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James Evans
10-26-2010, 04:52 AM
This must be 2 years old now but I stumbled across a link to it yesterday. I've really not taken too much notice of CrossFit Endurance other than seeing the DNF remarks on different sites.

Wow! What a humble guy...

http://gregbashore.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/the-most-dangerous-man-in-endurance-training/

I particularly like the idea of of taking a world champion and completely changing the way he trains/who he is because you know better

Hmm, and you complete an Iron Man 2 hours slower than Chrissie Wellington but hey, what's her Fran time.

Geoffrey Thompson
10-26-2010, 06:49 AM
I particularly like the idea of of taking a world champion and completely changing the way he trains/who he is because you know better

Right, but it'll take a couple years before he sees any results and he might get slower in the mean time.

James Evans
10-26-2010, 07:21 AM
But he provides a caveat in case of disappointment:

Unfortunately, he probably wouldn’t be able to wrap his head around that, and have a break down, and secretly go out and swim/bike/run real long. I can’t give you his code for training because they are all different, but I can tell you he would not only not survive with me but would not win Kona if I only had a year.

He can't handle the truth!

Garrett Smith
10-26-2010, 01:37 PM
They would use the year to mentally prep him for disappointment across broad time and modal domains.

Derek Weaver
10-26-2010, 02:46 PM
Wait a second, that McCormack guy has won what I would assume is a big race (Kona) in the past, but he couldn't handle Bmack's angle? Is that because he wants to, you know, win?

Seriously, how can you tout something as superior, when the opening paragraph says you'll finish a few hours behind your competitors? Racing just to finish is fine, but is CFE even necessary just to cross the finish line?

Garrett Smith
10-26-2010, 03:15 PM
Until CFE has built their own champion from near-scratch, the fact that people believe them is due to people's own stupidity and ability to fall for bombastic marketing.

Still waiting to hear about the pro or college teams in any sport attributing their dominance over even a two-year period to CF.

Derek Weaver
10-26-2010, 03:23 PM
I really enjoy the part about metcon being the most important aspect of their training.

Nothing like a 5 minute vomit fest to simulate the rigors of a 100 mile, 8+ hour race.

Who needs specificity anyway? Other than champions I mean.

Garrett Smith
10-26-2010, 03:29 PM
The way I see it, if the great Dan John was duped by CF, then I shouldn't feel too bad about falling for it for a while too.

For some people, the perception of effort is more important to them than the results. Note that the first group isn't typically the winning group.

Derek Weaver
10-26-2010, 03:49 PM
You speak definitely speak the truth.

If the first group is the winning group, they're usually fairly quiet about what they're doing. No need to talk it up if you're already at the top of the podium.

Not just actions, but results, speak louder than words.

Gant Grimes
10-26-2010, 04:34 PM
If Chris McCormack came to you and said “I want to win Kona this year (again)” how would you train him?

I’d tell him I can’t train him. An athlete like that is such a specialist that it would take me 2-3 years just to get him moving correctly enough to handle what I wanted to do to him.

vs.

Uhhh...what'd you do last year when you won the damn thing? Cool. Do that again.

Then again, I'm not very smart.

Derek Weaver
10-26-2010, 04:40 PM
Quote:
If Chris McCormack came to you and said “I want to win Kona this year (again)” how would you train him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFE
I’d tell him I can’t train him. An athlete like that is such a specialist that it would take me 2-3 years just to get him moving correctly enough to handle what I wanted to do to him.
vs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Uhhh...what'd you do last year when you won the damn thing? Cool. Do that again.
Then again, I'm not very smart.

I just picked up on something else.
"..it would take me 2-3 years just to get him moving correctly enough to handle what I wanted to do to him."

What is he going to do to him?

A coach shouldn't be doing anything to his/her athletes right? Did I miss something growing up?

Garrett Smith
10-26-2010, 05:09 PM
http://www.sallysfriends.net/Pix/Ivan_Drago_v_Rocky.jpg
New client/couch meeting.

Client: I want you to train me. I'm the best in the world at what I do, and I think I can do better.

CFE Couch: I vill break you. You vill either not finish races or finish hours behind ze leaders. You vill not be able to handle the verkouts I vant you to do for 2 to 3 years.

Client: Um...yeah, that's not what I was looking for at all.

Derek Weaver
10-26-2010, 05:46 PM
http://www.sallysfriends.net/Pix/Ivan_Drago_v_Rocky.jpg
New client/couch meeting.

Client: I want you to train me. I'm the best in the world at what I do, and I think I can do better.

CFE Couch: I vill break you. You vill either not finish races or finish hours behind ze leaders. You vill not be able to handle the verkouts I vant you to do for 2 to 3 years.

Client: Um...yeah, that's not what I was looking for at all.

Nicely played.

Arien Malec
10-26-2010, 05:55 PM
He placed 89th in the Western States 100, and there are 369 starters, so the dude's elite place is about 75% of the starters. I'd bet that's not even the top third of men.

Don't get me wrong, that's an insane race, and just getting a buckle is a pretty awesome accomplishment. But, uhh, what?? From the CFE website "This program only requires 6-8 hours per week to COMPETE at Ultra/Ironman distances.)"...

Tanner Cook
10-26-2010, 05:57 PM
how come they can't win by just being "unscared" ?

Gant Grimes
10-26-2010, 07:03 PM
* Angeles Crest 100 mile run, 2007 34th 27:39
* Western States 100 mile run, 2006, 89th, 26:47
* Mt Disappointment 50k run, 2006, 26th, 5:47:11
* Ironman Canada 2004 478th, 11:33:47

The article was written a few months ago. What were the finishes after starting CFE?

Derek Weaver
10-26-2010, 07:09 PM
The article was written a few months ago. What were the finishes after starting CFE?

That would assume the race was actually completed. DNF is the new gold medal winner.

Geoffrey Thompson
10-26-2010, 08:13 PM
He placed 89th in the Western States 100, and there are 369 starters, so the dude's elite place is about 75% of the starters. I'd bet that's not even the top third of men.

Don't get me wrong, that's an insane race, and just getting a buckle is a pretty awesome accomplishment. But, uhh, what?? From the CFE website "This program only requires 6-8 hours per week to COMPETE at Ultra/Ironman distances.)"...
One thing I would say, though, is that if CFE training truly can get you to finish an ultra/ironman in a time that isn't completely embarrassing in 6-8 hours per week, I think that sounds like a very good thing for a recreational amateur. The status quo is to get divorced to support your ultra habit unless your partner really likes chafed nipples and black toenails.

Arien Malec
10-26-2010, 08:29 PM
One thing I would say, though, is that if CFE training truly can get you to finish an ultra/ironman in a time that isn't completely embarrassing in 6-8 hours per week, I think that sounds like a very good thing for a recreational amateur. The status quo is to get divorced to support your ultra habit unless your partner really likes chafed nipples and black toenails.

No doubt, and if that was what the CFE marketing actually said, cool. Whether it's true for someone who hasn't already put in the miles is a different question.

But CFE says you can get competitive in 6-8 hours/week, and that's a shit from a totally different breed of bull.

Jarod Barker
10-27-2010, 12:05 AM
One thing I would say, though, is that if CFE training truly can get you to finish an ultra/ironman in a time that isn't completely embarrassing in 6-8 hours per week, I think that sounds like a very good thing for a recreational amateur. The status quo is to get divorced to support your ultra habit unless your partner really likes chafed nipples and black toenails.

I think CFE would work great for a recreational athlete. I mean, look at marathons, most people are walking them at some point and just trying to muster enough energy to finish it. Even triathlons. Your recreational weekend triathlete is just looking to finish. If you want to win, you have to log the miles, the laps, and the hours.

I am by no means elite, not even close. But in my preparation, 2 mile swims and 6 mile runs were normal and performed weekly. Sure there was strength work and sprint work on other days, but I usually had at least one long swim of at least 4000 yds and at least one long-ish run, usually around 5 miles per week. Occasionally a 15K, and sometimes longer swims, but I think past results show us that you have to put the time and work in. I'm sure Lance Armstrong isn't doing one tabata workout a day.

Shane Skowron
10-28-2010, 08:17 AM
He placed 89th in the Western States 100, and there are 369 starters, so the dude's elite place is about 75% of the starters. I'd bet that's not even the top third of men.

Don't get me wrong, that's an insane race, and just getting a buckle is a pretty awesome accomplishment. But, uhh, what?? From the CFE website "This program only requires 6-8 hours per week to COMPETE at Ultra/Ironman distances.)"...

1. He didn't get a buckle at Western States.
2. Placing in the top 25% of North America's most prestigious ultramarathon isn't bad. I wouldn't consider it highly competitive though. I'm also not convinced he was following the same CFE protocol that is advocated now when he trained for that.

The article was written a few months ago. What were the finishes after starting CFE?

The article is several years old now. As far as I know Brian has not finished a 100 since AC100.

James Evans
10-29-2010, 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Gant Grimes
The article was written a few months ago. What were the finishes after starting CFE?
He's the same age as you and me. The article said he was 34 at the time, so two years ago.

Adrian Miles
11-07-2010, 01:49 AM
No doubt, and if that was what the CFE marketing actually said, cool. Whether it's true for someone who hasn't already put in the miles is a different question.

But CFE says you can get competitive in 6-8 hours/week, and that's a shit from a totally different breed of bull.

I think I've heard of one athlete who hadn't been logging the miles before embarking on CFE. (And they may have been a marine or other army type). In a lot of the athletes that were using CFE and publicising it on the forum over there many of them would drop in a long run, ride or brick workout.

I believe McCormack knows how to use his hips in the correct manner too.

Steve Shafley
11-07-2010, 07:40 PM
At this point it's painfully obvious that CFE protocols don't work.

Shane Skowron
11-08-2010, 07:42 AM
At this point it's painfully obvious that CFE protocols don't work.

It depends what you want it to do for you. Generally I would agree that it's not the best way to prepare for most endurance events although that doesn't mean it doesn't work at all. The reason people can't take it seriously is mostly because it's claimed that it's superior than all other programs or that it's adequate for competition.

Geoffrey Thompson
11-08-2010, 11:39 AM
At this point it's painfully obvious that CFE protocols don't work.

The specter of championing a fitness program without clearly defining what it is that the program delivers combines elements of fraud and farce. That's an old CrossFit line from the infamous Girevik interview. However, championing a fitness program that does not deliver what it claims to deliver truly combines elements of fraud and farce...

Garrett Smith
11-08-2010, 01:04 PM
The specter of championing a fitness program without clearly defining what it is that the program delivers combines elements of fraud and farce. That's an old CrossFit line from the infamous Girevik interview. However, championing a fitness program that does not deliver what it claims to deliver truly combines elements of fraud and farce...
Ouch. That one is going to leave a mark.

Steve Shafley
11-09-2010, 10:07 AM
CFE does not deliver.

It's a clear cut case of using inappropriate tools for the job.

You don't get better at running, swimming, or biking by doing short metcons, or even long metcons.

All of those activities require a certain amount of skill and adaptations.

That bit from the Girivek magazine is gold. Tyler Hass is a damned crybaby though, and regularly reads the "couch" thread on IGx and reports to Crossfit HQ.

Shane Skowron
11-09-2010, 11:59 AM
You don't get better at running, swimming, or biking by doing short metcons, or even long metcons.


Depends on the level of conditioning the person is at. If it's anywhere near elite level, no way. Below that, it hcan elp. Untrained people can get better at just about anything with almost any aerobic exercise.

Improvements in VO2Max, strength, and muscular endurance may not have great carryover but there is some carryover, which will work up to a certain point. I'm sure Lance Armstrong would agree, having done very little running training before putting up a 3 hour marathon. I've met a couple rowers who did no running and yet could run a pretty fast 1-2 miles.

I agree that metcons should not be the basis of an endurance program, however.

Jarod Barker
11-09-2010, 01:17 PM
Depends on the level of conditioning the person is at. If it's anywhere near elite level, no way. Below that, it hcan elp. Untrained people can get better at just about anything with almost any aerobic exercise.

Improvements in VO2Max, strength, and muscular endurance may not have great carryover but there is some carryover, which will work up to a certain point. I'm sure Lance Armstrong would agree, having done very little running training before putting up a 3 hour marathon. I've met a couple rowers who did no running and yet could run a pretty fast 1-2 miles.

I agree that metcons should not be the basis of an endurance program, however.

Lance Armstrong is a great example. I hadn't thought of that. Arguably one of the best endurance athletes in the world, yet change the demand from cycling to running and he really struggled. It's not for lack of conditioning, it's lack of specificity.

You make a good point about beginners as well. Beginners improve no matter what program you put them on. When my girlfriend decided she was going to workout with me, I just put her on Starting Strength. Her lifts were jumping 10 pounds a week for I can't remember how long. I was stunned, I never made that kind of progress, but then I had to remind myself, it's that novel stimulus. Beginners make gains on any program because something is always better than nothing.

I think the issue here though is not about beginners. The article claims that CFE can make you elite or even improve already elite athletes if they're willing to go backwards first for a couple years. The evidence just isn't there though. The elite endurance athletes of the world are still plugging the miles, swimming the laps, and cycling for hours on end. If the CFE protocol really was the "BEST" protocol, I think you would see it more widely used. That being said... I don't think the CFE programming is completely without merit, but just that in the case of this article, it does not deliver what it claims.

In any case, Shane, didn't you run an ultramarathon at one point? I thought remembered seeing that on the NSC forum. How did you prepare for it? I'm assuming you didn't follow CFE, but I'm interested in what you found worked best.

Shane Skowron
11-09-2010, 02:21 PM
Lance Armstrong is a great example. I hadn't thought of that. Arguably one of the best endurance athletes in the world, yet change the demand from cycling to running and he really struggled. It's not for lack of conditioning, it's lack of specificity.


I wouldn't say he struggled. He finished in under 3 hours with not a lot of training. Most people who finish under 3 hours usually have several years of consistent and competitive running under their belts before they manage that feat. He didn't come close to winning, but the point here is that he already had a huge advantage over other people who have no background in running.


In any case, Shane, didn't you run an ultramarathon at one point? I thought remembered seeing that on the NSC forum. How did you prepare for it? I'm assuming you didn't follow CFE, but I'm interested in what you found worked best.

I've done a bunch of ultramarathons, never DNF'd. I've done a 100 miler while following a strict CFE protocol and a 100 miler on my own training program, and I did better in the latter. Basically my running training consists of a long very slow run at ultramarathon pace, 1 long interval session, 1 short interval session, and sprinting session. Sometimes only 2 or 3 sessions per week. I wish I could run more but I have other training priorities.

Jarod Barker
11-09-2010, 11:08 PM
I wouldn't say he struggled. He finished in under 3 hours with not a lot of training. Most people who finish under 3 hours usually have several years of consistent and competitive running under their belts before they manage that feat. He didn't come close to winning, but the point here is that he already had a huge advantage over other people who have no background in running.



I've done a bunch of ultramarathons, never DNF'd. I've done a 100 miler while following a strict CFE protocol and a 100 miler on my own training program, and I did better in the latter. Basically my running training consists of a long very slow run at ultramarathon pace, 1 long interval session, 1 short interval session, and sprinting session. Sometimes only 2 or 3 sessions per week. I wish I could run more but I have other training priorities.

Point taken on Lance. Compared to other people he did incredibly well, compared to Lance Armstrong the champion who everyone is used to seeing win, I guess it looks less than impressive by comparison to all his Tour de France performances.

I've never run an ultramarathon let alone a marathon, so I have no basis for comparison, but for the 3 mile run in Marine Corps PFT, I did find that LSD improved my time more than CFE. Following CFE only, I ran a 22:33, and following a program by Hal Higdon, I ran an 18:53. Perhaps this is because I was not used to setting a pace, or maybe it's because I just needed the mental preparation of running longer distances than 400m at a time. In your experience running much longer distances, what do you think is the reason your personal training program worked better than CFE? I realize that individualizing a program is always going to be superior to a general program, but I was wondering if maybe you found that the longer sessions or pace setting sessions had sort of "grease the groove" effect on your performance.

Andrew Wilson
11-10-2010, 10:23 AM
This must be 2 years old now but I stumbled across a link to it yesterday. I've really not taken too much notice of CrossFit Endurance other than seeing the DNF remarks on different sites.

Wow! What a humble guy...

http://gregbashore.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/the-most-dangerous-man-in-endurance-training/

I particularly like the idea of of taking a world champion and completely changing the way he trains/who he is because you know better

Hmm, and you complete an Iron Man 2 hours slower than Chrissie Wellington but hey, what's her Fran time.

=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPpjURtM5OI wfs

Andrew Wilson
11-10-2010, 02:18 PM
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1042/gg2o.png

Matt Cricchio
11-10-2010, 07:45 PM
Strong work. But what, exactly, was the fucking point of all of that?

James Evans
11-11-2010, 02:19 AM
=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPpjURtM5OI wfs

About 16 seconds in - is that Glassman having the gin demon exorcised out of him?

Jacob Rowell
11-11-2010, 06:33 AM
Strong work. But what, exactly, was the fucking point of all of that?

Can't imagine why you would expect this to have a point, stay on topic, or offer anything helpful.

Derek Weaver
11-11-2010, 03:23 PM
Strong work. But what, exactly, was the fucking point of all of that?

Your standards and expectations are too high.

Andrew Wilson
11-12-2010, 04:42 AM
You should show more respect to who you talk to on the internet, you may not know who you're talking to, I've trained two years under the CrossFit training methodology, which means I have elite fitness capcacities, unf*ckablewith, and know more than you. Screw the development of over 90 years of doctoral research of sports science, exercise science, exercise physiology, kiniesiology, and biomechanics, screw the span of 467 Olympic gold medals over 44 years, screw those people that can run a mile in 3:20, and those decathletes that can bench press 330 pounds, squat 600 pounds, powerclean 152kg for reps with a 44in standing vertical jump, and 10 second 100m and 3:40 mile at a bodyweight of 185 pounds, screw them; those people don't know what they're doing or talking about, its a joke and laughable. You see, they're specialists and have limited capacities across modal functional domains, this means nothing when the time comes to throw a log over a field, drag a tracker tire 50 feet with a crowbar, or carry a sand bag across a tennis court stadium because they don't train work capcacity and metabolic conditioning. A 10 second 100m sprinter can't do that, nor those decathletes, nor those 45 second 400m sprinters that can squat 600 pounds... but I can. I train across broad time and modal domains, I have 2 minute Grace with 135 pounds which means I can lift more bags of trash into a garbage truck faster than 98% of the human beings on this planet. Screw a 3:25 mile over 10,000m like those unfit olympic champions and their phd coaches that know pointless exercise science, they can't deadlift 700 pounds, therefore are useless in the REAL world, its better to run a 17 minute mile over a hundred miles and be able to snatch 150 pounds like me. Because of this, I'm a better athlete then them, fitter, stronger, higher quantity of mental toughness, and physically more experienced. So before you exercise challenge me on the intranet, do your research on who you are talking to, because you may run into the Achilles of fitness.

Matt Cricchio
11-12-2010, 06:43 AM
You should show more respect to who you talk to on the internet, you may not know who you're talking to, I've trained two years under the CrossFit training methodology, which means I have elite fitness capcacities, unf*ckablewith, and know more than you. Screw the development of over 90 years of doctoral research of sports science, exercise science, exercise physiology, kiniesiology, and biomechanics, screw the span of 467 Olympic gold medals over 44 years, screw those people that can run a mile in 3:20, and those decathletes that can bench press 330 pounds, squat 600 pounds, powerclean 152kg for reps with a 44in standing vertical jump, and 10 second 100m and 3:40 mile at a bodyweight of 185 pounds, screw them; those people don't know what they're doing or talking about, its a joke and laughable. You see, they're specialists and have limited capacities across modal functional domains, this means nothing when the time comes to throw a log over a field, drag a tracker tire 50 feet with a crowbar, or carry a sand bag across a tennis court stadium because they don't train work capcacity and metabolic conditioning. A 10 second 100m sprinter can't do that, nor those decathletes, nor those 45 second 400m sprinters that can squat 600 pounds... but I can. I train across broad time and modal domains, I have 2 minute Grace with 135 pounds which means I can lift more bags of trash into a garbage truck faster than 98% of the human beings on this planet. Screw a 3:25 mile over 10,000m like those unfit olympic champions and their phd coaches that know pointless exercise science, they can't deadlift 700 pounds, therefore are useless in the REAL world, its better to run a 17 minute mile over a hundred miles and be able to snatch 150 pounds like me. Because of this, I'm a better athlete then them, fitter, stronger, higher quantity of mental toughness, and physically more experienced. So before you exercise challenge me on the intranet, do your research on who you are talking to, because you may run into the Achilles of fitness.

So is this board Diet IGX now? Those of us in the stands who could give a shit less about either side would really like to know.

By the way, your internet Kung-Fu is honed and effective. Kudos champion.

Jarod Barker
11-12-2010, 09:01 AM
So is this board Diet IGX now? Those of us in the stands who could give a shit less about either side would really like to know.

By the way, your internet Kung-Fu is honed and effective. Kudos champion.

You have to admit that made you laugh :p It sure as hell had me cracking up.

I think the point made on this topic is simply that the attitude of certain people about CF is that it's superior to everything else, but the evidence just isn't there. Name one CFer who won a gold medal. Even Eva T won her bronze at World's before she started CF.

I dig CF, I think it's fun. But if I was training for ultramarathon, I think I'd be running, not doing Fran over and over again. Strange as it sounds, the traditional methods still seem to work best.

Grissim Connery
11-21-2010, 08:58 PM
From the article

What are the 3 biggest mistakes you see endurance athletes make and how would you suggest they change?
Nutrition, Training, Recovery. I know this is vague, but there is so much wrong we could write a book on it. All of the nutrition sucks in endurance sports… Get rid of the supplements and start adding real food. Training: stop running, riding, and swimming all day, it doesn’t make you faster! You are quad dominant, and your hips don’t work for Christ’s sake. Learn to move correctly, and lift heavy… Then go really fast! I’d also like to throw in that none of them look at their particular sport as a skill, and because of this they will never do what they love for a long time. PERIOD!

I'd been under the impression that running was a more glut/posterior dominant skill. Are elite endurance runners more quad dominant (as opposed to sprinters)?

Andrew Wilson
11-21-2010, 09:36 PM
From the article



I'd been under the impression that running was a more glut/posterior dominant skill. Are elite endurance runners more quad dominant (as opposed to sprinters)?

I was reading about this the other day, can't find it, but even though this being sprint & middle, & isn't ultra:
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lc5vtn2dLr1qa2twxo1_500.jpg
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lc5vwaNNYf1qa2twxo1_500.jpg

IAAF: How to train to become a top distance runner (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B43ejbp4blYoYjEzMzk2YWEtYjYwOC00NGNiLTk0NTc tMjIzMTRhNzhlNWI2&hl=en&authkey=CKH4jogC) safe
IAAF: Biomechanical analysis of the medalists in the 10,000 metres at the 2007 World Championships in Athletics (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B43ejbp4blYoNjUwMTlhOGYtOGIxNC00NDdiLWJhY TQtNjg1ZDI4Njk1ZGI5&sort=name&layout=list&num=50) safe
Verkhoshanky: SST for Middle Distance (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B3LLtGFeN8IHNGE3YmVkYTItM2E0ZC00NTI3LTk0NjY tYWU1MTA0ZWVlMzZi&hl=en&authkey=CNzCkMYL) safe
He is clearly confused and has a dire misunderstanding of sport physiology.

Derek Weaver
11-29-2010, 07:05 PM
If anyone hasn't clicked on the link in Andrew's sig yet. Do yourself a favor and do so.

Donald Lee
11-29-2010, 09:25 PM
If anyone hasn't clicked on the link in Andrew's sig yet. Do yourself a favor and do so.

That is a massive amount of info right there. Whose site is that?

Andrew Wilson
11-30-2010, 09:43 AM
That is a massive amount of info right there. Whose site is that?

I needed somewhere to post all my notes just in case I needed to switch laptops or something happened to my hard drive, realized at around 400 posts that a lot of this information can help a lot of people out so attached to the signature. I have around 500 more with IAAF studies and presentations, was going to add that the next few months

Jarod Barker
11-30-2010, 11:23 AM
If anyone hasn't clicked on the link in Andrew's sig yet. Do yourself a favor and do so.

Yeah I clicked it the first time I saw it wondering what Crossfitters of the Lost Ark was, and I'm still not done going through all the info there.

Andrew, you have quite a collection, and alot of really good info. I don't know how you manage to keep track of it all.

Daniel Wurzberg
12-20-2011, 03:30 PM
If anyone hasn't clicked on the link in Andrew's sig yet. Do yourself a favor and do so.

I know I'm a year too late, but wondering if that link is still alive somewhere.

tnx

D