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Samuel Hughes
10-15-2010, 08:41 AM
Anybody ever check out this blog? http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/

For those who don't want to read it, the guy basically operates at >85% 1RM with 15-30 reps however he can get them. He trains 6 days/week alternating heavy and conditioning/hypertrophy stuff. Heavy days have a pull, a press, and a squat. Conditioning/hypertrophy is short metcon/strongman or small, weak point body part supersets.

It definitely caters towards the extreme/injury prone side of things but as a 22 year old, I can't say his style isn't attractive to me. For those who have been down this road, think I could do a stint with this kinda thing without ruining my body long term?

Joe Hart
10-15-2010, 09:42 AM
Give it a swing. Being 22 you have time to recover from an injury. Being 41 I don't really want to try. I also don't have that kind of time for just the gym.

You might want to give Broz (sp?) a look. He has some lifters that are beast no matter how you look at it.

Brian DeGennaro
10-15-2010, 10:50 AM
You've gotta play it by ear and listen to your body. Some days you just can't lift 85% or more, that's when you take it lighter or decrease the volume or train fewer days for a little bit and ramp it back up. The body cycles through those periods of really awesome training to really crappy training, listen to it and follow along.

Gant Grimes
10-15-2010, 02:43 PM
Nutrition (and probably restoratives) are a big part of the reason Jamie can do what he does. He just posted some ridiculous numbers at a PL meet with no belt. Guy is solid.

People shouldn't mention being overtrained until they have eaten, slept, and worked their ass off. They've usually cut corners somewhere.

Give it a whirl. You won't be able to do it when you're 40.

Kevin Shaughnessy
10-15-2010, 03:26 PM
Jamie has also admitted to steroid use IIRC.

Jarod Barker
10-15-2010, 04:32 PM
I'm not sure how sustainable a program like that is for the long term, but I'd figure you'd be safe doing it in short cycles. The key is always periodization as I'm learning (learning very very slowly). Especially if you stick to the same lifts and don't mix it up every single day a la @fit style. I've been following just a straight lifting program for 7 weeks now, and I'm not even sore after workouts anymore, yet my strength is up, reps are up, and I'm adding weight to the bar. I don't see why you couldn't work up to something that similar to his 6 days a week 15-30 reps, but I don't know if I'd jump in whole hog.

Dave Van Skike
10-15-2010, 04:43 PM
i think that guy is great. good example of the three basic tenets of success.

bust ass/be consistent/ pay attention.

I don;t care if he snorts pixie dust, he'd be a hard man regardless.

Garrett Smith
10-15-2010, 04:44 PM
Building the base for C&P-style training takes a long time, once it is done, it can likely be maintained for a while.

I like my deload weeks though, and I think they lend more to longevity of training.

Derek Weaver
10-15-2010, 08:24 PM
When I first came across his blog, I thought "Douchebag". I came back across it a couple months after and changed my mind.

That dude is nuts. In a good way. The numbers he put up in that meet were impressive.

If I remember right didn't he total elite with no belt a that meet at 181 or something?

Kevin Perry
10-15-2010, 10:47 PM
I just checked the blog, I like his attitude, and he seems to offer a fresh look at training instead of the same old "do this not that" routines.

It's kind of making me rethink some things as im in the midst of training rebellion.

Samuel Hughes
10-16-2010, 12:38 AM
Appreciate all the replies. I think I am going to give it a 6 week shot and see how it goes. The plan is something like 3 days heavy, 1 day gymnastics, 1 day small muscle/sprints, 1 day Oly/metcon hybrid. In the spirit of his method, none of that is set in stone I will adjust as needed. Nutritionally, I am planning to go clean low carb paleo + whey 6/7 days per week and a single 3 hour get the fuck out cheat on monday nights. Kinda hammered right now and about to chase some tail...just to kick start the program. Roll Tide

Garrett Smith
10-16-2010, 05:53 AM
When I first came across his blog, I thought "Douchebag". I came back across it a couple months after and changed my mind.

That dude is nuts. In a good way. The numbers he put up in that meet were impressive.

If I remember right didn't he total elite with no belt a that meet at 181 or something?
Yes he did.

He's been lifting heavy since I first worked with him at the UA Rec Center...back then he was doing tricep bench dips with 4 - 45's loaded onto his legs. This was circa 1999.

Patrick Donnelly
10-16-2010, 03:09 PM
Appreciate all the replies. I think I am going to give it a 6 week shot and see how it goes. The plan is something like 3 days heavy, 1 day gymnastics, 1 day small muscle/sprints, 1 day Oly/metcon hybrid. In the spirit of his method, none of that is set in stone I will adjust as needed. Nutritionally, I am planning to go clean low carb paleo + whey 6/7 days per week and a single 3 hour get the fuck out cheat on monday nights. Kinda hammered right now and about to chase some tail...just to kick start the program. Roll Tide
I'm thinking you just missed the message of his blog near entirely...

Samuel Hughes
10-16-2010, 06:51 PM
I'm thinking you just missed the message of his blog near entirely...

In what regard? I was a little bit sloppy last night ... but I think it's similar in method to what he does just incorporates skills I want to play with

Patrick Donnelly
10-16-2010, 09:17 PM
In what regard?
I'm not an authority on the topic, but it simply doesn't seem right to me.You'd have to ask Jamie for specifics.

Kevin Perry
10-16-2010, 09:34 PM
I'm thinking you just missed the message of his blog near entirely...

I'm guessing you mean the way he's planning his light days?

The way I read it is that there is really no cardio at all and light days are mainly to target the weak areas or cover the missed areas like abs, neck, arms, calves, a complex, etc. so the gymnastics/oly/crossfit thing doesn't really fit for the light days.

Grissim Connery
10-16-2010, 11:27 PM
the author of chaos and pain seems really focused on proving that he's tough.

on a serious note: if you expect to stick to a program like that, you're gonna want more carbs throughout the week to see some results.

Samuel Hughes
10-17-2010, 05:02 PM
I'm guessing you mean the way he's planning his light days?

The way I read it is that there is really no cardio at all and light days are mainly to target the weak areas or cover the missed areas like abs, neck, arms, calves, a complex, etc. so the gymnastics/oly/crossfit thing doesn't really fit for the light days.

Having an 18" neck and whatnot aren't specific goals of mine, though I get that they may lend themselves to the lifting more than my activities. That being said, maintaining some athleticism and endurance as well as exploring new skills will keep me interested, as long as they don't push my ability to recover. But I'm just going to play it by ear and will change as needed.

Samuel Hughes
10-17-2010, 05:05 PM
the author of chaos and pain seems really focused on proving that he's tough.

on a serious note: if you expect to stick to a program like that, you're gonna want more carbs throughout the week to see some results.

Yeah maybe. I was planning on titrating up as needed as I do pretty well on very low carbs.

Alex Bond
10-17-2010, 06:38 PM
Dude, you deadlift 330#. Don't get all worked up over overly complicated programming. You can make tons of progress with a simple, 3 day a week, 3 sets of 5 routine like Starting Strength. I don't want it to be like I'm calling someone out on their lifts, but you definitely have plenty of room to build with a really simple program. You're making the same mistake tons and tons of novices make - you program at a level more appropriate for an advanced lifter and you don't make as much progress as if you used a program more appropriately matched to this point in your lifting career. I was in your shoes and I got this advice I'm giving you now, and I ignored it, as you will probably ignore me, and my progress stagnated for months before I went back to basics and used a program appropriate for my training level, and I was extremely successful with it. So hopefully once you have stagnated with your CnP style training you will remember this and try Starting Strength and you'll put some real weight on the bar. Good luck!

Derek Weaver
10-17-2010, 11:57 PM
Anyone interested in C&P's totaling Elite at the APF meet can read his blog post on it here.

http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/09/whoops-i-appear-to-have-broken.html

Kevin Perry
10-18-2010, 05:12 AM
Yea thats pretty crazy and badass,

I don't get why he hates on Rip so much though.

Arden Cogar Jr.
10-18-2010, 06:05 AM
The way Jamie trains is very similar to my own, except I dial back on the heavy stuff when I increase my event work. All my "gym sessions" involve a Olympic lift, an overhead supporting that Olympic lift, a squat supporting that olympic lift, and a pull supporting that olympic lift, followed by abs and, perhaps (rarely) some form of lying pressing movement.

I normally alternate between "gym sessions" and "event/sport specific sessions" day to day. My event training is GPP at it's finest.

I must note that a lot of the overly heavy partial stuff he does is great for someone wanting to get hella strong. I can no longer do that becaue of age and the desire to push the envelope. I'm not a powerlifter or a strongman. I'm just an old fuscular bald guy who weilds an axe for kicks and giggles. But, if someones wants to get strong, wants to increase their muscle mass, and wants to do "the iron therapy" - this type of training is perfect.

To quote an old training partner - "one must embrace the power cage and the willingness to accept pain. Because that asshole Nietzsche was right - 'What does not kill you will make you stronger.'"

All the best,
Arden

Samuel Hughes
10-18-2010, 06:19 AM
The way Jamie trains is very similar to my own, except I dial back on the heavy stuff when I increase my event work. All my "gym sessions" involve a Olympic lift, an overhead supporting that Olympic lift, a squat supporting that olympic lift, and a pull supporting that olympic lift, followed by abs and, perhaps (rarely) some form of lying pressing movement.

I normally alternate between "gym sessions" and "event/sport specific sessions" day to day. My event training is GPP at it's finest.

I must note that a lot of the overly heavy partial stuff he does is great for someone wanting to get hella strong. I can no longer do that becaue of age and the desire to push the envelope. I'm not a powerlifter or a strongman. I'm just an old fuscular bald guy who weilds an axe for kicks and giggles. But, if someones wants to get strong, wants to increase their muscle mass, and wants to do "the iron therapy" - this type of training is perfect.

To quote an old training partner - "one must embrace the power cage and the willingness to accept pain. Because that asshole Nietzsche was right - 'What does not kill you will make you stronger.'"

All the best,
Arden

This is encouraging. I like lumbar jacks...

Dude, you deadlift 330#. Don't get all worked up over overly complicated programming. You can make tons of progress with a simple, 3 day a week, 3 sets of 5 routine like Starting Strength. I don't want it to be like I'm calling someone out on their lifts, but you definitely have plenty of room to build with a really simple program. You're making the same mistake tons and tons of novices make - you program at a level more appropriate for an advanced lifter and you don't make as much progress as if you used a program more appropriately matched to this point in your lifting career. I was in your shoes and I got this advice I'm giving you now, and I ignored it, as you will probably ignore me, and my progress stagnated for months before I went back to basics and used a program appropriate for my training level, and I was extremely successful with it. So hopefully once you have stagnated with your CnP style training you will remember this and try Starting Strength and you'll put some real weight on the bar. Good luck!

Thanks man, I hear you and may regret my choice one day. Either way, iits all a learning experience and good fun so I'm forging ahead!

PS. thats 330x5 in a straight set with no bounce. at 155lbs I hope thats at least decent. Also, I really just like the program/author because of his obsession with chicken wings...

Brian DeGennaro
10-18-2010, 06:39 AM
Pretty simple thing to ask yourself:

Is your current training working? Are you progressing in some sort (rep PRs, weight PRs, volume, form, speed, etc) week to week?

If you are, you're doing something right for yourself and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Kelly White
10-18-2010, 11:05 AM
Thanks for the heads up on the blog. His penchant for shit talking and gutter wit has had me laughing to myself quite a bit lately.

One of their lifters, Zhang Xiangxiang, is a fucking fireplug at 5'2", 137, ripped to the fucking bone. His Olympic entry total is more than half the motherfuckers on bodyspace can pull off in a full powerlifting meet- 704lbs. That's right- seven hundred and four pounds went over that little bastard's head in two lifts. When was the last time YOU put 300-400 lbs overhead at a bodyweight of 137? For that matter, when was the last time you chumped double your bodyweight overhead, with a shitload of change to spare? This little Nuprin-colored motherfucker does it every day of the week, just because, and then he goes and shits plate steel and ejaculates lightning, because he's bored with all of the other retardedly impressive shit he does as a matter of course every

Samuel Hughes
10-18-2010, 12:09 PM
Pretty simple thing to ask yourself:

Is your current training working? Are you progressing in some sort (rep PRs, weight PRs, volume, form, speed, etc) week to week?

If you are, you're doing something right for yourself and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Exercise ADD is real and I have it. I definitely need to stick to a plan for more than a few weeks. To make some excuses ;), I think a lot of my problems stem from a lack of training partner... I think I might do much better if I had somebody whose opinion I respect and whose strength matches or exceeds mine. As it is, I'm basically the boss when it comes to both programming and execution. It would be nice to follow someone else for a while... Anyone in the Charlottesville area?

Garrett Smith
10-18-2010, 02:21 PM
I used to think exercise ADD was a good thing. Then I started 5/3/1 and turned my ADD into lifting to a "new max" every month. I like the second one better. Get your variety in your assistance exercises.

Brian DeGennaro
10-18-2010, 02:30 PM
Ejaculating thunder... ow... for the two of you.

I second Garrett. If you're making progress... why the hell would you stop doing it till you've milked it dry?

Kelly White
10-19-2010, 06:52 AM
Brian,

Have you ever done a super high volume cycle with weightlifting, china-bulgarian style.

It seems like it produces, but I guess it does not really work with a job or life outside of the gym.

Brian DeGennaro
10-19-2010, 07:05 AM
Yes I have. It works very well as long as you recover as hard as you train. I only stopped double sessions with that volume and intensity because of a few personal factors but I was seeing progress in technique, speed, repetitions, and weight.

Really, it's just practicing the movements, with a lot of volume, as often as possible. In short, that's how you get good at lifting (and this has always been my view on anything before I got into lifting or heard about Abadjiev/Broz/Pendlay). Bulgarians took it to one extreme because I could still walk away to class after double sessions, from what I've heard many Bulgarians crawled away from the platforms to bed or eat.

When other things in your life get in the way, you can do it in principle, just practice the movements as often as possible as perfectly and as fast as possible until your form/speed breaks down. It'd be nice if you could go as heavy as possible each day with that but you don't "need" to if your recovery methods aren't focused all around the lifting. Just practice with a decently heavy weight for the day.

Jarod Barker
10-19-2010, 08:23 AM
Yes I have. It works very well as long as you recover as hard as you train. I only stopped double sessions with that volume and intensity because of a few personal factors but I was seeing progress in technique, speed, repetitions, and weight.

Really, it's just practicing the movements, with a lot of volume, as often as possible. In short, that's how you get good at lifting (and this has always been my view on anything before I got into lifting or heard about Abadjiev/Broz/Pendlay). Bulgarians took it to one extreme because I could still walk away to class after double sessions, from what I've heard many Bulgarians crawled away from the platforms to bed or eat.

When other things in your life get in the way, you can do it in principle, just practice the movements as often as possible as perfectly and as fast as possible until your form/speed breaks down. It'd be nice if you could go as heavy as possible each day with that but you don't "need" to if your recovery methods aren't focused all around the lifting. Just practice with a decently heavy weight for the day.

Brian, I really like your word choice and that answer. I think I finally see where this high volume training comes from. You say practicing movements. I think that alot people look at weightlifting as an exercise and therefore use maximal weights to build strength. However, if it was treated as a sport, I think people wouldn't question the idea of lifting every single day. Not to get nostalgic here, but in my youth, I played many different sports. I practiced or played every day. We view this as acceptable in most sports, you practice everyday, unless you have a game. I did this for baseball, basketball, football, hockey, soccer, every sport. No one ever accused me of "overpracticing."

I think that weightlifting can be treated the same way because after all, the most important part is technique. And how else do you build technique but the same way you learn any other skill, practice. Perhaps maxing out every day is a bit extreme, and there probably isn't really a great need to squat every single day, but to do the lifts everyday is just as important as a basketball player practicing his jump shot everyday or a tennis player practicing his serve everyday.

Arien Malec
10-19-2010, 11:46 AM
BTW, shorter Chaos and Pain:

CKD on weekly cycle.
3 heavy days/week, with multiple sets of singles, doubles and triples in a density format
3 lighter days/week

It's brilliant, in its simplicity.

(Oh, and fat burners + test)

Samuel Hughes
10-19-2010, 12:09 PM
BTW, shorter Chaos and Pain:

CKD on weekly cycle.
3 heavy days/week, with multiple sets of singles, doubles and triples in a density format
3 lighter days/week

It's brilliant, in its simplicity.

(Oh, and fat burners + test)


Sorry, that looks like a very brief summary... is that what you intended or are you saying something else?

John Alston
10-19-2010, 12:35 PM
is this what you are looking for SH?
http://www.gabrielskey.org/images/Autistic-Hand-Holding.jpg

Brian DeGennaro
10-19-2010, 01:04 PM
Chad, exactly my point. Weightlifting is a SPORT. You have to practice the lifts to get good at the lifts just as much as you have to practice pitching, hitting, hurdling, pole vaulting, gymnastics, and every other movement routinely with diligence and form in mind. Musicians practice all the time too. My brother is a writer and that's all he does with his free time too.

My first exposure to training was Pavel's PTP, and from there I found an archive of old time strongmen articles and books. They never "worked out" because that meant you worked yourself out, to fatigue or worse. They trained and practiced. Over time this practice can be built to maximal and submaximal weights almost daily. You need to get your stuff dialed in firsthand, both recovery and form.

It BOGGLES me when I mention squatting more than 3x a week or lifting more than 5x a week, upwards of 14x in order to get better and people look at me like I'm insane or that it's wrong or overtraining. I see that as diligence. If you make the mistake and "work yourself out" then it's bad but if you don't "work yourself out" then you'll recover between sessions. I'm going to get a PVC pipe for my room to practice the movements between study breaks.

Samuel, read and reread what I'm saying. Ask yourself, are you "working out" or are your practicing?

Samuel Hughes
10-19-2010, 01:13 PM
is this what you are looking for SH?
http://www.gabrielskey.org/images/Autistic-Hand-Holding.jpg

exactly.

Kevin Perry
10-19-2010, 02:02 PM
I like Brian's view of it. "Practice" whatever it is you want to do and go by feel and practice as much as you feel you can and want to.

Just make sure you sleep enough and eat right.

Samuel Hughes
10-19-2010, 04:26 PM
Samuel, read and reread what I'm saying. Ask yourself, are you "working out" or are your practicing?

That was a very effective question. My instinct is definitely to say that I'm working out. I don't consider myself a strength athlete. Lifting is and has been something I do to stay active and hopefully put myself in a good position to succeed in whatever activities I have going on... though those have been few the past few years. Thanks that actually gave me a lot of perspective.

Arien Malec
10-19-2010, 06:21 PM
Oh man, you are going to do this, huh?

OK, hand holding.

First, decide if you want to follow Mr C&P down the path of various supplements.

He's on, by his admission, an ECA or ECY stack constantly (I assume not during his refeeds, 'cause that would be silly). That's insane, but probably explains the overall tone of the blog and the 5% BF.

He proposes, at various times, various strategies for test modulation, ranging from 3x daily emissions, manually stimulated if necessary, to tribulus, to prohormones to actual, y'know, test. On the other hand (so to speak), his 3x daily habit he describes as keeping him away from male HRT.

Diet:

Ketogenic, paleo, lower than maintenance carbs except for 2 free high carb (decidedly non-Paleo) refeeds weekly. (In this area, refeeds should come less frequently the higher %BF you are). Bias towards chicken-wings (except that he quotes approvingly of Pavel that chicken will make you weak and says to eat beef. So whatever). I assume the refeeds come after exercise.

Lifting:

3xweek, do as many triples of basic compound lifts in a 20 minute period as you can, doing 2-3 compound lifts/session, biasing towards squats, cleans, snatches, and btk push presses and push jerks, bench presses, and other stuff of that ilk. As you become acclimated to triples, go to doubles and singles.
3xweek, do bodyweight exercises (dips, pullups, etc.)