

Polquin? He's 60/40 for me. 60% great info and tips. 40%, WTF?

Allen Yeh
02-27-2007, 03:29 AM
Mike Boyle seems to like the db snatch as well:

"I love DB Snatches. We have used them with all of our athletes for years with zero injuries. The draw-in has become controversial based on McGill's work. I updated the core chapter in my new book Designining Strength Programs and Facilities.

I have to say I consider myself a reasonably successful strength coach so , there is at least one that uses the One Arm DB Snatch. There is actually a great video on my website www.michaelboyle.biz of Tricia Dunn, a three time Olympian, DB Snatching 60 lbs for 5 reps. She has never had a shoulder problem."

Mike has always come off as really knowledgable and would err on the side of caution when injury is a concern.

James Evans
02-27-2007, 06:20 AM
Are they going to rehash this debate every month? It's getting boring.

I found the inane debate as to whether that was a young Charles Staley quite amusing though.

Dave Van Skike
02-27-2007, 09:17 AM
as mike kind of says, the db versions will never allow the same loading as a barbell, and so for strength development, they kind of suck. but for metabolic conditioning and variety, they're great. if chuck p is being very specific about strength training, i agree with him. if he's talking strength and conditioning, i disagree.

I think I have seen a carryover from heavy DB snatches to power cleans.
Once I got over half bodyweight on DB snatches, there is a seems to be some carryover. Maybe it's speed strength or whatever but the third pull, hip and shoulder shrug are much snappier for me now. I can say this with soem confidence becuase I don't do olyliftign jsut power cleans and an occasional BB snatch, but I do lots of heavy unilateral work, swings, snatches etc.

Mike ODonnell
02-27-2007, 10:32 AM
Are they going to rehash this debate every month?

Ha....I agree...unfortunately...nothing new in fitness so people make their mark with brash arguements to one side or the other....helps to increase Ebook sales probably. No one wants to buy a book from someone who agrees everything works....no drama there.

Ron Nelson
02-27-2007, 11:50 AM
DB squat cleans finally got me to jump under the bar on the BB clean. But that's me.

As for the hullabaloo in the article, I have this take: Controversy will arise whenever one person comes out and says that there is one definite way to do, or not do something. I'm sure Gutenberg took a lot of crap when he came up with movable type. Polquin shoots his mouth off and says one or two exercises are "dumb." Controversy ensues. Coaches disagree. An entire tempest erupts in a teapot. BFD.

If coaches, and I mean the big timers who train lots of people and have, or want to have, huge egos, want to get noticed, they just need to shoot their mouth off on the infernets. Arguments break out, sides are taken, lives are lost. To me, it's all bluster and puffing. Just another way to get yourself noticed. Polquin may be brilliant, but does he really need to take a stand knowing others use these movements? No, just a way to tell everyone you're the biggest dog on the block. I really don't find statements like "you should never. . ." particularly useful.

Guess that's why I enjoy Dan John's writing. Here's what worked for me; your results will vary.

James Evans
02-28-2007, 03:55 AM
He punted out this stuff about the validity of one armed lifts last month. This seems as much to me a dig at Paul Chek, probably at Pavel and possibly at CrossFit too, as any serious concern about these lifts, though whether this comes from him or from the T-Nation editorial I'm not sure.

T-Nation is an excellent resource; delve beyond the bodybuilding nonsense and there is some really good reading material to be found but by Christ are there some stupid f*@ckers posting on those boards. If they can get excited about whether or not that is Staley with a wig performing a one armed snatch then actually challenging the validity of anything is going to set them off into meltdown.

I like one armed snatches and cleans regardless of what Poliquin has to say about them. I believe the Earth is round too.

By the way, Chek is a big mother isn't he? Athough admittedly one who looks made out of alabaster.

Allen Yeh
02-28-2007, 04:44 AM
Great stuff at T-nation, bodybuilding or not, while I'm not into it anymore I used to be quite into bodybuilding and the like.

There seems to be DMF'ing posters just about everywhere, I remember reading some article on "internet flaming" and how easily it gets out of hand.

Anyone, I guess I wanted to hear more on why other coaches liked them and thought they were safe, more as a counterpoint. So if anyone ever said to me "I think their not safe because CP said in this article" I could reply more than "well this coach and this one disagree" but more along the lines of "the stresses that CP points out are...."?


Hey James you ever heard of the Flat Earth Society? Google it....it's freaking mindboggling I was directed to their website a few years back by a friend. I was reading it thinking..."WTF?????"

James Evans
02-28-2007, 06:29 AM
Pope Innocent III believed the world was flat.
Hitler believed the world was round.
Who do you believe, the Pope or Hitler?

If that's humour I find it banal. If it's meant in all seriousness I think that it is utterly f:eek::eek:cked up.

Thanks for showing me that though Allen.

I wasn't knocking your interest in the views of different coaches by the way. I find a discussion on here far more enjoyable to read than when it takes place on other sites and was keen to hear the views of others.

There was a good comment about one armed snatches over on Brutal Training
from Andrew Read (who I respect a lot) when he asked someone why they were doing them. That's important. We need to think these things through. What purpose does the exercise serve. Does it hurt me?

I do them because I find them fun and so far I haven't f@*cked myself over (I did smash the db into the inside of my knee the other week).

James Evans
03-01-2007, 03:40 AM
Actually it occured to me last night that I had read somewhere on the internet that CrossFit was for bored housewives and effeminate executives but it was bound to give you rhabdo, Dan John invented said internet but was a clown when it came to coaching, Olympic lifts were dangerous and Robb had started a business empire with Mark Twight and Bill Fox but Mark was upset because Mike Boyle had poked fun at him at some conference.

What do I know about the sense of one armed lifts? All the facts you need are out there in cyberspace....

Allen Yeh
03-01-2007, 03:58 AM
Wait I thought Al Gore invented the Internet....

Nooooooooooo!!!!! *Shakes fist at the sky*

I don't think the Flat Earth Society is a joke....I think they were first based in England in fact.

Robb Wolf
03-01-2007, 09:05 AM
Actually it occured to me last night that I had read somewhere on the internet that CrossFit was for bored housewives and effeminate executives but it was bound to give you rhabdo, Dan John invented said internet but was a clown when it came to coaching, Olympic lifts were dangerous and Robb had started a business empire with Mark Twight and Bill Fox but Mark was upset because Mike Boyle had poked fun at him at some conference.

What do I know about the sense of one armed lifts? All the facts you need are out there in cyberspace....

James!

I wanted to keep that Wolf-Twight-Fox-John-Castro-Putin-Trump business empire on the "Down Low". Oh well...cat's out-a-the-bag! Group photo to go up next week.

Ron Nelson
03-01-2007, 09:51 AM
James!

I wanted to keep that Wolf-Twight-Fox-John-Castro-Putin-Trump business empire on the "Down Low". Oh well...cat's out-a-the-bag! Group photo to go up next week.

Just keep your clothes on in this photo. Is it true that this same group is behind the "Recruit Gore for 2008" movement?

James Evans
03-02-2007, 03:11 AM
Allen:

I don't think the Flat Earth Society is a joke....I think they were first based in England in fact.

Are you suggesting that as I live in England I have some personal responsibility for the genesis of the Flat Earth Society?

Or does their geographical origin in England confirm their seriousness?




I'm taking the piss by the way.

Allen Yeh
03-02-2007, 06:03 AM
I have no idea what taking the piss means unless it' means what I think it means....so how do you keep your computer clean in the bathroom?

James Evans
03-02-2007, 06:16 AM
:)

You're being too medically literal. It means I'm teasing you.

If I said I was pissed up on Guinness last night (which I was by the way) it would mean I was drunk.

If I said I just pissed myself reading your last post it would not mean that I was incontinent.

Although of course I could just be working with a Blackberry and shaking myself off as I type, very slowly, with the other hand.