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Pete Gordon
10-24-2010, 01:43 AM
Fellow team members.............

I've just been reading through Gregs book on weightlifting...'A complete guide....'.

There's a few things in there that have made me question a few of my beliefs. I thought I'd post here to get some quality feedback.

When in full extension, with the ankles, knees & hips aligned, with bar in hand...is it more efficient to have the lifter standing up tall, with no backwards or forward lean?

I've recently completed a course run by the awf (aust weightlifting federation) who actually encourage a slight lean over the bar, all through the first & second pull.

I'm not going to say that a slight lean backwards is inefficient, since there are bucket loads of lifters who do it & at consistently build & break records. To say that real world evidence is of no value is silly. I'm more interested in hearing your thoughts.

Greg Everett
10-24-2010, 09:08 AM
Maybe I'm reading your post inaccurately, but everyone wants the shoulders at least very slightly in front of the bar during the second pull - but not at the end of it. If you finish the pull with a perfectly vertical body, or with the shoulder still in front of the bar, the bar will be over the toes. If you're lifting anything even approaching bodyweight, let alone more than bodyweight, your balance will be too far forward and the bar will be actively pulling you forward. If you're trying to move the bar in a vertical line (not that you should be, necessarily), this doesn't do it anyway - the bar will move forward. The idea of "efficiency" doesn't make sense for weightlifting anyway - you're not doing a repetitive movement requiring a minimization of energy expenditure. What you need is effectiveness in moving a maximal load one rep at a time. And even if you wanted efficiency, you can't focus only on the bar - you have to consider the bar-lifter unit, and that changes things dramatically.

So again, I;m not sure if I'm even addressing exactly what your concern is, but in any case, there is definitely no way you want the body to be extended vertically or leaning forward at the finish of the second pull.

Andrew Wilson
10-24-2010, 01:28 PM
Fellow team members.............

I've just been reading through Gregs book on weightlifting...'A complete guide....'.

There's a few things in there that have made me question a few of my beliefs. I thought I'd post here to get some quality feedback.

When in full extension, with the ankles, knees & hips aligned, with bar in hand...is it more efficient to have the lifter standing up tall, with no backwards or forward lean?

tall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMpksOYdKY wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXm8LDYc3vE wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7U5F5yTuQk wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR2VICQLlyQ wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0mnj2c_nCA wfs


I'm not going to say that a slight lean backwards is inefficient, since there are bucket loads of lifters who do it & at consistently build & break records. To say that real world evidence is of no value is silly. I'm more interested in hearing your thoughts.

you also have to take into account the torque. http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4426/torque2.png most of the elite lifters you do see break records with that lean backwards still keep the bar millimeters close to the body so they have minimal torque. a lot of novice lifters will back lean and bend, and the bar will jolt several inches forward from their body, almost an arms' length, and their shoulders will actually move away from the bar after the second pull (adds distance to travel), which adds tremendous torque to the lift. you'll see the bar fly backwards on a miss, or them jump forward to catch, or miss the lift forward though their under it, or their body does this super bend mid air

Pete Gordon
10-24-2010, 04:28 PM
Thanks for your input fellas.


At this stage, I don't think i properly communicated my question in my OP. When I say a lean over the bar within the 2nd pull, the best way i can explain it is trying to lean over the bar during the 2nd pull as possible, without causing any functional problems.

Greg, do you mean that to become more effective, with loads of or greater than bodyweight, a slight lean backwards (not a gross one) is needed, since with mass of that size, there would be the tendency to fall forward ?


Thanks Andrew for those videos. The one with the drawn data (i assume through a program such as DartFish is quite interesting. I must admit, I forgot about torque being a factor.

Brian DeGennaro
10-24-2010, 06:59 PM
Do you mean straight up and down in the 2nd pull?

Jarod Barker
10-24-2010, 08:11 PM
tall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMpksOYdKY wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXm8LDYc3vE wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7U5F5yTuQk wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR2VICQLlyQ wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0mnj2c_nCA wfs



you also have to take into account the torque. http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4426/torque2.png most of the elite lifters you do see break records with that lean backwards still keep the bar millimeters close to the body so they have minimal torque. a lot of novice lifters will back lean and bend, and the bar will jolt several inches forward from their body, almost an arms' length, and their shoulders will actually move away from the bar after the second pull (adds distance to travel), which adds tremendous torque to the lift. you'll see the bar fly backwards on a miss, or them jump forward to catch, or miss the lift forward though their under it, or their body does this super bend mid air

What is the correction for this? I jump forward every time, I just can't seem to break the habit. I've tried cleaning and snatching in front of a wall, I've hit people who bravely stood in front of me. Light weight, I'm fine, but as soon as I hit about 80% of my max, I'm jumping forward. Especially on the snatch.

Andrew Wilson
10-25-2010, 10:42 AM
I've hit people who bravely stood in front of me. LOL!

What is the correction for this? I jump forward every time, I just can't seem to break the habit. I've tried cleaning and snatching in front of a wall, I've hit people who bravely stood in front of me. Light weight, I'm fine, but as soon as I hit about 80% of my max, I'm jumping forward. Especially on the snatch.

the problem is the heels come up in the jump position/power position/2nd pull:
as seen here: http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_BergerSnatchesBWPlus.mov wfs
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4706/sn5n.png
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2531/sn7.png
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5193/sn6n.png
whenever ankle extension happens or when you rise up on your toes doing anything, the rising actually moves your tibia, femur and pelvis forward. when the bar is in this same area, the t,f,p movement forward displaces the bar forward as well. then they continue to extend onto their toes and it continues to displace the bar forward, launches it at an angle with more and more torque being added, rather than straight up and close.
so in able to catch it at the new location, they have to jump forward to get under it because they launched it forward. you'll see their heels come up from the ground right when the bar reaches mid thigh. the simple fix is just tell them to jump flat footed (which is very very difficult), or wait longer on going on the jump.
as seen with James: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1-BG3kMOos wfs
you'll also see this when their first pull, when the bar is travelling from ground to knee caps, that their shins extend past 90 degrees, which it shouldn't. there's usually fast rising hips too. so by the time theyre in the jumping position, the bar is very low, they jump, bar flyes forward.

Andrew Wilson
10-25-2010, 10:50 AM
then here's an example of extending shins passed 90 degrees: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHwaeHCQv1o wfs

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/5493/mattchansn1.png
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/482/mattchansn2.png
the bar's so low he has to throw his hips into it, rather then jump vertically

Greg Everett
10-25-2010, 12:51 PM
Greg, do you mean that to become more effective, with loads of or greater than bodyweight, a slight lean backwards (not a gross one) is needed, since with mass of that size, there would be the tendency to fall forward ?

yes, partly. you will not be able to snatch finishing in a vertical position unless the weight is relatively light. look at any of the videos andrew posted. notice the legs are approximately vertical, but the hips are hyperextended slightly to bring the shoulders considerably behind the bar/hips. this is what i teach. you can lean the body back as a whole slightly, but in order to make that balanced, you can't hyperextend the hips as much, which means you're giving up some of that hip extension power.

Jarod Barker
10-25-2010, 02:47 PM
then here's an example of extending shins passed 90 degrees: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHwaeHCQv1o wfs

the bar's so low he has to throw his hips into it, rather then jump vertically

Wow, I think that's exactly what I must be doing. Just goes to show how poor my proprioception is that I'm not even aware I'm doing it, but that looks like how snatch. Only I jump a lot farther forward. This is the trouble with trying to self-coach the lifts. There's just so many things to be aware of. Thank you very much for that explanation. I now have something to spend my broomstick warm up working on. I wonder if this is why snatches make my low back hurt as well... I can OHS without any pain, but I snatch a few reps and my back starts to hurt, I'm probably overextending my hips forward and torquing my low back. I would've never caught that, I just keep trying to jump backwards and missing.

Andrew Wilson
10-25-2010, 04:16 PM
Wow, I think that's exactly what I must be doing. Just goes to show how poor my proprioception is that I'm not even aware I'm doing it, but that looks like how snatch. Only I jump a lot farther forward. This is the trouble with trying to self-coach the lifts. There's just so many things to be aware of. Thank you very much for that explanation. I now have something to spend my broomstick warm up working on. I wonder if this is why snatches make my low back hurt as well... I can OHS without any pain, but I snatch a few reps and my back starts to hurt, I'm probably overextending my hips forward and torquing my low back. I would've never caught that, I just keep trying to jump backwards and missing.

yeah man, olympic weightlifting is super simple. its basic biomechanics, the body can accelerate the most mass by jumping. this is all weightlifting is, is getting your knees out of the way with the least movement so you can put the barbell in the jumping position, and jump while holding the barbell. you're never going to see someone do a vertical jump with their heels off the ground or with their knees locked backwards 120 degrees

Jarod Barker
10-25-2010, 11:23 PM
Hopefully I don't get ripped on too much for posting this, but... here's a pretty good sample of my lifting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBsPzjGH8s0

My technique hasn't changed much, if at all, since 2009. I can post newer stuff, but it's not as clear since I now train in my garage. Lighting sucks, but it's great having a 5 foot commute to the gym. I'm definitely one of the people who stand up on their toes though, I even do when I'm just warming up with the bar, I rise up on my toes. Need to fix that.

Brian DeGennaro
10-26-2010, 06:12 AM
To me, it looks like you're elbows are not coming high and out which is causing you to swing the bar out an inch or two, plus I don't think you're using your arms enough to pull under. JMO.

Are you intentionally driving through your toes with your calf muscles or are you just allowing your balance to shift onto your toes like you're supposed to?

Cuz currently Lu Xiaojun is the best snatcher in the world and he comes up on his toes:

http://themint400.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/antalya-2010wwc-day4-040.jpg

Jarod Barker
10-26-2010, 08:51 AM
To me, it looks like you're elbows are not coming high and out which is causing you to swing the bar out an inch or two, plus I don't think you're using your arms enough to pull under. JMO.

Are you intentionally driving through your toes with your calf muscles or are you just allowing your balance to shift onto your toes like you're supposed to?

Cuz currently Lu Xiaojun is the best snatcher in the world and he comes up on his toes:

http://themint400.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/antalya-2010wwc-day4-040.jpg

Wow that's some serious weight on that bar! :eek:

I'm not actively trying to come up on my toes, I think it just happens when I try to jump.

I don't think I pull under well, even when I clean. I try not to think about my arms so that I don't pull early, so I think what happens then is I end up pulling late. I tend to get overfocused on the wrong details. I'm not sure I even fully understand what you mean about the elbows, but I'll make a point to watch some other lifters and try to see the difference.

Andew Cattermole
10-26-2010, 04:33 PM
Try
Deeper tighter Set Position

Slower/tighter First Pull

Snatch High Pull Drills
Snatch High Pull to find your 'Sit Back"/elbow pop outside and high

Hold the Catch /Tighten up
Consider "getting quiet" in the Catch for 3 secs,tighten up,work depth,lift chest/Rise eyes

Do Singles with focus rather then multiples at Heavies

Hope that's useful

Pete Gordon
10-26-2010, 04:46 PM
I'm a big fan of pulls, since if you get the pull right, you're half way home.

My coach once told me that it takes around 10,000 reps to become somewhat of a decent liter (amongst other things). Getting in those 10,000 reps with a lighter weight, with small rest periods is obviously easier than.......with heavier weights & longer rest breaks.

Brian DeGennaro
10-26-2010, 05:36 PM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38313689@N00/4132935810/in/set-72157622747796923/

Like that photo of the Armenian. Basically, as our new resident OTC coach put it: "pull with your fists from your hip. Pull yourself under the bar. Quickly! While the bar is still going up."

Andrew Wilson
10-26-2010, 05:37 PM
Hopefully I don't get ripped on too much for posting this, but... here's a pretty good sample of my lifting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBsPzjGH8s0

My technique hasn't changed much, if at all, since 2009. I can post newer stuff, but it's not as clear since I now train in my garage. Lighting sucks, but it's great having a 5 foot commute to the gym. I'm definitely one of the people who stand up on their toes though, I even do when I'm just warming up with the bar, I rise up on my toes. Need to fix that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X2mT1Wm9zw WFS
1) looks like you're using way too much back to lift the bar off the ground, you can tell how the barpath in the 1st pull is just straight up & down. it should be pulled back at an angle. so this tells us the back is mainly pulling because it stays in the same y axis. when you "pull" with just knee extension in the 1st pull, the bar is brought back because of the change in shin angle. also check your hamstring flexibility.


2) when you begin & finish your jump, the bar is waay to low. is somewhat because of the back pull, somewhat because you're not jumping vertically up, and you're throwing your hips into it. the bar should be at the top of your pelvis when you extend tall.
3) check the width of your grip. with just the bar your grip is just right when the bar is level just an inch below the top of your pelvis. this is where the bar should jolt from
4) also check out the massive torque.

so the cues would be: check your grip width, focus more on total knee extension when bringing the bar past the knees, after the bar passes the knees do a tall, erect, vertical jump where the bar jolts from the top of the pelvis, not thighs. the higher it jolts from off the body, the closer it will be to the body on the lift off; the lower it jolts, the farther it goes away horizontally


pretty good reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0mnj2c_nCA wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMpksOYdKY wfs

Robert Callahan
10-26-2010, 09:15 PM
Hopefully I don't get ripped on too much for posting this, but... here's a pretty good sample of my lifting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBsPzjGH8s0

My technique hasn't changed much, if at all, since 2009. I can post newer stuff, but it's not as clear since I now train in my garage. Lighting sucks, but it's great having a 5 foot commute to the gym. I'm definitely one of the people who stand up on their toes though, I even do when I'm just warming up with the bar, I rise up on my toes. Need to fix that.

To add/reiterate what has been posted above:

You are banging the crap out of the bar with your hips and causing the bar to FLY away from your body. Look at your first couple reps and try to pause it right at the end of the 2nd pull, the bar is like a solid foot or two away from your body. This is less pronounced on the heavy reps because it is... heavier, but you can still see the bar get away from you and it is leading to the big jump forward on every rep.

The end of your second pull looks more like a Kettle bell swing than a vertical jump, which is a big problem.

Jarod Barker
10-26-2010, 11:54 PM
Wow! I can't thank you guys enough. I wish I would've posted this question a long time ago.

Andrew, that video you made is awesome. I can really see what you're talking about now. It's much easier in slow motion with reference lines.

Stop me if I'm misunderstanding, but I think maybe if I try to lean back more, I'll end up straight up and down since I'm too far forward now.

My hamstrings are ugly, but so are my quads. It's all the damned running and ruck marching. I stretch them every day, but anyone who has done a lot of ruck marching can tell you, it just binds everything up. I'll put some extra work into my hamstrings though.

The only problem I'm not even sure how to address is grip. I'm built weird. I'm 5' 8" ish, maybe 5'9" and I'm nearly collar to collar on my grip already. I'm not sure I can go much wider and still have the grip strength at that angle. I'll work on it with just the bar, but I'm not sure I can get wide enough.

I take huge jumps on my clean as well. So, I'm guessing that probably because I'm making the same mistakes there and banging the bar off my hip instead of pulling up and under?

Pete Gordon
10-27-2010, 04:31 AM
Good work Andrew!! Could you do your magic on one of my vids?!

Andrew Wilson
10-27-2010, 09:17 AM
Stop me if I'm misunderstanding, but I think maybe if I try to lean back more, I'll end up straight up and down since I'm too far forward now.



that may potentially add more to the problem, because it could add more horizont force to the bar. the best thing to do would be just seperate the snatch if you're doing it weekly. instead of doing full snatches, do high hang snatches (bar at top pelvis) and focus on jumping vertically, like you see James doing here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hb_IrUyCLw wfs at 0:35, keeping the bar as close as possible, keeping the torque to a minimum, and just using the half squat, then jumping into the platform to accelerate the bar. this should keep the bar accelerating up line, and also done with 65-75% max and with dead arms, just the jumping should be the main force generator. once you hit a great a snatch you'll feel it, the bar will pretty much be weightless and you'll just fall under it. then after hangs snatches, snatch deadlifts, but at weight 65-80% and just focus on knee extension in the 1st pull. 65-75% is a very good load to clean up technique with and foster speed-strength.

good videos to mimic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uYs7yLTk5c wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMpksOYdKY wfs


My hamstrings are ugly, but so are my quads. It's all the damned running and ruck marching. I stretch them every day, but anyone who has done a lot of ruck marching can tell you, it just binds everything up. I'll put some extra work into my hamstrings though.

that's very interesting, because the added ruck in the movement adds an isometric contraction to the truck and legs to stabilized the weight, so the training effect in those areas is very stiff, inelastic, static, slow, muscle contractions, with a limited range of motion. the same with the marching rhythm. this is completely non beneficial in dynamic and explosive movements & to running; and will sabotage the force generation in your running strides and the the strides' range motion because lack of acceleration, lack stride length, and static contractions effects the stretch-shortening cycle.

Andrew Wilson
10-27-2010, 09:21 AM
Good work Andrew!! Could you do your magic on one of my vids?!

sure man! have one on youtube?

Jarod Barker
10-27-2010, 10:54 AM
that may potentially add more to the problem, because it could add more horizont force to the bar. the best thing to do would be just seperate the snatch if you're doing it weekly. instead of doing full snatches, do high hang snatches (bar at top pelvis) and focus on jumping vertically, like you see James doing here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hb_IrUyCLw wfs at 0:35, keeping the bar as close as possible, keeping the torque to a minimum, and just using the half squat, then jumping into the platform to accelerate the bar. this should keep the bar accelerating up line, and also done with 65-75% max and with dead arms, just the jumping should be the main force generator. once you hit a great a snatch you'll feel it, the bar will pretty much be weightless and you'll just fall under it. then after hangs snatches, snatch deadlifts, but at weight 65-80% and just focus on knee extension in the 1st pull. 65-75% is a very good load to clean up technique with and foster speed-strength.

good videos to mimic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uYs7yLTk5c wfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMpksOYdKY wfs



that's very interesting, because the added ruck in the movement adds an isometric contraction to the truck and legs to stabilized the weight, so the training effect in those areas is very stiff, inelastic, static, slow, muscle contractions, with a limited range of motion. the same with the marching rhythm. this is completely non beneficial in dynamic and explosive movements & to running; and will sabotage the force generation in your running strides and the the strides' range motion because lack of acceleration, lack stride length, and static contractions effects the stretch-shortening cycle.

Thanks again Andrew, I think I've learned more in this thread than I've been able to figure out in the past year. I think I actually don't jump forward on hang snatches. I'll pay close attention, but you're right, I should focus on those. I guess I've never hit a great snatch. I weigh about 155 lbs, and the first time I ever snatched, I hit 135, and within a month I was hitting 155. And then I just never progressed... It must have been all that damned @Fit.

I see what you're saying when I look at those videos in slow motion, I think what I'm doing is trying so hard not to shoot my hips up and end up in an L position that I'm lifting with my back instead of just staying straight. So, I'll try to focus in the snatch deadlift on keeping my trunk stable and lifting with my legs.

The ruck marching really sucks, it just screws everything else up. I'm not doing any right now since I injured my foot at the end of June, but I'm sure I'll have to do more of it in the future. I enjoy O lifting though. I just suck at it. :rolleyes: In any case, I'd be really happy though if I could just get good enough at O lifting that it improved my vertical jump. There's this really nasty obstacle called The Dirty Name, and it is my nemesis because I jump about as well as a sumo wrestler.

Rolando Rodriguez
10-27-2010, 12:00 PM
I would suggest using your lats to keep the bar closer throughout the pull. The slight camera angle may be playing tricks with me, but the bar seems to stay over your forefoot or toes the entire time! The lats pulling the bar in would help center things over the midfoot, where better mechanics tend to happen. And "use your lats" of course doesn't mean "bend your elbows early". I'd also suggest being more patient with the transition between the 1st and 2nd pull; let the bar come up a little higher on the leg before you jump/catapult/thrust/shimmy.

To reiterate what others have said:

As far as controlling shin angle: flat-footed. This is the cue that has helped me cure the same problem. You'll notice your toes come up around 0:17 of the slo-mo vid. Try to keep full contact with the floor throughout the first pull, as lifting the toes up and excessive shin angle go together.

Also, you seem to be *too* sold on locked arms, to the point where you sometimes don't bend them at all in the 3rd pull/pull-under. This reinforces the arcing that starts with the hip bang on the bar. Compare your 125 snatch at 1:45 to the one at 2:00; the first one sees you with a better 3rd pull using the arms. Of course, this is a bit chicken-and-egg, as correcting the 1st/2nd pull will lead to a closer bar for the 3rd pull, which facilitates a proper non-arcing pull-under using the arms... Make sure to reinforce good behavior when you bring the bar down. Don't bring the bar down from overhead in an arc with locked arms. Let your arms bend and let the bar come down as close to your body as possible.

My less than $0.02.

Pete Gordon
10-27-2010, 04:50 PM
sure man! have one on youtube?


here you go mate. I'd much appreciate your feedback & insight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfzQhlP2ZpI

Other vids I have are complete rubbish :)



I"m glad I started this thread. I think getting the triple extension has a lot to do with the lift being succesful or not.

Jarod Barker
10-27-2010, 11:29 PM
I would suggest using your lats to keep the bar closer throughout the pull. The slight camera angle may be playing tricks with me, but the bar seems to stay over your forefoot or toes the entire time! The lats pulling the bar in would help center things over the midfoot, where better mechanics tend to happen. And "use your lats" of course doesn't mean "bend your elbows early". I'd also suggest being more patient with the transition between the 1st and 2nd pull; let the bar come up a little higher on the leg before you jump/catapult/thrust/shimmy.

To reiterate what others have said:

As far as controlling shin angle: flat-footed. This is the cue that has helped me cure the same problem. You'll notice your toes come up around 0:17 of the slo-mo vid. Try to keep full contact with the floor throughout the first pull, as lifting the toes up and excessive shin angle go together.

Also, you seem to be *too* sold on locked arms, to the point where you sometimes don't bend them at all in the 3rd pull/pull-under. This reinforces the arcing that starts with the hip bang on the bar. Compare your 125 snatch at 1:45 to the one at 2:00; the first one sees you with a better 3rd pull using the arms. Of course, this is a bit chicken-and-egg, as correcting the 1st/2nd pull will lead to a closer bar for the 3rd pull, which facilitates a proper non-arcing pull-under using the arms... Make sure to reinforce good behavior when you bring the bar down. Don't bring the bar down from overhead in an arc with locked arms. Let your arms bend and let the bar come down as close to your body as possible.

My less than $0.02.

I think the locked arms is another example of my over focusing on the wrong details. I try so hard to not pull early that I end up pulling late or not at all. Maybe I should focus on some muscle snatches to exaggerate the pull?

I tried a few snatches and cleans today and attempted to use these mechanics. It definitely had an immediate improvement on my clean. I must have hit one right because it was only 60kg, but it felt so light for a split second I thought I must've done something wrong. The snatch is still very difficult. I just drilled some hang snatches with the bar trying to really focus on that vertical extension instead of banging the bar off my hips. It's hard enough to learn these things to begin with, and now I'm trying to unlearn 2 years of bad habits.

Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone for all the help!

By the way, Andrew, what program do you use to make that video? Is that something anyone can pick up?

Pete Gordon
10-28-2010, 12:12 AM
Chad, something that's drilled into us at our club I'd to focus on a maximum three things when doing a lift. Those three things can be whatever you like.

For me, I focus on getting my shins in the right spot, a big shrug at the top as well as splitting my feet a reasonable distance. I don't think I could think of any more than three things.

What three things could you think of ?

Andrew Wilson
10-28-2010, 09:14 AM
here you go mate. I'd much appreciate your feedback & insight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfzQhlP2ZpI

Other vids I have are complete rubbish :)



I"m glad I started this thread. I think getting the triple extension has a lot to do with the lift being succesful or not.

your's looks pretty good, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jaVgvjU8dc wfs it'll be interesting to see what happens when you go higher in the weight; in the 2nd clean looks like there may be some premature arm pulling (rather than jump from jumping position) at the knee & that'll really hinder the bar height, but that could be something you just did in that one rep. so it'll be interesting to see higher up. you can see how tall & vertical you stay in the extension pertaining to your original post, that's really really good - that really gives you a slick and efficient drop under the bar making your 3rd FAST, and that's going to be a huge pay off in the snatch.

an example: http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4396/tumblrl8ba8imuyr1qa2twx.png the difference between places in 56kg, 1st is long qingquan, then down the rankings I believe, I think one of those dudes may be ahead of another when I made this. but the blue line is torque & barpath, green line shoulder displacement from the starting position. long qingquan has a significant advantage. he's taller vertically, with some back lean, but is so much closer to the bar, everyone else back bends like crazy and you can immediately see how torque is added to the barpath (it going forward). that's the difference between his back lean versus the rest. he doesn't quite lean forward as you suggested in the original post, but tall, fast under, super super close to bar. and you can see how immediately he gets under the bar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXm8LDYc3vE wfs vs this savage revolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giEk2wJRyfM wfs that takes forever

pretty good example in the clean: http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2640/tumblrl6wwc3aw5h1qa2twx.jpg
tall vertically and close

another thing is if you watch qingquan & xiaojun on video in real time versus everyone else, there is a significant speed difference when they get under, they look to be 2x faster

Andrew Wilson
10-28-2010, 09:23 AM
By the way, Andrew, what program do you use to make that video? Is that something anyone can pick up?

kinovea, yah you can download the trial version on their website for free

Brian DeGennaro
10-28-2010, 03:41 PM
Xiaojun is probably the best lifter to watch IMO. It's just beautiful and effortless every time, just like it should be. He changes directions immediately every time.

Andrew Wilson
10-28-2010, 06:57 PM
Xiaojun is probably the best lifter to watch IMO. It's just beautiful and effortless every time, just like it should be. He changes directions immediately every time.

His speed is fuching tremendous! it's like he teleports the bar overhead

Jarod Barker
10-28-2010, 07:31 PM
Chad, something that's drilled into us at our club I'd to focus on a maximum three things when doing a lift. Those three things can be whatever you like.

For me, I focus on getting my shins in the right spot, a big shrug at the top as well as splitting my feet a reasonable distance. I don't think I could think of any more than three things.

What three things could you think of ?

3 things is about all I could think of at once. That sounds like a very good rule of thumb. I hate when someone tries to coach me and goes "do this and this and this and this and don't do this, this, and this, and focus on this." It's just too many things at once.

I think the 3 things I need to focus on are lifting with my legs not my back, waiting later to jump so that the bar travels vertical instead of banging off my hips, and pulling aggressively under the bar, since I have a tendency to not use my arms till it's too late.

Jarod Barker
10-28-2010, 07:34 PM
kinovea, yah you can download the trial version on their website for free

Awesome, thanks! I just thought I might play with that on a few videos.

Wanna hear something really sad? I looked at a few of my girlfriend's cleans, and her technique is far better than mine... Sucks to think I coached her to do something I can't.

Brian DeGennaro
10-28-2010, 09:12 PM
His speed is fuching tremendous! it's like he teleports the bar overhead

He reminds me of Zakharevich a lot. Maybe we will see a 182 snatch by a 77 one of these days.

Pete Gordon
10-29-2010, 12:11 AM
He reminds me of Zakharevich a lot. Maybe we will see a 182 snatch by a 77 one of these days.



that'd be awesome to see.

Rolando Rodriguez
10-29-2010, 01:05 PM
Nice analysis, Andrew. It's interesting to note that Long gets more of the classic
"S-pull" trajectory. The other lifters exhibit what I've started to call the "question
mark" or "sickle" trajectory, with a more pronounced horizontal component after the
2nd pull.

To Chad:

I try to remind myself that the snatch should finish with a "jerk", just as a muscle
snatch finishes with a press. See these pictures to see what I mean:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bklemens/4223275270/in/set-72157623093392252/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bklemens/4223275402/in/set-72157623093392252/
And a slo-mo vid of Aramnau too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuO3IbzSj8Q
The vid of Lu Yong Andrew posted shows this as well.

Notice that the bar gets overhead with *bent* arms and you then push up on the bar
to lock out the arms. This will push you into the bottom of the squat and slow the
bar's descent for the receipt. This will never happen if you just loop the bar with
straight arms. And the more horizontally the bar is moving at the top, the harder this
becomes as well. Snatch balances can help develop this feeling of pushing under the bar,
but the key is having a 2nd pull that lets you act more vertically on the bar at the top.

Jarod Barker
10-29-2010, 07:01 PM
Nice analysis, Andrew. It's interesting to note that Long gets more of the classic
"S-pull" trajectory. The other lifters exhibit what I've started to call the "question
mark" or "sickle" trajectory, with a more pronounced horizontal component after the
2nd pull.

To Chad:

I try to remind myself that the snatch should finish with a "jerk", just as a muscle
snatch finishes with a press. See these pictures to see what I mean:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bklemens/4223275270/in/set-72157623093392252/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bklemens/4223275402/in/set-72157623093392252/
And a slo-mo vid of Aramnau too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuO3IbzSj8Q
The vid of Lu Yong Andrew posted shows this as well.

Notice that the bar gets overhead with *bent* arms and you then push up on the bar
to lock out the arms. This will push you into the bottom of the squat and slow the
bar's descent for the receipt. This will never happen if you just loop the bar with
straight arms. And the more horizontally the bar is moving at the top, the harder this
becomes as well. Snatch balances can help develop this feeling of pushing under the bar,
but the key is having a 2nd pull that lets you act more vertically on the bar at the top.

I guess I never felt that because there's so much horizontal movement when I snatch. Thank you very much for that explanation. It's very clear to see it in the pictures and video, and that makes sense that you would push yourself under the bar which would "soften" the catch instead of the weight just crashing down on your locked arms. I definitely need to work on the muscle snatches and hang snatches to get this bar moving more vertical.

Eduardo Chile
11-10-2010, 05:42 PM
Hey All,

I'm trying to get help on my clean form as well. I'm having a hard time figuring out if I'm doing ok. I do know I pull with my arms at times and don't wait long enough. It has proven difficult trying to teach myself. Anyways hopes someone can give me some advice. The information in this thread is invaluable.

Clean 135 Form Check (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhL9M1MfWXw)

Clean 165 Form Check (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzt3TNJQRMk)

Power Clean 185 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BXftsAmVmE)

Power Clean 200 Fail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tvBBOF2If4)

Andrew Wilson
11-11-2010, 08:49 AM
Hey All,

I'm trying to get help on my clean form as well. I'm having a hard time figuring out if I'm doing ok. I do know I pull with my arms at times and don't wait long enough. It has proven difficult trying to teach myself. Anyways hopes someone can give me some advice. The information in this thread is invaluable.

Clean 135 Form Check (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhL9M1MfWXw)

Clean 165 Form Check (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzt3TNJQRMk)

Power Clean 185 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BXftsAmVmE)

Power Clean 200 Fail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tvBBOF2If4)

Looks pretty good, if anything there's just a little bit of hip being thrown into the bar and you'll see your body bend in extension, but that's about it. This looks good: http://www.youtube.com/user/PermanentBulk#p/u/0/rzt3TNJQRMk & http://www.youtube.com/user/PermanentBulk#p/u/5/_BXftsAmVmE wfs the speed will come in a few weeks

Eduardo Chile
11-11-2010, 02:48 PM
Thanks Andrew. I appreciate the comments. I'm starting to incorporate some hang cleans to help with full extension.

Keith Miller
11-15-2010, 08:44 AM
I would try and get your knees further over the bar at the start. You are sitting on your heels, and your weight needs to be a bit more forward. You are basically deadlifting the weight to the knees, pulling with your back, where you should be pushing the floor away from you by driving with the legs.

This may not make much sense, and I hope someone can come behind and clear it up a little.

glennpendlay
11-16-2010, 02:00 AM
One of the biggest things that I emphasise both in my Pendlay seminars and at the USAW coaching certifications that I teach is that the knees need to be over the bar at teh start, with the weight toward the front of the foot. By the time the bar gets to the knee, the weight should be on the heels, with the shins near vertical.