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Mike ODonnell
02-26-2007, 07:54 PM
Ok...so now according to Poliquin (email newsletter) he is now pushing the V-Diet.....and I know DJ did it.....so I wanted to get any other feedback on it from any others who might have attempted it. More about performance, fat loss, muscle maintenance, etc....and also about issues...like who is this not safe for? What are the possible effects long term? etc..etc..

Let the games begin.

Steve Shafley
02-26-2007, 08:06 PM
Here's my take on it.

The only, and let me repeat, the only advantage an all liquid protein sparing modified fast has over a whole food protein sparing modified fast is the complete and utter control you have over caloric intake.

Dave Van Skike
02-26-2007, 08:42 PM
First.

I think Poliquin is an 80/20 genius. 80% of his stuff is dead on, 20% bat%$*t crazy. DB snatches "dangerous"? Come on. That said. I did the v-diet. No rocket science there, it is about the most bone simple protein sparing modified fast I can imagine. It's no healthy, it's not long term. It's a brutal slap in the face to get rolling.


Details

Starting stats were 30+% BF, 38 plus inch waist, a good deal of belly fat, I was inspired by DJ's results so I sucked it up and shilled out for the stuff.

Started on Oct. 30th. 2006 Followed the v-diet regime as Rx'd for two and a half weeks,

Basically 5-6 shakes per day, mostly the biotest brand, (have to say I still like biotest the best because it mixes easily., I thin low carb proetiewn shakes taste like crap.)

Started with the thermogenics (hot rox) but they gave me heartburn.

Lot's of fish oil. Coffee, water green tea. Tons of NEPA. I also switched out to a 5x5x5 lifting program. Squats, Deads, Clean, Press and Dumbell Snatches.



I went hard for two weeks, then... my dad got cancer, my house remodel stalled and my job went crazy...STRESSmonkey syndrome. The diet was starting to seem like a diversion so I backed off a little and added in one solid meal per day. basically a can of tuna over lettuce.


Results


This saved the day. I stuck with that protocol for 6 weeks. Lost about 30 pounds. Not much muscle loss if any to be honest. Now I'm down to about 20%BF. Size 34 pants. I have cheat days every weekend but kept it pretty under control (most of the time).

I lost mostly belly fat, lost cravings for a lot of crap foods and quit drinking beer (mostly) I still drink Guinness and red wine about twice a week.

Strength

Strength levels steadily rose throughout diet. Although not quickly, I hit PRs in Deadlift, DB Snatch and Front squat. The lifts I paid no attention to went up the most. The ones I hammered, like cleans and presses stayed flat. I did ZERO metcon. I had work capacity of a Chevy 235, fine just off idle, redline's at about 3200. I did do lots of NEPA, mostly biking to and from work...slow and low that is the tempo.


Transition

I was very intentional about transitioning off. I was very slow to add carbs, very slow to add kcal.s

I rode out the holiday season on a modified low carb-ish diet, at about maintenance calories and lost another 5 to 6 more pounds into January. I then switched to a strength based program and went to all solid food and a slight kcal surplus. All my lifts immediately went up and my neck, back and quads grew very quickly.

Upshot:

Since I did it, my wife and another friend have tried it. My wife is down 15 pounds in 4 weeks. My friend can't seem to hack the shakes but is making slow progress on a real food version of the same protein-ish fast

I sheepishly recommend it because it is so simple and it worked great for me. I'd recommend it to anyone who is pissed off enough to try a radical change. My wife waited to do it until our youngest quit breastfeeding.

For me it lived up to the hype. I currently on an IF protocol (calorie restricted) to get down to 15-18% BF where I'll be happy to stay. If IF doesn't deliver for me, I'd do a protein fast again in a heartbeat.

Dave Van Skike
02-26-2007, 08:45 PM
Here's my take on it.

The only, and let me repeat, the only advantage an all liquid protein sparing modified fast has over a whole food protein sparing modified fast is the complete and utter control you have over caloric intake.

I agree with Mr. Shafley... that said, control is the real issue. I suspect it's why a lot of diets work, if there is a bright line drawn between on task and off track I think a lot of people do better. that is the only magic.

Also, anything that is so unsustainable as a protein fast needs to be gotten over with quickly. Don't mistake this for "healthy".

Mike ODonnell
02-26-2007, 09:04 PM
I wondered if the liquid diet and high fiber had a benefit medically speaking wise over the same version with same protein. Seeing how the liquid is quickly digested, therefore saving more energy towards rebuilding and healing...plus all that flaxseeds probably does a hell of a job scrubbing the gut and cleaning it up...leaves alot to be wondered about it from a disease point of view....would it help someone with an autoimmune disorder that could be lead back to say leaky gut syndrome? (as fasting in general shows benefits towards all diseases).

Also how important is the thermogenic aids? I would guess not vital if you do it for only 30 days.

Steve Shafley
02-27-2007, 04:51 AM
Dan John and I talked about this.

And, yes, "control" is the issue. For example 18-20 hour fast a day for me, no problem, because I know if I eat something I fail. Eat NO carbs....easy...

6 Zone meals a day...oooh...now it's getting tricky. While I've gotten good results with the Zone in the past, the whole balancing act is begging for me to mess it up. Undisciplined? Sure, I am. I realize this. The very act of denial makes me more disciplined.

So, we get into the topic that I've thought about a lot lately. That's the philosophical appropriateness of a dietary and exercise regimen to an individual.

For example: I've stated that I absolutely abhor the 5x5 rep scheme. No real reason for it, I just don't like it. Is me doing ladders of 1/2/3 instead of sets of five going to compromise me? No. Plus, since I've bought into it, I'm going to be more likely to comply.

Allen Yeh
02-27-2007, 05:38 AM
Like Steve I find that with IF it's a lot easier to manage your meals when you know you have absolute cut off times.

When doing the 6 meal a day thing I found it was easy to get off track if life/work got in the way, sometimes at a installation I'd miss 3-4 meals just because an escort was needed to go anywhere out of the building. Then I'd be ravenous by the time I got to eat anything and eat until sated. I did have long term success with this method but I felt it was easy to break discipline if I couldn't get my meals at the 2-3 hour intervals.

I did a smoothie fast from the book The Detox Diet by Dr. Haas, I did it basically to support my wife when she was doing it. Holy crap talking about gnawing hunger, it was basically get all your calories in by smoothie except for lemon water in the morning plus a fruit to "detox" the body. No supplements/caffiene other than what he outlined in his book, herbal teas, things like greens powder, milkweed thistle...etc. This smoothie thing killed me, even though I got all my cals I was craving in the worst way just to chew something after day 5, I caved after day 10, my wife made it all 2 weeks. The things I didn't like about this diet was just that I just wanted texture in my mouth, at times I would salivate thinking about biting something crispy. Also this was a gnawing hunger like 30 minutes after a shake and my next shake was 2-3 hours away.

With that being said I did think about trying the V-diet after following Dan's log and wondering if I could follow that better than the Detox diet, but my wife would kill me if I bought all those supplements and blew the family budget.

I'd be curious to how you felt if you decided to try it, maybe a log?

Elliot Royce
02-27-2007, 06:09 AM
two questions:

- is it suitable if you play intense, anaerobic sports like hockey?

- where is there more information on it?

I will need to lose some weight one of these days. The alternative would be a zone diet with a lower level of calories than I currently consume.

Danny John
02-27-2007, 07:01 AM
I didn't see this before...

Upsides:
28 Days is doable.
There is absolutely no Free Will involved.
There is no thought involved.
It is heroic (trust me on this...when people say "What are you doing?" you 'try' explaining it...a look of wonder comes over their face...'wow....')

Downsides:
It is not for pussies. Get your blood tests, pay for the supps, take the pics, post them on the net and get going...
The initial expense and work (filling the baggies with supps, for example)
Your family has to deal with a raving lunatic ("asshole" is the term in my home)

Mike ODonnell
02-27-2007, 07:19 AM
I'd miss 3-4 meals just because an escort was needed to go anywhere out of the building

Who knew you worked at the chicken ranch????

I agree with Shaf...complete control, so you are not going over calories for a short period of time. Seems to have enough protein in it to spare muscle loss...and also adds in the ole PWO shake where pretty much all your carbs come from.

Elliot I am going to say No about playing hockey and other intense anaerobic activities....as with the limited cal and glycogen stores going to be bottomed out...you will most likely eat up alot more muscle and drop your immune system by overtraining...I believe this diet is meant only for 2-3 weight sessions a week and lower HR cardio (if any).

I'm not a bodybuilder...but I wonder if this type of diet down has been around before that older veterans might have used in their days.

It still intrigues me about the health benefit...as it is basically a "protein" shake fast. Probably a great tool to use after a "eat as much as you want" mass gaining period.

Danny John
02-27-2007, 07:23 AM
The health benefits for me were secondary at the time...but amazing later, Mike. As I look back on my blood profile changes, truly extraordinary in a 28 day period, that is the amazing thing. My primary focus at the time was to deal with some issues...but a few months later, it is the health benefits that seem to ring the most true.

This is a good thread.

Mike ODonnell
02-27-2007, 08:18 AM
DJ,

Those were amazing results. Aside from the fat loss I have to think health is most important. I imagine you did gain back some water weight after it was over due to glycogen and water replenishment? What kind of eating plan do you follow now to keep those results? More like a Zone approach?

I deal mostly with the "American Public"...aka fat, overweight, high BP, arthritis, etc..etc..You know the ones that will no way in hell follow a 5-6x a day eating plan...and may not be strong enough to do something like a V-Diet. I wish I dealt with higher end people who would tought it out....but alas the majority of people are really not wanting to do Frans and "suck it up" on the diet....although I can always tell them too. I have learned over the years however not to become too much of a friend and get more tough with them...but not so tough I scare them off and they dont get healthy.

Anyways....where I was going with that is, do you or anyone think there is some sort of middle ground for the average person where they do say 1-2 real meals and 3-4 liquid ones? Real meals being only protein, veg, and healthy fat? Can a person do shakes all day and have a dinner of food at night and still get those results? Dunno...just trying to figure out something that my clients would realistically follow....and esp the fasting part and health benefits are of interest due to the amount of people with autoimmune disorders and inflammation issues....that's a grey area considering all the meds some people could be on too......Hmmmmm.....lots to think about....

Mike ODonnell
02-27-2007, 08:23 AM
I did a smoothie fast from the book The Detox Diet by Dr. Haas, I did it basically to support my wife when she was doing it. Holy crap talking about gnawing hunger, it was basically get all your calories in by smoothie except for lemon water in the morning plus a fruit to "detox" the body.

Alan I think I remember that one.....I am wondering if the presence of sugar in the fruits and smoothies kept the cravings going.....vs say the V-diet approach of protein only and PWO sugars only....just thinking out loud here...

Dave Van Skike
02-27-2007, 09:01 AM
DJ,

Those were amazing results. Aside from the fat loss I have to think health is most important. I imagine you did gain back some water weight after it was over due to glycogen and water replenishment? What kind of eating plan do you follow now to keep those results? More like a Zone approach?

I deal mostly with the "American Public"...aka fat, overweight, high BP, arthritis, etc..etc..You know the ones that will no way in hell follow a 5-6x a day eating plan...and may not be strong enough to do something like a V-Diet. I wish I dealt with higher end people who would tought it out....but alas the majority of people are really not wanting to do Frans and "suck it up" on the diet....although I can always tell them too. I have learned over the years however not to become too much of a friend and get more tough with them...but not so tough I scare them off and they dont get healthy.

Anyways....where I was going with that is, do you or anyone think there is some sort of middle ground for the average person where they do say 1-2 real meals and 3-4 liquid ones? Real meals being only protein, veg, and healthy fat? Can a person do shakes all day and have a dinner of food at night and still get those results? Dunno...just trying to figure out something that my clients would realistically follow....and esp the fasting part and health benefits are of interest due to the amount of people with autoimmune disorders and inflammation issues....that's a grey area considering all the meds some people could be on too......Hmmmmm.....lots to think about....

Mike. I think if you look back through Dan's log and the experience of others you'll see that a "middle ground" is pertty tough to Mintain. Shaf hit it on the ehad. With IF and V-diet there is a clear line between On and Off. When you are a 1000 kcal in the red, it makes sense tro simplify your choices.

Realize that I had success with a modified version. My "breakdown" on the diet was to add one tuna salad each day instead of a shake. This felt like an enormous cheat at the time. In reality, it's probabaly even less calories than a shake.

I think the spartan psychology of the diet is the most important thing. Moderation in these matters doesn't work. if you are 50 pounds overfat, you don't need moderation, you need radical change. Change stems from imbalance, not a moderate appraoch.

Like I said, the cahnges were profound enough for me to insprie three other people to try. My wife has stuck it out, one friend bailed right off the bat and another started a different program.

Dave Van Skike
02-27-2007, 09:04 AM
- is it suitable if you play intense, anaerobic sports like hockey?

No. This is a fast. you are not really eating anything like enough calories to sustain super intense work. You can still play but you'll suck for a while.

- where is there more information on it?

T-nation has Dan's log, there is a tone of stuff on Lyle McDonald's board about protein sparring modified fasts.

Dave Van Skike
02-27-2007, 09:08 AM
Also how important is the thermogenic aids? I would guess not vital if you do it for only 30 days.

I quit taking them but have subsequently revised my thinking. I do think they help with hunger cravings and my wife has had good luck with them in speedign up fat loss. I wouldn't say they are absolutley neccesary but it seems to help duirng an intense diet. Once your off of a fat loss diet, I think they are stupid.

hollis petri
02-27-2007, 09:55 AM
I did the v-diet twice (28 days long) . Once as prescribed and once a year ago where i made a whole foods version of it. Meaning I used the same number of grams of carbs/protein/fat as the shake diet but used whole foods instead: Chicken, cans of Tj's Salmon, eggs, almonds instead of the flax (with extra fish oil tablets to get 6/3 ration to 4/1).

I lost over 20 pounds both times. I made the whole foods version just as regimented as the v-diet. There was no variation and everything was measured. However I would tell people to do the v-diet as prescribed if you want the easier solution. Its less initial estimating to do and making the shakes is pretty easy. Lot of meat to eat if you go the whole foods route.

No idea if there is a health cost to such an extreme diet but I can tell you that the blood work results were impressive. On the shake version (which is when i made sure I got a pre and post diet lab test to satisfy my curiosity) my LDL dropped 75 points in 28 days. I genetically have high Cho and to have it drop that much made me a happy camper.

Mike ODonnell
02-27-2007, 10:24 AM
Mike. I think if you look back through Dan's log and the experience of others you'll see that a "middle ground" is pertty tough to Mintain. Shaf hit it on the ehad. With IF and V-diet there is a clear line between On and Off. When you are a 1000 kcal in the red, it makes sense tro simplify your choices.

Dave thanks for your experiences. I was looking to see if 3 shakes and 2 meals gives the same fat loss and health benefits of the all shakes method. In the end....if the calories are the exact same I would imagine fat loss will be identical...since fat loss is a calorie in vs out equation.

Some people who may not be able to stick out a all liquid diet may have success with a mixed bag....again assuming all calories are identical as that is the real factor.

Mike ODonnell
02-27-2007, 10:27 AM
Also for those that did it.....what if any were the "rebound" effects from going back to normal eating? Did you gain the water weight back? Were you able to keep lean?

Danny John
02-27-2007, 10:29 AM
Actually, I continued to get leaner AFTER the diet. Now, that was October/November....but it stayed off.

Dave Van Skike
02-27-2007, 10:42 AM
Also for those that did it.....what if any were the "rebound" effects from going back to normal eating? Did you gain the water weight back? Were you able to keep lean?

My experince is the same. I actaully never gained back the "water weight" as I was still on the downslope. I think water weight is overthought. "Water weight" for me is the normal fluctiation from day to day of 2-3 pounds, maybe 5 if it was a salty weekend.

Mike I honestly don't think that 2-3 meals plus 2-3 shakes is better. It think it's worse. That style works for a transition to from fasting to food but for me, it is very difficult to "diet" consisitenly.

I think you can do a PSMF with anyhting, food, shakes whatever.... but... adding varaibles complicates it exponentially. If real food is in the equation, I'd limit it to one meal per day.

Long term, yes, the weight has stayed off and contnued to drop. That is due entirley to the fact that I eat differently now than I did before the diet.

Mike ODonnell
02-27-2007, 12:30 PM
I'm excited to give this a try....as eating 5-6x a day burns me out...but I could easily put down the shakes.....of course...March 17th right around the corner....so ideal time would be to start right after. Plus trying to put on the lbs now....so at 195ish..13% BF ish....maybe I can get another 5-6lbs on in 2 weeks...eat everything in sight...celebrate my heritage...kill some brain cells.....and then hammer off the fat for 4 weeks without losing muscle....that I would love to see....as my BF has never been below 9% in the last few years.

I'm also wondering if my 2 expresso's a day is a good enough supplement of a fat burner...I've done the fat burners long ago...not a big fan...plus caffeine is part of the fat burning stack too.....so I can handle it in smaller doses like expresso.

Dave Van Skike
02-27-2007, 01:19 PM
I'm excited to give this a try....as eating 5-6x a day burns me out...but I could easily put down the shakes.....of course...March 17th right around the corner....so ideal time would be to start right after. Plus trying to put on the lbs now....so at 195ish..13% BF ish....maybe I can get another 5-6lbs on in 2 weeks...eat everything in sight...celebrate my heritage...kill some brain cells.....and then hammer off the fat for 4 weeks without losing muscle....that I would love to see....as my BF has never been below 9% in the last few years.

It would be interesting to see your results. I know this diet was "invented" by a lean guy trying to get super lean, which is where it seems like you are.

I have seen a lot of positive results form chubby guys getting to medium or like DJ chubby to lean. I'd like to see some accounts of the latter that I can trust. Seems like everyone posting over at t-bag is at 4-5% body fat already. ;) But then I'm skepitical like that.

Ron Nelson
02-27-2007, 02:12 PM
In my e-mail to Dan I asked if it was worth it to give the V-Diet a try for a week, just to see if I could handle it. His reply?

As Yoda said, "There is no try, there is just do or don't do."

Something like that. Nonetheless, it has stuck in my mind since then. It's only 28 days. February blew through like nothing. In that time, I could have lost 20+ pounds and finally lowered my BF to around 12% (I'm closer to 20-22% now). I must have that lack of choice or I will go off. That's why Atkins worked so well for me. Eat protein; screw the carbs. Now, the body has adapted to that. Time to change.

Dave Van Skike
02-27-2007, 02:23 PM
In my e-mail to Dan I asked if it was worth it to give the V-Diet a try for a week, just to see if I could handle it. His reply?

As Yoda said, "There is no try, there is just do or don't do."

Something like that. Nonetheless, it has stuck in my mind since then. It's only 28 days. February blew through like nothing. In that time, I could have lost 20+ pounds and finally lowered my BF to around 12% (I'm closer to 20-22% now). I must have that lack of choice or I will go off. That's why Atkins worked so well for me. Eat protein; screw the carbs. Now, the body has adapted to that. Time to change.


If you can make a week you can make two... so just wing it and go for 3, most of the fat loss is on week two anyway so you'll want to gut it out for four weeks. By the time you get to four you'll think you can eat like that the rest of your life. Then it's time to add food back in, slowly. I'd say for it's 4 weeks of ON, then 4 weeks of transition at least. Plan 8 weeks to change your belly for good.

log your progress. take a before pic (whether you post it on t-bag is your call.)

Ron Nelson
02-27-2007, 02:28 PM
If you can make a week you can make two... so just wing it and go for 3, most of the fat loss is on week two anyway so you'll want to gut it out for four weeks. By the time you get to four you'll think you can eat like that the rest of your life. Then it's time to add food back in, slowly. I'd say for it's 4 weeks of ON, then 4 weeks of transition at least. Plan 8 weeks to change your belly for good.

log your progress. take a before pic (whether you post it on t-bag is your call.)

T-bag. Genius.

If I post pics, which I am loathe to do, it would be here, but only after I finish. No one should have to bear the sight of my gut.

Allen Yeh
02-27-2007, 03:28 PM
As Yoda said, "There is no try, there is just do or don't do."



You're killing me Ron:

Luke: Alright, I'll give it a try.
Yoda: No, try not. Do...or do not there is no try.

Jamila Bey
02-27-2007, 08:54 PM
NOTES FROM A GIRL WHO DID (a knockoff of) THE V-DIET

Hot-Rox turned me manic. I am sensitive to artificial sweeteners and the Metabolic Drive shake gave me... "internal issues." My marriage would not have lasted had I not made the following mods.

I found a whole food shake www.ultimatelife.com that my hubby once used to lose 60 pounds and used it instead. Took BCAAs, a prenatal sup for the lady health, fish oil, calcium and ZMA.

In one week, I lost 12 pounds. In two weeks I lost 15 pounds. In three weeks I lost 22 pounds and almost all of my lovely lady lumps. Bought smaller bras and got pissed and started eating whole foods again. (I didn't have much to spare in the first place!)

Lost 2 more pounds. Under 200 for the first time in nearly 3 years and feeling fantastic. ***Coach Dan John*** this is since I've last seen you!!!

Now playing defensive tackle and worried about what weight I should be... every practice I lose 2 pounds even thought I'm back on a sensible eating plan for life.

I actually should lose another 25-40 pounds or so. We'll see.

Ron Nelson
02-27-2007, 09:53 PM
You're killing me Ron:

Luke: Alright, I'll give it a try.
Yoda: No, try not. Do...or do not there is no try.

I only saw that episode about 5 times. Plus, Dan quoted it correctly to me. . .I think. I deleted the e-mail.

Mike ODonnell
02-28-2007, 06:55 AM
NOTES FROM A GIRL WHO DID (a knockoff of) THE V-DIET.
I actually should lose another 25-40 pounds or so. We'll see.

Jamila, does this mean you are still doing it? Or have you created some other version that you are doing daily now?

Jamila Bey
02-28-2007, 12:09 PM
I've stopped. But that's because I lost 22 pounds in a month, and I did it in December/January and it was good to make it thru all the holiday food debauchery without indulging too much.

I'm doing the sensible zone-ish meals thing with a shake a day now.

Hubby and I are starting our shakes only regime again tomorrow, March 1, and we're doing it until April 1.

I freely admit that I indulge in one real meal per week because I'd commit husband-cide if he wouldn't cook for me. Every time I guzzle a liquid feast, I think to myself, "6 days 'till my crabcake and salad with dressing!" And it's enough to get me thru.

However, I do find that willpower is not enough during my cycle. I turn into a raging witch if I don't get something sweet. Lara bars "cashew cookie" and "cherry pie" seem to work. If I try to ignore the craving, I wind up shoveling the worst chocolate and Doritos crap into myself.

Robb Wolf
02-28-2007, 05:32 PM
Really interesting thread. I think the radical change is really warranted at times. I think the guys at CrossFit Vancouver are recommending a liquid fast for some of their really heavy clients and getting fantastic results. It's hard but the results happen quickly and are highly motivational.

For maintenance I think its tough to beat meat, leaves and
berries in an intermittent fasting format. Good food...but not too much of it.

Greg Everett
02-28-2007, 05:43 PM
yeah, patty in vancouver hooked up with cari-lee stevens (http://www.clstevensfitness.com/), who sells/supports this liquid fast diet thing (http://www.gocleanse.com/landing.asp?id=1927). i met her last year when i was up there doing a lifting seminar (and a last minute 'nutrition seminar' on fat loss while i was drinking several beers). she is cool, but i'm somewhat skeptical of any diet that requires you purchase specific products sold by the folks who recommend the diet... once we start manufacturing PM food, i'll change my tune on that one, but for now, it stands firm!

shit, i could make you lose 15 lbs in 9 days too--probably even more. you could drink nothing but a can or two of ensure and do it. doesn't mean it's healthy. add some methamphetamine and 3 packs of cigarettes (non-filtered lucky strikes or hand-rolled drum are the biscuits of choice) a day, and you'll be good to go.

excuse me, i have a business plan to write...

Mike ODonnell
02-28-2007, 05:48 PM
shit, i could make you lose 15 lbs in 9 days too--probably even more. you could drink nothing but a can or two of ensure and do it. doesn't mean it's healthy. add some methamphetamine and 3 packs of cigarettes (non-filtered lucky strikes or hand-rolled drum are the biscuits of choice) a day, and you'll be good to go.

excuse me, i have a business plan to write...

Aka...the supermodel diet....hence why they smoke all day.

and you should know by now...a real good intellgent program makes no money....a crazy outside the box theory with no proof and crazy advertising about insane fat loss is what makes millions......there's no money in selling healthy solutions....quick and easy is the big money maker.

Greg Everett
02-28-2007, 06:07 PM
you know, the radical change deal is so tempting when you have clients who just kind of lollygag along... except the reason they're lollygagging is because THEY WON'T FUCKING DO WHAT YOU TELL THEM TO DO.

although the simplicity is the key there. but really, how complicated is 'eat a piece of meat, some veggies and a few nuts'? remarkably so, apparently.

also, what about the raging diabetics whose quack doctors decide (after months of perfect blood glucose) to introduce a new med at a huge dose (say avandamet, 500mg) and nearly stick said diabetic in a coma, then take her off the meds and have her BG all over the damn map so you can't do anything of consequence in the gym without flooding an NG tube with orange juice to keep her from dying afterward...

so anyway, any experience with type II diabetics and this kind of approach?

Mike ODonnell
02-28-2007, 06:34 PM
except the reason they're lollygagging is because THEY WON'T FUCKING DO WHAT YOU TELL THEM TO DO.

Welcome to my world....

Problem #2 is the "Great I lost all this weight so now back to eating my cake and everything else...." and then BAMM.....they load it right back on.

I like the simplicity as in they have no excuse while at work to follow something so simple...and then have a lifestyle plan they can ease into and keep going....

No experience with diabetics....as any fasting is usually not recommended...but then again...doctors just blurt out random things sometimes...

Today's episode "My doctor told me to lose the weight...but also said I shouldnt eat alot of protein as it is bad for my kidneys".....are you serious???? So my reply was...."Call your doctor and ask him specifically how much protein is too much...as in grams..."...Sweat that one doc..."Ummm....Ahhhhh....."

kevin mckay
02-28-2007, 08:10 PM
I did the v-diet twice (28 days long) . Once as prescribed and once a year ago where i made a whole foods version of it. Meaning I used the same number of grams of carbs/protein/fat as the shake diet but used whole foods instead: Chicken, cans of Tj's Salmon, eggs, almonds instead of the flax (with extra fish oil tablets to get 6/3 ration to 4/1).

I lost over 20 pounds both times. I made the whole foods version just as regimented as the v-diet. There was no variation and everything was measured. However I would tell people to do the v-diet as prescribed if you want the easier solution. Its less initial estimating to do and making the shakes is pretty easy. Lot of meat to eat if you go the whole foods route.

No idea if there is a health cost to such an extreme diet but I can tell you that the blood work results were impressive. On the shake version (which is when i made sure I got a pre and post diet lab test to satisfy my curiosity) my LDL dropped 75 points in 28 days. I genetically have high Cho and to have it drop that much made me a happy camper.

I am curios what the whole food version looked like. I know very little about this diet what do the macro nutrient ratios/ total cals look like?

kevin mckay
02-28-2007, 08:15 PM
Rob,

meat, leaves and
berries in an intermittent fasting format

I like that, but is there a paleo quick loss solution?

If I wanted to drop 20 as fast as possible eating paleo what would that look like?

Robb Wolf
03-01-2007, 08:19 AM
Rob,

meat, leaves and
berries in an intermittent fasting format

I like that, but is there a paleo quick loss solution?

If I wanted to drop 20 as fast as possible eating paleo what would that look like?

Hmmm...likely Zone protein level and carbs only in the form of veggies...just a little fat. Clock only about 1200 cals and train pretty hard. You will get lean in a hurry.

Dr. eades feels getting diabetics into ketosis as fast as possible is the way to go. Makes sense really...if you want to reverse insulin resistance, remove all insulin spiking foods.

Steve Shafley
03-01-2007, 09:02 AM
Yeah...I really think you need to address protein needs first on something like this, and how you train becomes increasingly important. The 1 gram/lb of lean body mass is probably a good prescription, and so would the Zone recommendations.

I do think the IF with PMSF coupled with appropriate post-workout nutrition might be an optimal strategy for a strength athlete looking to maintain muscular mass while dropping weight. Maintaining strength is going to be a balancing act while in a calorie deficit.

Maybe something like this:

Training Days: PMSF style eating + post workout nutrition to replace muscle glycogen and help speed recovery...nothing too extreme, though.

-I say this so you can have some protein and calories before your workouts, which tend to make them better (although I have to confess I've had no problems with higher volume lifting sessions at the tail end of an 18 hour fast)

Off Days: IF, maybe compress all your zone blocks into a 6 hour window.

What'd be tricky is determining optimal types of metcon...I think metcon can break the model in half if it's too intensive, and, in addition, overall training volume for weight work could possibly break this.

If you have a lot of weight to lose, I feel you have more leeway with volume of lifting and of metcon, but if you are going from 12%->7%, this becomes a very different story.

Dave Van Skike
03-01-2007, 09:15 AM
Rob,

meat, leaves and
berries in an intermittent fasting format

I like that, but is there a paleo quick loss solution?

If I wanted to drop 20 as fast as possible eating paleo what would that look like?

I've got two folks doing a whole food version. Looks a lot like a "diet" to me but they are both gettign great results. I'll query their daily intake and post back. Big upside of going whole food is it transitons to long term eating patterns better.

Dave Van Skike
03-01-2007, 09:29 AM
Yeah...I really think you need to address protein needs first on something like this, and how you train becomes increasingly important. The 1 gram/lb of lean body mass is probably a good prescription, and so would the Zone recommendations.

I do think the IF with PMSF coupled with appropriate post-workout nutrition might be an optimal strategy for a strength athlete looking to maintain muscular mass while dropping weight. Maintaining strength is going to be a balancing act while in a calorie deficit.

Maybe something like this:

Training Days: PMSF style eating + post workout nutrition to replace muscle glycogen and help speed recovery...nothing too extreme, though.

-I say this so you can have some protein and calories before your workouts, which tend to make them better (although I have to confess I've had no problems with higher volume lifting sessions at the tail end of an 18 hour fast)

Off Days: IF, maybe compress all your zone blocks into a 6 hour window.

What'd be tricky is determining optimal types of metcon...I think metcon can break the model in half if it's too intensive, and, in addition, overall training volume for weight work could possibly break this.

If you have a lot of weight to lose, I feel you have more leeway with volume of lifting and of metcon, but if you are going from 12%->7%, this becomes a very different story.


At some point I will have to fess up and post my nutrition log.

The protein fasting IF is simialr to something I am currently doing. Keep in mind I had great luck with V-diet and wanted to try IF, with a similar nutrient profile and kcals. If this doesn't yield results in about two weeks I'll switch. So far it's a worthy expirement.


My days looks like this:

Kcals per day. 1700-1900.
All consumed in a 4 hour window. 4:30pm to 8:30pm. Nothing but black coffee and water rest of the day.


Huge salad with nuts, a wee bit of fresh and dried fruit.

two steaks or a stack of 4-5 turkey burgers. 2 eggs

bowl of cottage cheese and protein shake before bed.

In the gym it's 5 strength based workouts a week. basically M/W/Sa
in the morning with a follow up session at noon two days a week. Based on the intermediate program from PP. Squats, cleans, presses, deads and pull-ups in various rep schemes and positions. H/L/M format

I do a little tiny bit of interval work to stay frosty but nothing taxing. Shaf is dead correct on that. too much "cardio", met con or even high volume lifting will drop me like a sack of onions. I do a wee tiny bit of mobilty and conditioning; typically heavy bag work, jump rope and kettlebell circuits, all less than 10 minutes long. Take occasional long walks with weighted vest and ride a bike. I look at these as active rest, not training any specific quality.

Compliance is good. Weight appears to be dropping (not sure, I weight in once a week and it' only day 5) Strenght levels are creeping up...slowly.

Mike ODonnell
03-01-2007, 10:47 AM
I do a little tiny bit of interval work to stay frosty but nothing taxing. Shaf is dead correct on that. too much "cardio", met con or even high volume lifting will drop me like a sack of onions.

Even though you are doing the PWO to replenish glycogen stores I imagine you want to keep your reps low (5 or less) to stay within ATP-CP energy systems, and stay away from anything higher reps or that resembles a metcon or HIT work....as that is glycolitic pathway...which you will not have alot of. Hence the "Bonk". Light cardio, or oxidative pathways are where you want to be outside of strength work.

Mike ODonnell
03-01-2007, 10:59 AM
For ease of use...do people do the protein powder thing...or has anyone tried a good RTG (ready to go) drink?

Dave Van Skike
03-01-2007, 11:49 AM
Even though you are doing the PWO to replenish glycogen stores I imagine you want to keep your reps low (5 or less) to stay within ATP-CP energy systems, and stay away from anything higher reps or that resembles a metcon or HIT work....as that is glycolitic pathway...which you will not have alot of. Hence the "Bonk". Light cardio, or oxidative pathways are where you want to be outside of strength work.



Correction. I do no PWO nutrition. I eat only during the window. regardless of when I train.

Days go like:

AM lift stuff.

Noon sometimes lift stuff, today it's erg., jump rope and stretch. I'll eat at about 5:30 PM today.

I have taken a lot of flak from people who think this is crazy. For me, it's not that far outside of what I normally do. Axly, when I was a bike racer I lived a lot like this. Work duirng day, no food, just coffee, leave work about 4;00, ride either a tempo piece for 40 to 50 miles with hills or interval work for an hour or so with some sprints. Get home about 8:00, drink two beers in the shower and eat until 10 or so. I would typically eat breakfast under that scenario but that's really the only difference. Come the think of it I was leaner then than at any point in my life, positively translucent.

Dave Van Skike
03-01-2007, 11:52 AM
For ease of use...do people do the protein powder thing...or has anyone tried a good RTG (ready to go) drink?

The RTG's are a taste catastrophe. The mix and match allows one to mitigate the nasty off flavors. Cocoa poweder, coconut milk, flax seed, even soy protein are really helpful to cut the taste down.

kevin mckay
03-01-2007, 10:10 PM
"Hmmm...likely Zone protein level and carbs only in the form of veggies...just a little fat. Clock only about 1200 cals and train pretty hard. You will get lean in a hurry."

That sounds cool I will start Monday, how many grams of carbs should I shoot for?

Nathan Stanley
09-14-2007, 08:39 AM
Just finished the V-diet last night. Here's a little bit of my experience.

First, I didn't find that it was all that tough. I was never really hungry, never spacey (unless I had put off a shake a couple of extra hours), never had horrible gastro-intestinal pain (I did become very gassey but dialed the flax seed meal back a bit and things improved). I tried to follow the diet to the "t" w/ the exception of my whole food meals when I ate a little more than I should have and had a gin and tonic w/ dinner once. I did use the biotest products for the most part except about halfway through I used some 100A% casein powder for a day or two until my resupply came.

I lifted w/ the basic Starting Strength program and felt good doing it. I usually use a kettlebell GS style workout and so haven't lifted heavy weights in about 5 years. I was able to squat over 400lbs toward the end of the 28 days which is the most I think I've done (I haven't really ever tried to get a max in the last 15 years).

I lost about 16lbs and 3.5" on my waist. Didn't do any of the bloodwork or bf testing so sorry about that. My reason for doing this was that a) I had really fallen off the wagon and needed a disciplined approach to straighten me out b) I coach and there is CONSTANT junk food around, team meals, post game meals, etc & I felt that if I were going to just follow a low carb approach I might get derailed easily.

My advice: If you are a higher % body fat person such as myself (between 20 and 30 is my guess) you'd have just as much success w/ a paleo/low carb/zone/etc approach w/ a 28 day strict eating plan. For lower bf% people, this might be something to try or if you're like me and need a jumpstart and don't trust yourself to make the right decisions.

I'm going to transition into a Fast 5 approach to IF now. I'm going to try and push back my shakes to noon for a while and then see how it goes from there. I'm sure I'll be asking for some advice on how to get through the day w/out eating...

Ian Beale
02-22-2008, 03:53 AM
Hi Guys,

First time poster, long time lurker blah blah blah. I am going to be starting the V-Diet on monday and I was going to post some before and after pics of my progress (hopefully). Need to get back on track with diet, it has been slowly slipping through my fingers lately and I think this is the kick up the ass I need.

Ian B

Allen Yeh
02-22-2008, 05:54 AM
Hi Guys,

First time poster, long time lurker blah blah blah. I am going to be starting the V-Diet on monday and I was going to post some before and after pics of my progress (hopefully). Need to get back on track with diet, it has been slowly slipping through my fingers lately and I think this is the kick up the ass I need.

Ian B

Welcome Ian, you are starting at a good time, today is day 2 the Velocity Diet for my wife and myself.

Jay Cohen
02-22-2008, 06:04 AM
All V-Diet'rs;

Please keep updating this thread as to your progress, comments and suggestions. Dan John gave this a try last year, think it worked pretty well for him.
Thanks in advance and good luck.

Ian Beale
02-22-2008, 08:34 AM
Yeah, this thread has already been a useful resource to me. I am looking forward to getting started on this, I like the rigidity of it. I'm not good with half-arsed diets, which is both good and bad, obviously. Moderation has never been one of my strong points, it's usually either all of nothing which is what I am hoping this regime can go some way to change. After I have given this a go I want to crack on with IF/Paleo style eating as I think that will most probably be most beneficial to me. The fact remains that at this moment IF style eating worries me because I can fast for time, without trouble but as soon as food, without specifically rigid guidelines comes in, it tends to descend into a gorge fest. Ultimately I need to learn moderation.

Dave Paton
02-22-2008, 09:45 AM
I did a semi V diet the month of January 2008. I was consuming roughly 5 protein shakes a day and 2 small meals (lunch and dinner) conisiting of only meat and vegetables. I did not stray from this at all. I ate fish oil and drank a ton of water and some diet coke. i followed a program i found on MIke's Gym which basically consisted of 4 days of lifting, 2 snatch, 2 Clean and jerk, squats and presses.

The diet: it made me realize all of the snacking i was doing during the day. in about 6 weeks--i have since modified it a bit with more "real" food--i lost 15 lbs, 2-2.5 inches off my waist and my body composition really improved.

Strenght wise my PR's have really improved. however, i base this more on the fact of following a real program and not just ad-hocing it every day.

i didn't really see good results--body comp wise--until week 4. from week 4 to week 6 is when it dramatically improved.

currently i am eating 4 protein shakes a day with 3 real meals. still no bread, pasta etc.

Allen Yeh
02-23-2008, 06:44 AM
Why we are doing it, Laurie originally wanted to go back on the smoothie diet by Dr. Elson Haas. We had tried this in the past for detoxing and found that it did help BUT I was STARVING!! I think MOD mentioned that it was probably because even though I was doing a smoothie diet I was still adding a ton of extra carbs in there with the juices/nut milks we were using as a base for all the smoothies. So even though we were doing a smoothie diet it was still a moderate to high carb intake with almost no fat intake. Over the past year+ Laurie has gained a lot of weight due to all the stuff that has happened(surgery...etc) she has just got the point where she wanted to make a change and I suggested the Velocity Diet instead of the smoothie diet as it was similiar and you would get larger body composition changes.

We will monitor has she is doing since it is a gluten free diet and hopefully going gluten free cold turkey will help with some of her pain issues by the end of the 28 days and THEN we can get paleo after this is all over. Baby steps right?

I am doing this to support Laurie and I try not to think about stealing my children's food while I cook up lunch or dinner. My goal is to drop 15 lbs as I'm currently 197 and probably 15+% BF with her surgery/recovery and being super inconsistent at the gym. My conditioning has dropped, my strength sucks and I feel pretty crappy all around. I already eat pretty paleo-ish and have been IF'ing on and off for over a year now. More on time than off but off is off.

Details on Laurie and my V-diet:

We are pretty much just doing as Chris Shugart recommends with the following tweaks:

Both:
-Even though we started on a Thursday, we are scheduling the 1 solid meal to be on Sunday as this is when we will usually be able to be around each other for that meal. Chris Shugart suggested making the one meal breakfast or lunch which would be impossible on Thursdays due to my work schedule.
-Taping and weigh-ins will be on Thursday mornings before I leave for work.
-Instead of natural peanut butter we will both be using cashew/macadamia butter.

Allen:
-Surge - Instead of buying Surge for postworkout nutrition I will be using one scoop of whey isolate with 3 tablespoons of gatorade powder
-Hot Rox - I haven't taken anything along these lines in years upon years so for this week I'll only be taking 1 twice a day rather than the 2 twice a day that is suggested. On the 28th I'll start with 2 twice a day.
-NEPA walks - I still need to get my running in no matter what so instead of 7 NEPA walks a week I'm going to throw in 2-3 runs and walk the other days.
-Workout-I'm going to follow the Advanced V-diet routine that Chad waterbury designed for the next 4 weeks. It looks like a solid program.
-Additional supplements - None, no ZMA....etc
-5 shakes a day on non workout days, 6 on workout days

Laurie:
-No Hot-Rox or Se7en as they suggest for women, these both indicate if you are on medication for blood pressure not to take them.
-4 shakes a day on non workout days, 5 on workout days although this will be another Metabolic drive type shake and not a Surge type PWO shake.
-NEPA walks - 7x's a week 30+ minutes - This will be the most walking she will have done for over a year and a half now, so she will build up her speed on the walks as she gets her legs used to it.
-Workouts - 3x a week these will be mostly rehab/prehab type and not the intense workouts they suggest, she wouldn't be able to do what they suggest so we are going to go for "something is better than nothing" and hopefully fix some of the following things like: knee pain, ankle pain, her posture and other things. Her program will be a combo of Core Performance Essentials, Posture Power and stuff her PT gave her.
-Additional supplements: Vitamin C twice a day for her EDS, Calcium supplement(calcium, magnesium, vitamin D...etc) twice a day for her osteopenia
-Pickles - She has enough leeway in her calorie intake for up to 5 per day, she needs the sodium for her POTS as there is not much sodium at all in the shakes.

Comments so far:
Today is day 3, I do find myself missing the whole chewing thing, it's bad when you find yourself slowly chewing up your Fiber Choice tablets to savor the sensation. Hunger pangs aren't too bad for me but I've been IF'ing on and off for a year+ and I'm also not carb addicted. Laurie's hunger pangs have been worse but she hasn't gone low carb in over 3+ years and she also isn't taking hot-rox, having taken it before I recall that yohimbine is a decent appetite suppresant.

Shake recipes are needed though. I've tried seraching but 99% of the recipes I found all have other stuff added into it.

Derek Simonds
02-23-2008, 07:13 AM
Keep us updated Allen. Tell Laurie the worst part will be over in the next couple of days.

Jay Cohen
02-23-2008, 08:41 AM
Allen;

Post your comments as to effects and thoughts on the Hot Rox.
Thanks.

Dave Paton
02-23-2008, 10:33 AM
i am also taking Hot Rox. however, I only take 1/2 of the recommended dose. i take one in the morning with my shake and then one after dinner before I lift. For me, it gives me a lot more energy during my workout, and curves my appetite in the morning. However, the recommended 2 capsules makes me feel weird...kind of an upset stomach.

Ian Beale
02-25-2008, 02:55 AM
Starting today proper. Took some "before" pics yesterday so you will all be witness to teh fatness. Should I keep it in this thread or start another, what do you folks think?

Allen Yeh
02-25-2008, 04:23 AM
Starting today proper. Took some "before" pics yesterday so you will all be witness to teh fatness. Should I keep it in this thread or start another, what do you folks think?

We took pictures as well but my wife is going to wait until the end to show them, if then. I was planning on just posting it here.

Ian Beale
02-26-2008, 02:14 AM
Hi guys,

First day (yesterday) as expected, was fine. I was pretty much full of carbs from the weekend so I didn't really feel very hungry at all. I know that will change as time goes on, though. Didn't do anything much physical yesterday aside from some brisk walking. It maybe quite strange but I like it when I am in the "zone" like this. I know what I can eat (not alot) and I know what I can't eat (pretty much everything). Its liberating :D

Allen Yeh
02-28-2008, 04:36 AM
Update: Today marks the first day of week 2 for my wife and I. I woke her up this morning for our weigh-in's and measurements before I left for work this morning.

I'm down 7 pounds and 1.5" off my belly and 2" off my hips.

She is down 5 pounds and down 2" on her belly, 1" on her hips and 1" on her thighs.

Today I am also starting 2 Hot-Rox per dose, so 4 total a day. This morning on 2 I started to feel a bit nauseous at the 30 minute mark and quickly downed my shake. Nothing else of note.

Allen Yeh
03-03-2008, 04:16 AM
A quick report at Day 12:

Yesterday we went to Longhorn for our solid meal, I got the filet and lobster + some grill shrimp w/ veggies. She got the ribeye w/ baked sweet potato. Ceasar salads for both of us. Anyone every had food eurphoria? That's the best I can describe eating that steak. Really weird feeling.

On the 2 Hot-Rox 2x a day I've been doing ok so far with taking them on an empty stomach for about 30 minutes, once I start pushing 30 minutes I get a little nauesous. Also I need to either make sure I take them earlier than 3pm or just skip them (my dose with my "lunch" shake". Last night I took them at 3:15 pm and could not get to sleep at all last night.

Jamila Bey
03-04-2008, 06:18 AM
On the 2 Hot-Rox 2x a day I've been doing ok so far...Last night I took them at 3:15 pm and could not get to sleep at all last night.

I am so incredibly sensitive to those things. Hubby made me throw out a bottle that only had three doses taken out of it becuase it made me #1 totally manic #2 incapable of any sleep - took it at 10Am Monday didn't sleep until after midnight THURSDAY morning and #3 not shut up for a second of the day.

I'm sure I'll do the V Diet again someday, but you can't pay me to ingest Hot-Rox!

Allen Yeh
03-05-2008, 04:01 AM
Update: Fell off the boat last night at day 13! On a midnight Pedialyte run (no not for me!). I stopped by Taco Bell to grab food for Laurie and myself. Totally not worth it, the food made me feel like CRAP. I'm still paying for it this morning, that and the 4.5 hours sleep while trying to play puke catcher to a 2 year old doesn't help either I'm sure. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that it's not a 24 hour virus (12 hour stomach viruses?).

Back to normal today buyt I've resolved not to take Hot-Rox after 2pm. So if I miss a dose I miss a dose.

Steve Liberati
03-05-2008, 04:46 AM
Why the short-term diet when fitness, health and proper nutrition is a life-long pursuit?

Allen Yeh
03-05-2008, 04:58 AM
Why the short-term diet when fitness, health and proper nutrition is a life-long pursuit?

My wife orginally wanted to do the Detox Diet - Smoothie Version by Dr. Elson Haas. We have done it in the past and I found it to be horrible. I was starving on day 2 and only found it to be not fun. I think it was MOD who mentioned to me that perhaps it was because the diet recommended was very high in carbs and sugar still from the different milks used in the smoothies and all the fruit being blended in as well.

This time around when she mentioned the smoothie diet I mentioned the Velocity Diet instead. I personally chose to do it with her to try to be her support as we go through it together and I've put on more bodyfat than I'd have liked in the past 6 months due to my crappy eating habits and training inconsistency, with my wife's post-op. I was very curious about it after reading Dan John's experience in 2006.

I personally have a limit to the things I crave and binge out on, so I know I could have got back down to a more normal weight without doing the V-diet in a few months time. My wife is very all or nothing, she wants to use the V-diet to see if going gluten free helps her with some of her pain issues (there have been links to being Celiac and Chiari) as well as the "craving modification" if you can call it that. To be perfectly honest I can't say that the V-diet hasn't worked from a fat loss and craving modification standpoint. Eating that Taco Bell last night was just nasty and I took a LOT more pleasure from the steak + sweet potato we had from our solid meal on Sunday.

I think the biggest thing for me on the V-diet is the consistency has started to get to me a little. All drinks, no bite. I think the biggest thing for her is the "carb withdrawal" as well as not getting enough sodium (which she needs for her POTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome).

If this diet really helps her kick her cravings and gets her more active, I am all for it.

Gittit Shwartz
03-05-2008, 05:33 AM
Steve, if I may put in my $0.02,
Let's have a thought experiment. Let's say you have always eaten a healthy diet without being too OCD about it, just ad lib, have always been in good shape and have no eating disorders. You play a certain sport, and are used to performing at a certain level. Let's say one morning you wake up suddenly with 20lbs extra weight on you frustratingly preventing you from performing and progressing as you would like.
Start yourself on a calorie-restricted version of your normal diet, intended to gradually burn off that fat in a time frame of say 4 months.
Check in again after 4 months. What do you see? Well, there's a pretty good chance you will not be much leaner, and are now on the way to developing a neurotic relationship with food that will plague you for a long time after! I'm not saying this is inevitable but we all know the statistics about yo-yo dieting and I don't think it can ALL be blamed on a crappy/nutrient deficient/high carb diet.
This is just my personal experience but I've had years of yo-yo dieting growing more and more extreme gradually develop into an eating disorder. I feel that a diet where you basically don't eat is the way to go for anyone with a tendency there because it does not interfere with your relationship with FOOD. Calorie counting is NOT the way to learn a healthy attitude towards food as I feel you CANNOT have it when you are wilfully restricting yourself. As Robb Wolf says we are not wired for self-control. Your body is going to join forces with your mind in fighting against you.
These are my motives for opting for the Velocity Diet over calorie-restricting my normal diet. Just a psychological trick. I feel I can maintain pretty well, it's when I start restricting that the trouble begins. I've got to the point whan I don't binge if I'm taking in adequate nutrition but I'd rather not poke a sleeping tiger. The reason you are overweight - since obviously you didn't just wake up that way - should in my opinion be addressed SEPARATELY from the weight-loss diet itself.
Long post... This subject is very close to my heart because I've been through so many stages myself, and because I see people consistently failing around me. In particular I see girls who gained weight gradually with puberty with no unhealthy attitude towards food, start dieting to lose a few pounds, and it is then that they get into this vicious cycle. I feel the Velocity diet might be instrumental in breaking out of it.
Well, I hope my self-experiment succeeds... I welcome any thoughts / comments or criticism (blast away, I'm an Israeli - we have tough skin!)

Garrett Smith
03-05-2008, 05:34 AM
It's funny, we don't realize how much we miss chewing as part of eating until we aren't doing it anymore!

Allen, has she tried putting a pinch of good (ie. not white) sea salt in her shakes?

Mike ODonnell
03-05-2008, 07:33 AM
Why the short-term diet when fitness, health and proper nutrition is a life-long pursuit?

I understand where Steve is coming from. As long as people don't use this approach to just go back to a lifestyle of eating crap, it can be useful. I think anything "short term" cycled can be of benefit, esp when you consider it is a type of fast (from whole foods). So I am sure getting that rest to the digestive system allows for alot of internal cleaning and repair that may not happen on whole foods. Also can be a way for someone to kick start a weight loss program. Could be a week, could be 2 weeks. There is going to be a point of diminishing returns as this is not something that probably should be done long term. Me, personally, I love food...so 4 weeks of this aint going to happen....but maybe try 1 week of it? Who knows. Fasting can be varied and played with. Don't think you need 4 weeks to get good results as I would rather fast 3 days on water and return to whole foods. In the end...experimentation is what makes the world go forward.

sarena kopciel
03-05-2008, 08:42 AM
Interesting thoughts here. I must admit I dont know anything about the V diet but will read up on it now.

As a point in fact, Gittit, I have always been on the heavier side since hitting puberty. I probably weight less now, with much more muscle mass, as a grandma (age 46) than since I was 12!!

A few years ago, I saw a naturopath who put me on a weird eating plan. It was only raw goats milk for like 10 days with some supplements. First it was the start of spring, but i was freezing the whole time. Definitely missed the chewing etc. Lost weight that's for sure but after that I just ate and ate and ate. I must have gained quite a few lbs as the "plan" had a terrible rebound effect for me!!

There is definitely an emotional component to food for me (for most I believe) and I feel I do need food to be fit and thin! Balanced real foods with occas IF is my ticket. I hope I stick with it for the long haul!!

Eva Claire Synkowski
03-05-2008, 05:18 PM
A few years ago, I saw a naturopath who put me on a weird eating plan. It was only raw goats milk for like 10 days with some supplements. First it was the start of spring, but i was freezing the whole time. Definitely missed the chewing etc. Lost weight that's for sure but after that I just ate and ate and ate. I must have gained quite a few lbs as the "plan" had a terrible rebound effect for me!!

not much to add - but taubes GCBC has got some really good stuff on the "rebound" effect post caloric restriction as i recall. definitely something to think about for those who don't transition into a lifestyle of LC/paleo post v-diet...

Mike ODonnell
03-05-2008, 05:30 PM
As a person who is doing a modified 3 day fast myself, I can attest to cravings and wanting to dive face first into a pizza....that and I think I notice everything that has food on it....note to anyone who is doing any fast (modified or whatever kind from whole foods)...dont go to Barnes and Nobles and walk down the cooking/food isle as every book cover has pictures that seem to come to life....and dont go to the supermarket....ever! (stock up!!) Now where is my ACV in water? Mmmmmmmm........

Ian Beale
03-06-2008, 02:45 AM
I had a minor glitch early on when I started, got ill so I stopped until I got back to good health. I'm back on it now, day 6 and already the results are pretty good. Looking leaner for sure. This definitely works, but I am beginning to get worried about the possible rebound effects. Ah well it's working for me at the moment. Lifts haven't suffered as yet.

Gittit Shwartz
03-06-2008, 03:02 AM
Day 11 for me.
I am feeling good, having fun in the gym (haven't lifted weights for a while) plus every week on the Velocity Diet means another pullup!
I noticed a few days ago my blood pressure was getting a bit low - I did a forward roll to show my 5 year old students and everything went black for a moment. So I am making sure now to drink a lot of water and herbal tea and adding a pinch of sea salt to my shakes.
Regarding the rebound - I think the important thing is to have a rigorous transition plan and be as strict about it as if it were a diet in itself - which it is. This is where I screwed up in the past. I'll be wiser this time.
Good luck to everyone (but of course luck has nothing to do with it).

Allen Yeh
03-06-2008, 05:13 AM
As a person who is doing a modified 3 day fast myself, I can attest to cravings and wanting to dive face first into a pizza....that and I think I notice everything that has food on it....note to anyone who is doing any fast (modified or whatever kind from whole foods)...dont go to Barnes and Nobles and walk down the cooking/food isle as every book cover has pictures that seem to come to life....and dont go to the supermarket....ever! (stock up!!) Now where is my ACV in water? Mmmmmmmm........

As long as you don't watch that show Bizarre Foods and think "gee I think camel paw might be good..."

Allen Yeh
03-06-2008, 05:14 AM
Day 11 for me.
I am feeling good, having fun in the gym (haven't lifted weights for a while) plus every week on the Velocity Diet means another pullup!
I noticed a few days ago my blood pressure was getting a bit low - I did a forward roll to show my 5 year old students and everything went black for a moment. So I am making sure now to drink a lot of water and herbal tea and adding a pinch of sea salt to my shakes.
Regarding the rebound - I think the important thing is to have a rigorous transition plan and be as strict about it as if it were a diet in itself - which it is. This is where I screwed up in the past. I'll be wiser this time.
Good luck to everyone (but of course luck has nothing to do with it).


Are you doing the transition period as well? We were planning on transition to a few days with 1 solid meal, then a few days with 2....etc.

Allen Yeh
03-06-2008, 05:24 AM
Update - Day 15 - Week 3 Day 1

Despite my little breakdown on Tuesday this morning I weighed in at 187 posting a total of 10 pounds lost so far and I was down a few more inches on my waist and belly.

Despite being sick all yesterday and not having any shakes and I think somewhat dehydrated, Laurie had still gone down a couple of inches even if the scale weight indicated she was up 1 pound from last weigh in (to be fair on Tuesday morning she weighed in at 137).

Gittit Shwartz
03-06-2008, 06:18 AM
Are you doing the transition period as well? We were planning on transition to a few days with 1 solid meal, then a few days with 2....etc.

I'll definitely do a transition period of at least 2 weeks. I haven't decided on the exact protocol though. IF is definitely next, but I haven't decided if it would be best to transition straight into a fasting protocol, or settle down with 6 solid meals for a while before jumping in.
I've been paleo for a few years (except for PWO whey) so that won't be the issue.

Jay Cohen
03-06-2008, 08:26 AM
As long as you don't watch that show Bizarre Foods and think "gee I think camel paw might be good..."

If anyone is game(no pun intended)


Monday, July 30, 2007
Eating Camel.
Today, July 30t

In The Curiosities of Food, published in 1859, Peter Lund Simmons (who probably did not actually eat it but quotes others) says:

“ The flesh of the camel is dry and hard, but not unpalatable. … In Barbary, the tongues are salted and smoked for exportation to Italy and other countries, and they form a very good dish. The flesh is little esteemed by the Tartars, but they use the hump cut into slices, which, when dissolved in tea, serves the purpose of butter.”


“Camel [meat] has a distinctive taste which show up in a peculiar way. While you are eating it, it tastes just like rather ordinary beef or relatively tasty veal (depending on age), but when you’ve finished and run your tongue around your mouth, you suddenly discover a slightly sweetish after-taste, like horse but not quite so much, very faint, but definite.”


Camel’s Feet Vinaigrette.
Soak the feet of a young camel. Cook them in a white court-bouillon in the same way as for Calf’s feet. Drain them. Serve with a vinaigrette sauce.

hollis petri
03-07-2008, 03:27 AM
I did this diet twice a couple years apart. lets not delve into the reasons I had to do it again (beer, ben&Jerries).

In both cases I lost 23-25 pounds and had radically better cholesterol/ tri numbers after the diet.

The main reason I'm posting is to show the diet I followed the the 2nd time. Which was really a modified version that I had equal success with. i took the proposed vdiet macronutrient ratios and made a version where I used real food. So in addition to having the protein shake twice a day i had 3 meals a day.

Neither time did i use the proposed Surge work out drink. Did not think i needed the carb bomb and I thought the stuff tasted horrid.

(attached is the training day and non training day diet i used)

Bryan Friedman
03-07-2008, 06:21 AM
I did this diet twice a couple years apart. lets not delve into the reasons I had to do it again (beer, ben&Jerries).

In both cases I lost 23-25 pounds and had radically better cholesterol/ tri numbers after the diet.

The main reason I'm posting is to show the diet I followed the the 2nd time. Which was really a modified version that I had equal success with. i took the proposed vdiet macronutrient ratios and made a version where I used real food. So in addition to having the protein shake twice a day i had 3 meals a day.

Neither time did i use the proposed Surge work out drink. Did not think i needed the carb bomb and I thought the stuff tasted horrid.

(attached is the training day and non training day diet i used)

Hollis, from my understanding this is actually called a PSMF (Protein Sparing Modified Fast) Diet and was popularized by Lyle McDonald.

In some interviews he's done he generally bashed the Velocity Diet because it doesn't instill "proper eating habits" with real food.

Mike ODonnell
03-07-2008, 07:16 AM
he generally bashed the Velocity Diet because it doesn't instill "proper eating habits" with real food.

which can be the danger with any quick diet fix out there.

Gittit Shwartz
03-07-2008, 01:39 PM
I'm considering flavoring my shakes with Tabasco.
Seriously, all this nauseating sweetness is going to drive me to it soon... Banana shake with Tabasco... How bad can that be?
:p
Oh, and my whole food meal was grilled fish, antipasti (squash, peppers, cauliflower, yams), salad, and a sun-dried tomato from Heaven.

Allen Yeh
03-10-2008, 07:04 AM
Interesting observation, in a caloric restriction type diet as the V-diet I've noticed that the drinking a shake every 3 hours is necessary so I don't feel like I'm starving. Even though this is a very low carb diet.

Solid meal this week for me was:
Chipotle salad =
Romaine + chicken + steak + tomato salsa + cheese + chipotle honey vinigarette

Laurie's meal was:
Chipotle fajita burrito =
flour tortilla + little bit of rice + steak + corn + cheese + sour cream + lettuce

I know not exactly approved fare for the solid meal but at least we fessed up!

Allen Yeh
03-13-2008, 07:56 AM
Update as of 3/13(day 1 of week 4)

I'm down another 4 pounds and 0.5" off my belly, 0.5" off my hips and 0.5" off my thigh as well as my neck. So that makes for a total of 14 pounds and a total of 2.5 inches off the belly and 3 inches off the hips

This week she was sick again on Wednesday and had nothing to drink again as well as no shakes. Despite all that she was still down 4 pounds from last week. She was down 3/4" off her hips, and 0.5" off her thigh. She has lost a total of 8 pounds, 3.5 inches off her bell, 1.25 inch off her waist, 0.5 inches off her calf, 1.5 inches off her thigh.

Not having too much of a problem only when I don't have my shake on schedule or if I stay up too late and have no shakes left for the day.

Jay Cohen
03-13-2008, 12:27 PM
Allen;

Excellent job, keep at it, keep posting comments.

Tirzah Harper
03-14-2008, 04:56 PM
Allen, your joint results are tempting me mightily...
My usual eat-good-work-out-more-lose-weight isn't working at all this winter; I seem to be fattening up with almost no provocation on a diet that's cleaner than it's ever been (not Zone or paleo, and probably never going to be anything strict).:mad:

Jay, if you hunt a camel, I'll help butcher for a share of the meat, okay?

Tirzah Harper
04-01-2008, 07:18 AM
Weighed & measured again – left my log book at the gym so I can’t compare yet, oops.
I started out with ten pounds to lose to get to my “sweet spot”.
I lost three of those last week, and ¾” off of each hips & thigh, which I was expecting to hang on for last. Pleasant surprise. It’s only three pounds gone, but it’s showing up all over!
Days four and five were roughest so far, and it’s gotten easier the last couple of days.
My solid meal ended up being pasta and rice at a friend’s house, which wasn’t ideal by any means but WAS very tasty.
So I’m encouraged.
I’ve also learned how much snacking I do on an ongoing basis throughout the day! Hopefully this will get me out of the habit. I’m learning to like unsweetened tea, too.

Side note: I’ve been using hops as a sleeping aid this week, either smoking them or in my tea. I’ve been sleeping very well.

Derek Weaver
04-03-2008, 01:58 AM
I'm considering giving this one a go just to prove to myself that I can do it. Anyone use non-Biotest supplements (not a fan of the shameless self promoting they do over there)?

If so, which ones (brands for protein powder, thermogenics aren't for me) and where did you get them from? This could be quite a change from the Paleo, Zone-ish/IF plan I've been following for a while, but I want to really challenge myself. Plus, dealing with an ankle injury for close to 3 months now has left me in a up and down food funk I can't seem to break.

Gittit Shwartz
04-03-2008, 02:55 AM
I did. It caused too many problems. I don't know for sure if the type of protein powder was the big culprit, but I was using whey sweetened with acuselfume-K. You could check out my log (http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2220). Good luck!

Tirzah Harper
04-03-2008, 05:02 AM
The only thing I *did* buy from Biotest were the thermogenics.:p

I made a custom protein mix thru trueprotein.com

30% whey protein isolate cold-filtration
25% micellar casein
25% milk protein isolate
5% dextrose
5% psyllium seed husk fiber
5% BCAAs
5% MCT powder

added vanilla, stevia, and their aminogen/vitamin-mineral mix.
It, ah, doesn't taste like ANYTHING I want to eat, so I'm very glad I got various flavorings: cocoa, instant coffee, peppermint, almond, orange - I might add something else just for variety's sake later; I don't know.

Biotest's protein powder has a couple of artificial sweeteners which, the last time I used a PP with artificial sweeteners, the mucus membranes in my mouth swelled up and scared me a lot. So no way was I buying that under any circumstances; this blend matched the Biotest brand's nutritional information well enough that I'm able to just sub it in directly in their instructions. But as I said, the taste is SEVERELY lacking in anything yummy. Nor do I recommend trueprotein's natural orange flavor pack, unless I've been using it all wrong.:eek:

The rest of the stuff (Omega 3-6-9 oil, flax seed meal, fiber, a PWO electrolyte drink to add to PP for my workout days) I got from Vitacost.

By the time I paid for all of that - much cheaper than from Biotest, I'll add - there's no way I was NOT going to finish the diet, thankyouverymuch!

JimmyBlair
04-11-2008, 08:46 AM
I did the v-diet and had great results. 18lbs.

I love trueprotein, maybe you picked the wrong flavors lol.

If anyone wants to build a custom blend at trueprotein you can PM me for my discount code.

JimmyBlair
04-11-2008, 08:47 AM
Plus you had all that other stuff mixed in, having done it both ways I can say it taste much better just having protein only blends.

Garrett Smith
04-11-2008, 09:32 AM
Those isolated BCAAs are pretty nasty, Jimmy is likely very correct about the reason why your mix it tasted so bad.

Tirzah Harper
04-11-2008, 10:19 AM
BCAAs taste nasty? Ah. That might explain it.:o

I quit the diet as I was no longer feeling anywhere close to healthy, and that's my #1 priority. Having headaches, nausea, metallic taste in my mouth? Dude, I'd rather add a LOT more exercise - and spring is making that a LOT more possible.

So it's back to whole, unprocessed, unrefined foods. Yum!

Gittit Shwartz
04-11-2008, 02:23 PM
I felt pretty bad on my last stint with the v-diet too. I keep wondering how come I felt so wonderful the FIRST time I did it. 1000 calories a day, 4-8 hours training every day of the week, I was obviously wasting away, but I felt constantly happy and energetic. Maybe it was the high dose of omega-3, maybe because I stopped drinking coffee (which always puts me on a mood and energy roller coaster), maybe it was the starvation euphoria effect. Maybe I was just happy to be reaching the perceived end of my war against body fat...
Any theories?

JimmyBlair
04-11-2008, 04:07 PM
Are you sure it was supposed to only be 1000 calories? You'd have to be pretty small (no offense) for that to be the calculation. Also, casein protein is an absolute must...which is why true protein is the way to go, cuz other than that casein gets freaking expensive.

Gittit Shwartz
04-12-2008, 01:28 AM
I'm small, started the diet at about 115lbs. And I used whey... I would NOT recommend my version to anyone.

Tirzah Harper
04-12-2008, 05:40 PM
Yeah, mine was 1050 calories/day for non-workout days.

JimmyBlair
04-14-2008, 07:47 AM
That would suck geesh.

Cal Jones
04-16-2008, 03:21 AM
I'm starting this soon also - just weight for my protein and hot rox to be delivered. I am going to see how I feel. I got the Lo Carb Gro but am concerned about the sweeteners to be honest (I only just gave up Diet Coke and chewing gum!) but we'll see. I have a holiday coming up so need results fast, otherwise I'd just go with a more healthy eating-based approach.

ErikHutson
04-19-2008, 01:06 PM
Anyone have a good cheaper alternative to Metabolic Drive? There pound per $ is way expesive then they use to be and im on a budget

Dave Van Skike
04-19-2008, 02:11 PM
tuna shake.
nitrean. from at large nutrition.

ErikHutson
04-20-2008, 03:10 AM
could I use ON 100% whey for the v-diet, provides nice options on flavors and is very good on the price (15 pounds for less then 120$) Which I really like cause I can then get some fat burners and have a 3 weeks of food for less then 150$

Gittit Shwartz
04-20-2008, 04:28 AM
Erik, learn from my experience and don't do it. Unless you can commit to taking 12 tiny shakes a day. Whey protein digests rapidly and causes a spike in insulin levels. You don't want that on a hypocaloric diet. At the very least mix it half and half with casein, and add fiber to all the shakes to slow it down a bit.

Allen Yeh
04-20-2008, 06:02 AM
I didn't do whey other than my PWO shakes and it was hard enough. I echo Gittit's sentiment. For the most part there is a reason for the supp's that were chosen.

ErikHutson
04-20-2008, 01:21 PM
Erik, learn from my experience and don't do it. Unless you can commit to taking 12 tiny shakes a day. Whey protein digests rapidly and causes a spike in insulin levels. You don't want that on a hypocaloric diet. At the very least mix it half and half with casein, and add fiber to all the shakes to slow it down a bit.

ya, good idea, ive done the v-diet before with metabolic drive back when you got more for your price, I literally spent 120$ for all my protein and hotroxs, I still have the reciept lol! but now they kept the same price and downed how much you get with it which is bs so im just going to probably grab 3 jugs of nitrean since ive heard good things about it.


Alright, just ordered 3 jugs of Nitrean which should hold me for about 3 weeks or so and am looking to start the diet up again this coming week.

My calorie intake is between 1600-1900 which was more then last time I did this but Im going to be supplementing Creatine from body fortress and that will add an extra 150 calories a day on non training days and 300 on training days which will bump me within my range. I will never again use Surge ever!

Gittit Shwartz
04-20-2008, 04:16 PM
Good luck & keep us posted on how you are doing!

Cal Jones
04-22-2008, 04:19 AM
I started yesterday also. I managed to find a supplier for the Metabolic Drive and Hot Rox in the UK and I don't mind spending £££ on those as it's actually cheaper than the equivalent grocery shopping.

First thing I noticed: Metabolic Drive tastes foul. Or rather, it's not so bad, but then the aftertaste is dreadful, and it repeats on me like you wouldn't believe. I intended to have four shakes yesterday as I wasn't training, but ended up having only three as I couldn't stomach any more. They really fill me up.

Second, didn't sleep at all well last night. Not sure if it was the Hot Rox or whether I was just overstimulated from the computer game I was playing. (I play a lot of games and am used to them - I made a career out of it after all). I started with one Hot Rox 2 x per day and took the second one at 2pm. Went to bed at 11pm. Felt tired but my mind wouldn't shut up and let me sleep.
I am also a lot hotter. The weather has got warmer, but I'm normally a cold person (the sort of woman who always has cold hands and feet! I was like a slab of marble when I was IFing). This morning I feel like I'm burning up. Can one little pill really do that?

I didn't buy any Surge - I don't see how it serves my personal needs, to be honest.

Allen Yeh
04-22-2008, 09:15 AM
I started yesterday also. I managed to find a supplier for the Metabolic Drive and Hot Rox in the UK and I don't mind spending £££ on those as it's actually cheaper than the equivalent grocery shopping.

First thing I noticed: Metabolic Drive tastes foul. Or rather, it's not so bad, but then the aftertaste is dreadful, and it repeats on me like you wouldn't believe. I intended to have four shakes yesterday as I wasn't training, but ended up having only three as I couldn't stomach any more. They really fill me up.

Second, didn't sleep at all well last night. Not sure if it was the Hot Rox or whether I was just overstimulated from the computer game I was playing. (I play a lot of games and am used to them - I made a career out of it after all). I started with one Hot Rox 2 x per day and took the second one at 2pm. Went to bed at 11pm. Felt tired but my mind wouldn't shut up and let me sleep.
I am also a lot hotter. The weather has got warmer, but I'm normally a cold person (the sort of woman who always has cold hands and feet! I was like a slab of marble when I was IFing). This morning I feel like I'm burning up. Can one little pill really do that?

I didn't buy any Surge - I don't see how it serves my personal needs, to be honest.

In regards to the metabolic drive....I would definitely not alter the amount of shakes they are telling you to take. It's based upon a caloric need formula so if you are cutting out a 4th shake you could be cutting up to 40 grams of protein which you will need in such a hypo-caloric state.

My wife was 140 and she was taking a total of 7 scoops of MD a day, she didn't use surge either because her workouts were mostly walking and stuff from the physical therapist.

Hot-Rox did a number on me too, not a huge fan, did 1 pill 2 x a day for the first 3 days and increased form there. I found if I took the 2nd dose too late in the day it would really mess up my sleep so I would just skip the dose if I didn't wake up early enough in the day. It says to take them 6 hours apart so your first and 3rd shake.

Cal Jones
04-22-2008, 11:43 AM
Yesterday was a bit of a one off, really, as I had a day off work and went to an amusement park in the morning (they have a small zoo and have cute new tiger cubs I just had to see...you know how it is!). So I had a shake before I left the house around 8.50am and then one when I got back at 2pm, and another later. On work days I generally have breakfast an hour after I arrive at around 10am, then a snack at 12, then lunch at 2-2.30ish, and then something when I get home. So I will replace those four meals with shakes and I'll be getting four in. (Which is what I've done today). Each shake is two scoops. Originally I was going to be trying to have four shakes on rest days and five on training days, but I can't see when I'll fit a fifth shake in. I'll stick with four for now and see how it goes.

I might look into having my first Hot Rox when I wake up and another at lunch, though I've left them at work for now so I'll see how well I sleep tonight. I've worked out today so hopefully, better than yesterday!

JimmyBlair
04-23-2008, 07:47 PM
I used www.trueprotein.com

its the best protein source there is, very inexpensive. 100% casein is $10 a lbs.


If you want, you can use my discount code for 5% off. Or 10% off 16lbs or more, which you deffinitely need for the v-diet.
The discount code is MLB323

Its a great site, you can build custom blends of any type of protein you want.

Email me if you need any help.

mjb07e@fsu.edu

I lost 18lbs on the v-diet.

Cal Jones
04-24-2008, 03:13 AM
Day 4 now and I am coming with something. My throat feels as though I've been gargling razor blades. I have had so many colds and infections over the last 6 months I am getting heartily sick of it. I hope I can chase this one off because I am supposed to be running a 10K on Sunday and have already paid the rather pricey entry fee.

Other than that, I'm doing fine on the shakes. I like the convenience of it and not having to think about food. I am never hungry nor do I feel weak or shaky.

Allen Yeh
04-24-2008, 03:50 AM
I know how you feel, my wife came down with a bad stomach bug about 2 weeks in and I ended up catching some flu-type thing at 3 weeks in.

ErikHutson
04-25-2008, 02:53 PM
Im on day 2 of the v-diet, for roughly 1600 cals yesterday and did a brisk 25min walk with 25 pound vest.


Im trying to find out a way to up my calories on training days since Im hoverin around 1600-1700 which is within my range but I would like some extra calories so im not starving later so Im substituting some things in.


Instead of flax seed im using Almonds, Ill have roughly 200-230 calories worth which is around 10-12 almonds for the entire day. My after workout drink Im going to have to throw in another Nitrean shake with creatine totaling 6 on training days and 5 on non training days. Im defiantly going to have to reorder some more protein unless I'm satisfied within the next few weeks with what I see. But right now my body is so tired since I Powerwash parking lots at night and workout and walk before I go to work hopefully my body will adjust within the next few days to the calories and I wont feel as run down.


My stats are looking like this

Weight days

1655 calories

Protein = 249g

Carbs = 87g (66g from creatine 2 servings)

Fats = 34g

Non Weight Days

1630 calories

Protein = 248g

Carbs = 55g (33g from creatine serving)

Fats = 47g

Cal Jones
04-25-2008, 03:47 PM
Good luck, Erik - I'm nearing the end of my first week. Doing well (aside from coming down with a bad cold, though my immune system is poor and this will have been the umpteenth infection in the last six months so I don't blame the diet). The only thing is I'm getting fed up with shakes (and specifically the artificial aftertaste) and I'm fantasising about savoury stuff...broccoli and chicken! I've lost half an inch each off my hips and waist.

One thing is as I'm not well I've not wanted to eat today and I've only managed to get down two shakes (two scoops each), so about 400 cals worth, plus the fish oil caps and what little skimmed milk I have in my tea. So I'm a bit low for today, but then I've barely moved anyway, so I guess it'll be alright.

How does everyone else manage the savoury cravings?

Garrett Smith
04-25-2008, 04:23 PM
How many people reading this thread got a significant cold within the first two weeks of starting this general diet plan?

I'm serious. Please chime in. I think it will benefit quite a few people.

ErikHutson
04-25-2008, 04:34 PM
How many people reading this thread got a significant cold within the first two weeks of starting this general diet plan?

I'm serious. Please chime in. I think it will benefit quite a few people.

This is my third time on the diet (over the past few years) and I havent received any type of cold. The thing I do notice is people are only taking in 1000 calories or a little more (this thread alone a few people have said thats all they took in) The sickness could be related to lack of following the diet precisely as prescribed or over exertion from exercising with the lack of calories. Ill report in if I do receive a cold this time around but I doubt I will since im taking a daily multi vitamin along with ample calorie intake and watching how much I do workout.

One thing I did notice is I slept like a baby last night, I got off my job at roughly 5am, went to bed at 6am and woke up at 4pm. Thats the first time ive slept that late in a long time.

People on the diet should also watch there sleep not getting enough has been known to weaken the immune system and bring on such colds.

Mike ODonnell
04-25-2008, 05:51 PM
Just for the record....I would say if you are catching colds...and lowering your immune system...then this may not be the right thing for you. Plenty of people lose weight eating whole foods....this seems too risky IMO for such an extended period of time....but hey, that's just me. Maybe some sort of real food, alternate day shake diet is a better healthy compromise that gets the same results without the risks or sickness.

Dave Van Skike
04-25-2008, 07:01 PM
How many people reading this thread got a significant cold within the first two weeks of starting this general diet plan?

I'm serious. Please chime in. I think it will benefit quite a few people.

only the weak (read skinny) got sick. which is to say, only people below a "healthy normal"bf range (my number is 12-18% anything less is vanity)

every fatass I know who's done it felt better. when I did it my energy went down but my tranquilo' went up and so did all my lifts.

Cal Jones
04-25-2008, 10:56 PM
Heh I definitely wouldn't put myself in the skinny category. I'm not really fat, although by Hollywood standards I'm a huge beast. My booty is sufficiently well padded that it would take me a looooong time to starve to death.
I started getting sick just over a year ago, which roughly coincides with just after I started Crossfitting. I did cut back on my training quite significanly (in case it was that that was lowering my immunity) but continued catching everything under the Sun anyway.
I had some blood tests recently - partly because I was concerned that I was catching a lot of colds and flu, but also because I was putting on weight despite eating mainly healthy foods. The results came back normal (including thyroid) although the doc said my white cell count was slightly down on what it should be.
I'm not too worried - the friend I went to the zoo with last Monday also has the same cold so we reckon some brat sneezed in the queue for something. I'm just aggrieved that I will (unless I make a miracle recovery today) miss my 10K tomorrow.
And after the lack of sleep I had last night - I was blowing my nose every 5 mins - I don't think that'll happen. C'est la vie.

Gittit Shwartz
04-26-2008, 10:03 AM
I didn't get really sick, but in the second week I got a headache and sore throat that lasted till I dropped the V-diet in the beginning of the third week. Also, I got really depressed. I don't know if this is significant, Dr. G.
Personally I have an idea that everybody breaks down at their weakest link. When I and some friends were training hard and often, invariably my friend would start getting very sick every other week, and I would get really depressed. My friend has had mono (immune system shot to hell), I have a very robust immune system - very rarely get full-on sick - but I get into emotional downs pretty easily.

Cal Jones
04-26-2008, 03:49 PM
Mono is glandular fever, right? The doc said it was possible I'd had it though it can be difficult to tell from a normal cold or flu. Might explain why I catch every thing going. My immune system used to be bomb proof, but that seems to have changed with age.
This, what I have now, is definitely a cold - my head is full of snot. :mad:

I've stuck with the diet, though as I've hardly moved (I haven't stepped outside my flat for two days and only really moved between the computer, the bed and the bathroom) my energy needs have been low.
However, I am getting heartily sick of the taste of Metabolic Drive. The guy who made the diet said it was like dessert. Yes, dessert served up by Satan! I have the chocolate flavour (I originally ordered vanilla but they'd run out) - I dread to think what orange tastes like. :eek:
I thought I would definitely stick this for two weeks but I don't know if I can take much more of these shakes. Even thinking about the taste makes me feel nauseous.
I've had three today - one less than I'm supposed to. But as I said, I've not moved, hardly.

On the other hand, I like not having to shop. That's pretty nice. I just...want to eat something savoury!

I have made progress, definitely, but I took a chair into the bathroom so I could see myself in the mirror and there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. Waist up isn't so bad...waist down is a disaster. I could live off these vile shakes for a month and I still wouldn't have come close to getting where I want to (and I don't know I can hack these too much longer...) Starting to wonder if I should just get lipo. :confused:

ErikHutson
04-28-2008, 02:16 AM
Well Im done, I gave it a shot again, only 5 days in but I didnt like who I was during those 5 days, very moody, depressed at night and just found my self craving all sorts of things that made it horrible. But good news is I no longer want fast food but really healthy good food. Ill still be doing roughly 1600 cal diet but will incorporate more solid foods in (see paleo diet.) My whole reason to doing this was to et my body use to low calories like the paleo diet does and my whole plan was to switch to it afterwards so hopefully Ill have a nice transition now that im not cravin junk food.

Cal Jones
04-28-2008, 01:09 PM
I feel fine on it, to be honest (other than the cold...but as I said to someone else, the friend I went out with last week also has it so I don't blame the diet). However I am so sick of the taste and texture of these shakes. Bleeeeeh!
I bought two tubs of protein...one is sat on my desk at work and the other is here at home and almost empty. As I won't be able to order more in time I got some mini cans of tuna and will have those with lettuce in the evening. I may consider doing another week of just protein after that but I can't imagine tuna and lettuce will derail me at all. :P
Like you I don't fancy junk at all...I am craving savoury foods, especially lean chicken and veggies.
Which is what I'm having tonight for my first solid meal in a week. Hurrah.

Mike ODonnell
04-28-2008, 01:17 PM
Waist up isn't so bad...waist down is a disaster. I could live off these vile shakes for a month and I still wouldn't have come close to getting where I want to (and I don't know I can hack these too much longer...) Starting to wonder if I should just get lipo. :confused:

2 different hormonal and fat allocation systems working.....slow and steady wins the race...that and activity level may need to increase to start burning fat from the "trouble" spots. (Even if it's just more walking or hiking). Don't expect miracles....it doesn't work that way...never has, never will...there's a reason people still crank out diet books and make money, because people are not getting lasting results on any of them.

Brian Shanks
05-09-2008, 12:32 PM
Interesting stuff!
It seems crazy that you aren't eating any veggies. Hell I went most of my life without eating veggies, now that I am eating them, I don't know that I want to give them up.
The other thing that worries me is the minimal cardio. This would really eat into my training and force me to change things up big time. I don't think I could go to MMA class or BJJ class during this diet.

I am looking to lose just a little around the waist line, darn love handles and still hanging on.

I am going to go back to the drawing board Sunday and see if I can re-work some things, but if I don't have success, I might turn to this.

Thanks for the write ups.

Bry

Mike ODonnell
05-09-2008, 01:57 PM
Along the lines of the whole no veggies thing......check out this about the Inuit (http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/2008/04/13/the-inuit-paradox-high-fat-lower-heart-disease-and-cancer/)...of course they still got vitamins...but you don't really need a ton to be healthy....like what it is 60mg of Vit C per day not to get scurvy? Which is like 3 brocolli? (Guestimating) But...you still need your vitamins somewhere....and I am not going to eat seal blubber or livers.

Cal Jones
05-10-2008, 03:57 AM
I have been adding solid food to the diet - just small cans of tuna with green veggies, and once a week, a more substantial meal (tonight I will have steak and salad).
I still feel incredibly carb-depleted, though. I'm struggling with my workouts, to be honest - strength is there, but endurance has gone. If I'm doing something intensive like power cleans/clean and press or deadlifts, I have to stop my sets not because of muscle failure but because my heart and lungs can't hack it. I also tried going for a run last week with the intention of covering my usual three miles, only to have to cut it to two because there was no gas in the tank.
I have lost 9lbs though, and two inches off my waist.

Derek Weaver
05-10-2008, 05:43 PM
Cal,
I would strongly suggest adhering to the recommendations on the V-Diet.

Too much activity and you will get absolutely destroyed. It's based on high intensity workouts with lots of NEPA work. Trying to cover 3 miles, bike in races or anything else will lead to a pretty dramatic failure.

I believe Waterbury came up with a 3x/week "routine" for the v-diet. Kind of CF-ish, hints of EDT.

Cal Jones
05-13-2008, 08:52 AM
Yup I actually like to run outdoors for my mental health (I have nice green spaces full of trees to run on) but it's too hot now anyway, and my achilles tendon has been grumbling for a while.
I walk a few miles a day anyway, so that will have to do.

Eric VanCleave
05-17-2008, 12:51 PM
I'm thinking of trying the V-diet but it would be difficult drinking a shake every few hours due to my job. I'm thinking an IF eating plan with an 8 hour window to consume all of my calories would work for me. Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks.

Derek Weaver
05-17-2008, 11:32 PM
I'm thinking of trying the V-diet but it would be difficult drinking a shake every few hours due to my job. I'm thinking an IF eating plan with an 8 hour window to consume all of my calories would work for me. Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks.

I have yet to give the V-Diet a go, although it is on my list to get done before the year is out. From my understanding, one should not deviate from the program and schedule.

Can you mix several up in the morning, into several shakers or other containers and keep with you in a insulated thermos/cooler/lunchbox?

Allen Yeh
05-18-2008, 05:53 AM
I'm thinking of trying the V-diet but it would be difficult drinking a shake every few hours due to my job. I'm thinking an IF eating plan with an 8 hour window to consume all of my calories would work for me. Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks.

I would suggest not trying to do this.

Mike ODonnell
05-18-2008, 09:19 AM
I would suggest not trying to do this.

Not trying the V-diet or IF?

Weight loss comes down to 2 things...hormonal signaling and total calories. Anything can work if you fine tune it correctly. Take V-diet shakes, add in Paleo foods, Warrior Diet timing, IF hours...put in a blender (pardon the pun)....drink shakes during the day and one solid meal at night. It all can work. The key is to find what works for your lifestyle, get in enough protein to retain muscle (you need the shakes every 2 hours because powder protein goes through you too quickly while whole foods have a longer release of amino acids into the bloodstream, hence the superiority of whole food proteins), enough fat to enhance nitrogen sparing and ketone production, and limit carbs enough to fuel brain function and refill muscle glycogen as needed without spilling over into fat cells...all while in a total calorie deficit state to promote the use of fat for fuel (and using supplement fat burning pills to keep the your thermogenesis going while you are in a low calorie state. Which of course can work in cycles).

My point? There is no one right way....just what you can adapt to your lifestyle and get results from.

Dave Van Skike
05-18-2008, 09:35 AM
Not trying the V-diet or IF?



My point? There is no one right way....just what you can adapt to your lifestyle and get results from.

I think he means doing an all liquid PMSF with a 4 hour feeding window. It sounds needlessly hard and stupid but then so does a lot of stuff. whatever, try it...

it will suck but then you'll have learned something useful.

Allen Yeh
05-18-2008, 10:15 AM
Not trying the V-diet or IF?

I'd suggest not trying to do the V-diet and IF at the same time.

Mike ODonnell
05-18-2008, 10:23 AM
I'd suggest not trying to do the V-diet and IF at the same time.

I'd agree....although I think I am going to try a weekday combination...2 shakes to start off (no sugars, protein+fat) of 50g protein each every 2 hours....then 2 whole food meals later to get another 100g+ of whole protein food sources before going to sleep.....all in an IF window of 8 hours....keeping workouts AM fasted.....just to see what happens.....getting enough calories is not an issue (although still need some deficit for fat burn)...as I can eat. That and weekends are whatever.....no set schedule.

Eric VanCleave
05-18-2008, 01:28 PM
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I guess I'm heading off to the store to purchase some shakers to do this thing right. With my work equipment, kettlebell, gym bag, and now cooler full of shakers in my patrol car, I have no room for bad guys.

Allen Yeh
05-19-2008, 04:55 AM
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I guess I'm heading off to the store to purchase some shakers to do this thing right. With my work equipment, kettlebell, gym bag, and now cooler full of shakers in my patrol car, I have no room for bad guys.

Keep us posted on how things go.

Cal Jones
05-20-2008, 04:57 AM
My progress has halted.
First week, dropped 6lbs. Second week, dropped 2lbs. Third week, dropped 1lb. Fourth week, no change. I've lost 2 inches from my waist and an inch from my hips. Maybe a little more than that.
I've under two weeks until my holiday now and am happy with the losses I've had so far but would like to lose a little more before I go.
Unfortunately my energy has bottomed out and I can't push myself in the gym like I could before, so increasing intensity is out at this stage. Even doing stuff like cleans or squats makes my heart hammer like it's trying to get out through my ribs and I get close to greying out. (I don't have a heart problem before you ask - it's just I'm carb depleted. I've also had plenty of grey outs before from standing up too fast, but it seems worse with this diet).
I went out for a Japanese meal last week with a friend - I stuck mainly to sashimi and vegetables but had three pieces of unagi sushi and felt full of energy on Thursday. Wondering if I should eat a bit more again now.

chris hill
05-21-2008, 07:10 AM
Cal, for some reason i think your in england. Is this right? If so which products are you using for the diet?

Derek Weaver
05-22-2008, 01:07 AM
Cal,
If you are done with your 28 days, it's time to transition. Look at the thread on t-nation and you'll see some ideas. Also, I think the original author wrote a "2.0" article. Check it out.

Cal Jones
05-22-2008, 01:47 AM
Chris - yes I am but I can get Metabolic Drive (Low Carb Grow) and Hot Rox from a supplement company online. They are a little slow to deliver sometimes though... *looks at almost empty tub of Metabolic Drive*

I don't take Surge - I think that would be counter productive for me. And I take own brand fish oil caps from Holland and Barrett.

I was under the impression the original V-Diet was 8 weeks. I've not done it 100% strictly because I've been eating canned tuna in the evenings (I was completely strict the first week but the savoury cravings got too much - I was even dipping my finger into the salt dish and licking it off!) I have not cheated at all in any other way, though - no sweets, chocolates, carbs, nuts or raisins (the last two are a particular weakness for me) or any of that stuff and the funny thing is that I don't even think much about food now, whereas I'd obsess before. I am considering continuing with the drinks while I'm at work and just eat in the evenings - it's really convenient.

My holiday is coming up in just over a week and I'll be living off terrible theme park food for the duration (I'll make as many good choices as possible but, having done amusement park tours before, I know they are not wonderful for choice) so I guess I'll have to go straight back on V-Diet when I get back, anyway. But we'll see.

chris hill
05-22-2008, 03:38 AM
Chris - yes I am but I can get Metabolic Drive (Low Carb Grow) and Hot Rox from a supplement company online. They are a little slow to deliver sometimes though... *looks at almost empty tub of Metabolic Drive*

I don't take Surge - I think that would be counter productive for me. And I take own brand fish oil caps from Holland and Barrett.

Would you mind sharing with me the supp company you are using.

H&B's 250 fish oil caps for £4.74 (sale price) is certainly the best price i've found for a standard cap.

Allen Yeh
05-22-2008, 04:33 AM
Chris - yes I am but I can get Metabolic Drive (Low Carb Grow) and Hot Rox from a supplement company online. They are a little slow to deliver sometimes though... *looks at almost empty tub of Metabolic Drive*

I don't take Surge - I think that would be counter productive for me. And I take own brand fish oil caps from Holland and Barrett.

I was under the impression the original V-Diet was 8 weeks. I've not done it 100% strictly because I've been eating canned tuna in the evenings (I was completely strict the first week but the savoury cravings got too much - I was even dipping my finger into the salt dish and licking it off!) I have not cheated at all in any other way, though - no sweets, chocolates, carbs, nuts or raisins (the last two are a particular weakness for me) or any of that stuff and the funny thing is that I don't even think much about food now, whereas I'd obsess before. I am considering continuing with the drinks while I'm at work and just eat in the evenings - it's really convenient.

My holiday is coming up in just over a week and I'll be living off terrible theme park food for the duration (I'll make as many good choices as possible but, having done amusement park tours before, I know they are not wonderful for choice) so I guess I'll have to go straight back on V-Diet when I get back, anyway. But we'll see.


It's 4 weeks then there are transition weeks where you move from 3 shakes a day + 1 solid meal for a week then 2 shakes + 2 solid meals etc...

Cal Jones
05-23-2008, 02:36 AM
Chris - certainly, it's http://www.elitesupplements.co.uk/ (safe, afaik)
They are generally fine - they have a good range of stuff and all the Biotest supplements, and accept pay via Paypal. However, they've often run out of my preferred flavours and they can take a few days to send stuff through. I'm hoping my new tubs arrive today as I've run out again - probably best to order several at once if you can afford it.

Allan - OK noted! I guess I will need a transition week anyway before I go away or the shock might hit me hard. :)

chris hill
05-23-2008, 03:29 AM
Thanks Cal, i was hoping you had found a source of cheap Biotest products. However i still can't justify paying £31 for 2lbs of metabolic drive, when myprotein can supply 5kg (11lbs) of micellar casein for £45.00

Cal Jones
05-27-2008, 01:23 AM
The issue I've had with other brands is that I feel weaker on them. Personally, I do not like the taste of MD (it tastes strongly of artificial sweeteners) but I put up with it (and the expense) because it does the job.
Having said that, I've had to buy some other brand again because Elite still hasn't delivered my tubs.
I'm transitioning this week anyway as I'm off on holiday on Saturday.
I did have some ice cream at the weekend and it was goooood. :D

Emily Mattes
07-27-2008, 05:52 AM
I've been on the V-Diet (well, something like it--minus the supplements and with berries and sometimes honey in place of Surge) for two weeks now.

In case anyone did not catch that you're not supposed to use whey protein, do NOT use whey protein. I replaced Metabolic Drive with Low Carb Grow Whey after the first week to save money, and I have lost no weight since after losing six pounds the first week. It has been pretty disheartening and I am trying to stick it out on the whey until later this week when the micellar casein blend I ordered from TrueProtein arrives.

Mike ODonnell
07-27-2008, 07:43 AM
I've been on the V-Diet (well, something like it--minus the supplements and with berries and sometimes honey in place of Surge) for two weeks now.

In case anyone did not catch that you're not supposed to use whey protein, do NOT use whey protein. I replaced Metabolic Drive with Low Carb Grow Whey after the first week to save money, and I have lost no weight since after losing six pounds the first week. It has been pretty disheartening and I am trying to stick it out on the whey until later this week when the micellar casein blend I ordered from TrueProtein arrives.

IMO this diet will most likely NOT work without fat burning stimulants. Hence people are popping them while on it to promote thermogenisis. That and don't expect to lose 6lbs every week...as that first big drop is usually water/stored glycogen and very little fat. I'm not a fan of anything that people use to get quick weight loss.....because it's usually not lasting once you return to real foods again (that and all water gain can come back). Use it as a SHORT step towards a healthier lifestyle of eating REAL foods if you want....but don't expect miracles with this diet....or lasting ones (esp if you just plan on going back to old eating habbits).

Gittit Shwartz
07-27-2008, 09:59 AM
For as long as you're stuck with the whey, I'd recommend blending the shakes with flax seeds - the fiber will slow down digestion a bit. 2-3 tsp of flax seeds per shake should do it, and don't worry about the extra calories. I did the full velocity diet that way (not that I'd recommend it if you have a choice). Good luck!

Dave Van Skike
07-27-2008, 11:20 AM
IMO this diet will most likely NOT work without fat burning stimulants.

It works a charm without stims if you're fat enough.


I did it and lost 28 pounds of flubber, tried the stims and had to bail out. Just protein, fish oil and three cups of coffee a day, then folded in real protein for dinner, added salad at night and gradually worked reg food in...

Mike ODonnell
07-27-2008, 11:26 AM
and three cups of coffee a day

I would call that some sort of stimulant.

Dave Van Skike
07-27-2008, 11:55 AM
I would call that some sort of stimulant.


not at that dose...I'm a 8-10 cup a day man. had to cut down to 3 to keep my stomach happy.

Gittit Shwartz
07-27-2008, 02:37 PM
It works a charm without stims if you're fat enough.
I started the diet pretty lean (I had a 5 pack :) ) and cut the caffeine intake from 2-3 double espressos/day to 2-3 a week, no stimulants. Yes, it worked like a charm. However, I was making up for the absence of stimulants with extremely high training volume and I lost a good deal of muscle along with the fat. I think Hot-Rox is *supposed* to have a muscle sparing effect.

Emily Mattes
07-27-2008, 05:31 PM
Gittit, I've been taking in about eight tablespoons of flax a day to round out the calories. Alas, still problems!

Emily Mattes
07-31-2008, 07:51 AM
So, I went ahead and bought some micellar casein protein powder at GNC over the weekend to get off the god-awful whey. I've actually gained a pound since Sunday.

This whole experience has been depressing as all hell, but you know, I've only got a week-and-a-half left so I may as well stick with it. If I come off of the full V-Diet (or modified, I guess) having only lost five pounds, I will probably get the record for the most unimpressive results of any person who completed it.

Allen Yeh
07-31-2008, 07:58 AM
So, I went ahead and bought some micellar casein protein powder at GNC over the weekend to get off the god-awful whey. I've actually gained a pound since Sunday.

This whole experience has been depressing as all hell, but you know, I've only got a week-and-a-half left so I may as well stick with it. If I come off of the full V-Diet (or modified, I guess) having only lost five pounds, I will probably get the record for the most unimpressive results of any person who completed it.

Curious to as what your training has been like?

Emily Mattes
07-31-2008, 08:48 AM
3-4 days of Olympic lifting a week, sessions take about an hour-and-a-half or more. I'm sorry, I can't give you a run-down of the exact program, as I only started a month ago and my coach didn't give me a written program until this week, after I'd competed in a meet. The lifts themselves have not been very heavy, as they're drilling technique, but the squats, pulls, and assistance exercises have been much more so.

Allen Yeh
07-31-2008, 09:11 AM
I don't think it is necessary to use all the supplements to get the weight loss as my wife didn't use them and still lost a decent amount of weight. She wasn't working out but she was doing her daily 30-60 minute walks.

I know it seems like a lot of time but I think the NEPA walks helped more than the 3 days of lifting I did a week while on the V-diet.

Garrett Smith
07-31-2008, 09:43 AM
I love my NEPA hill walks on the weekends, great stress relief and it fits in with the Evolutionary Fitness "power law" idea.

Although I've never needed to do the Velocity Diet (or a modified, what I consider healthier version of it), I may need to in the future if the new baby influences the nutrition and exercise habits...

Emily Mattes
07-31-2008, 09:57 AM
Oh, you mean the NEPA walks as well! Crap, I forgot about those. Do you think that could be hindering my progress? But didn't Shugart prescribe them because he had an office job? I have a full-time job at a restaurant (eight hours of standing and moving around a day) and do about 30 minutes of PVC Olympic lift practice a day as well. Would that not suffice? But I can start adding in the walks anyway, heck, there can't be a downside.

*sigh* If I ever do this thing again I'm going to run the whole plan by one of these threads rather than fixing things as I go along.

Allen Yeh
07-31-2008, 10:50 AM
*sigh* If I ever do this thing again I'm going to run the whole plan by one of these threads rather than fixing things as I go along.

Same thing for me! I lost weight but there are things I would do differently as well. I was good about the NEPA walks for the first 2 weeks then slacked badly.

Dave Van Skike
07-31-2008, 01:58 PM
Same thing for me! I lost weight but there are things I would do differently as well. I was good about the NEPA walks for the first 2 weeks then slacked badly.


Truth is were I to do it again, I'd go with soemthing similar....

3 protein shakes per day with fiber added, 3 cups of coffee max, a shitload of fish oil, a dinner of meat and a green veg. less than 50g of carbs per day. one cheat meal per week.


Walk for an hour in the AM.
run the 40 day workout at lunch...5 excercises 2 sets of 5 or 3 sets of three M-F.

a press, a pull, a squat a "core" excersise and one quick lift...

Like
Press
RDL
Front Squat
Power Clean
Windmills

Whenever I need to drop some weight that's the bones of what I go with and it works everytime...

thing is..it looks like a totally mainstream Cosmo diet, slimfast all day, a sensible meal, light cardio and weight training.....

Allen Yeh
08-01-2008, 03:58 AM
Dave's option seems a lot more appealing than a full blown V-diet.

Dave Paton
08-01-2008, 12:32 PM
Doesn't Metabolic Drive have some whey-protein? the first ingredient listed is whey protein. what's the difference between this and regular whey protein?

Dave Van Skike
08-01-2008, 01:35 PM
met drive is just one of the many blended protein powders that contains a sizable bit of casien. casien gives a nice texture and is a slower digesting protein than whey...science nerds can pull some studies on how whey spikes insulin or some such truck. short answer, you'll stay full longer on a blended protein (i've even used soy blenbded in and didn't get gyno or anything....

Tom Rawls
08-06-2008, 04:33 PM
how much of the weight dropped is water--gylcogen stores reduced, water shed?

I'm curious if there's some immediate weight rebound as a result of taking on fluid after ending the extreme version of this puppy.

Gittit Shwartz
08-07-2008, 12:42 AM
how much of the weight dropped is water--gylcogen stores reduced, water shed?

I'm curious if there's some immediate weight rebound as a result of taking on fluid after ending the extreme version of this puppy.

There most definitely is... same as any low carb diet. I can't say how much, but from what I've seen it's not a significant percentage of the total weight lost.

Dave Van Skike
08-07-2008, 09:05 AM
how much of the weight dropped is water--gylcogen stores reduced, water shed?

I'm curious if there's some immediate weight rebound as a result of taking on fluid after ending the extreme version of this puppy.

I went from 235-202, rebound was up to 208 after about a week of slowly introducing carbs. it stayed level there on a normal eating.

Tom Rawls
08-07-2008, 11:16 AM
that's helpful, Dave.

30 days ago I was a bit under your starting weight. Just counting calories and avoiding crap (insofar as a weak-minded man is able), I'm down about 12 pounds. I might give the V-diet a go if I hit a sticking point. I'm looking to get back to playing weight in college, which was 195ish.

Jacob Rowell
09-27-2008, 08:53 AM
I'm considering recommending this to someone who has become a bit "stuck" on the zone (about 90% compliance with paleo-ish foods),

I'm lost when it comes to the supplements. i've never taken anything other than cheap whey.

The suggestions I see in the original V-Diet articles is Metabolic Drive, but it's on the expensive side, and some say it tastes like hell. Nitrean seems to be a good alternative - gets good reviews and whatnot, not as expensive. Any of you guys tried it and can comment on the taste? is it of similar quality to the metabolic drive?

The other supplements, are they necessary? Fish Oil and milled flax seem great, but Hot Rox and Surge?

Appreciate any comments, anything outside of fish oil, cheap whey, and zma are outside of my realm of experience when it comes to supplements.

Mike ODonnell
09-27-2008, 09:22 AM
I'm considering recommending this to someone who has become a bit "stuck" on the zone (about 90% compliance with paleo-ish foods)

If someone is stuck on the zone, perhaps they should just try a carb-cycling plan....as the zone is not that. Lower carb cycles take off fat for a reason.

Liam Dougherty Springer
09-27-2008, 09:32 AM
Mike always so sensable... can't we at least get a pill or powder to "enhance" the human food?:p

Allen Yeh
09-27-2008, 09:35 AM
I would try to follow things as closely as possible. I would NOT recommend a cheap whey as a replacement for Metabolic Drive. You want a casein protein that will have some satiating effects. If not you will find a person starving and that will lead them to break. Metabolic drive can be quasi expensive but taste wise I like it. I'd say vanilla and chocolate are the staples while the fruity things are just to change it up. I haven't tried Nitrean but I had a converation with Shaf a few weeks ago about a metabolic drive replacement and he indicated something from www.trueprotein.com was what Lyle Mcdonald recommends. Check this out:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20126

As for the other stuff:

Fish oil - I like flameout but you can probably get similiar stuff for the same price
flax - milled flax seed that you keep in the freezer
fiber - fiber choice tablets, at some point you miss solid food so much you enjoy every damn chalky bite!
nut butter - doesn't have to be peanut butter, some days instead of adding it to my shake I'd just eat my tablespoon straight out of the jar
hot-rox - I'm iffy on this, I did use it at a low dosage but I didn't like how edgy it made me. I'd say it dependso n the person for this. It does help as an appetite suppresant so I wouldn't out of hand dismiss this
zma- no problems using this as you would normally, empty stomach before bed

If you want more detail info I can dig up some links for oyu from Shugary himself.

workout recommendations:
3 strength sessions a week
7 days a week of 30-45 minute NEPA walks

George Mounce
09-27-2008, 03:06 PM
Interesting how you recommend casein, and Greg in his book calls it "a lower quality filler protein used in inexpensive supplements" (OW, p. 259). I'd think everyone here would prefer whey to any casein-based supplement, I know I do.

Gittit Shwartz
09-28-2008, 05:26 AM
I second MOD's suggestion of low carb/carb cycling. IMO, the Velocity Diet is for people who have problems with compliance. But if that's not it, moving from Zone to lower carbs should kick start progress again.

Mike ODonnell
09-28-2008, 07:28 AM
Mike always so sensable... can't we at least get a pill or powder to "enhance" the human food?:p

Only if I am selling it

Jacob Rowell
09-28-2008, 07:49 AM
How much/how long of a carb reduction? Would you suggest equal compensation with protein and fats to maintain the same number of calories overall?

Mike ODonnell
09-28-2008, 10:50 AM
How much/how long of a carb reduction? Would you suggest equal compensation with protein and fats to maintain the same number of calories overall?

Start 3/1. 3 low, 1 high. The amount of high will be the deciding factor on how to keep losing fat, which is individual but can anywhere around 1g/lb of lean mass. Calories need to be lower on non-carb up days, mostly protein and fats....or activity needs to be higher, at a lower intensity.

You just have to start somewhere....see what happens and adjust until you see steady progress.

Allen Yeh
09-29-2008, 05:36 AM
Interesting how you recommend casein, and Greg in his book calls it "a lower quality filler protein used in inexpensive supplements" (OW, p. 259). I'd think everyone here would prefer whey to any casein-based supplement, I know I do.

I haven't read Greg's book but I have done the V-diet and read up on that. I've used casein in the past and wasn't thrilled but I thought Metabolic drive had a decent blend of whey-protein isolate, micellar casein (milk). You can get other blends but I would go for some type of protein that is more satiating than just 100% whey when doing something like the V-diet. Going by the calculator that Shugart came up with I think I was sitting at ~1700 calories total so the satiating thing goes a long way.

Jamila Bey
09-30-2008, 08:17 PM
Not.Even.Kidding.

I am so sensitive to that blend... It was sort of manic-making for me.

I realize I'm speaking to my own experience, but if coffee makes you jittery, consider HARD using that supp. My pulse rate is usually in the low 50 BPM range. Right out of bed with Hot Rox, my pulse was 90s!

I spoke very quickly, rambled and couldn't stop twitching. Hubby's usually really good about my workout affinity and such, but I do believe we would have divorced had I done 28 days on that stuff.

Kellen Love
12-02-2008, 09:50 AM
Dave, I just started doing the V Diet. I was wondering if you drank your shakes with milk or water, and also wondering if you added any form of carbs besides just having straight up protein shakes. Thanks.

Allen Yeh
12-02-2008, 10:06 AM
Dave, I just started doing the V Diet. I was wondering if you drank your shakes with milk or water, and also wondering if you added any form of carbs besides just having straight up protein shakes. Thanks.

Water, you can mix in other things that are have no calories like a little later on I'd use a little crystal light, or different extracts (vanilla, mint...etc), different seasonings like pumpkin pie spice...etc

Only other carbs were from the post workout shake, the fiber tablets and the 2 tbsp's on nut butter.

Dave Van Skike
12-02-2008, 10:26 AM
same thing Allen said. I never did the post workout thing, seemed like a bother.

Brandon Enos
01-15-2009, 11:37 AM
Coming into this a little late, but ehh. I've been eating healthy, sticking to a completely primal diet in an IF form for the last couple weeks now. I cheat once on Saturday and once on Sunday. One of those is a cheeseburger, the other chips and salsa. I am seeing results, however, at 27% BF (at least, probably more, dont know how accurate my measurements are) and about 56 pounds of body fat to lose to hit my goal weight of 206 pounds, I am considering the V-diet to kind of kick my ass a little bit.

My thoughts were to do the 'V-diet Lite' http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_diet_mass/the_velocity_diet_lite
for a few weeks to kind of transition into it. I have two vacations coming up, one at the end of Jan, the other on Vday. So I figured I could use the V-diet Lite to transition for the next few weeks and start a full fledged v-diet the Monday after Vday.

Unless anybody on here has any good reasons as to why I shouldnt, open to hear anything, whether Ill listen depends on what you say, or if I see massive improvement on the lite version and dont feel a full V-diet is necessary, Ill start a log on the forums and keep people posted on whats happening, hopefully I can stick to it and see some huge improvements.

Allen Yeh
01-16-2009, 02:44 AM
I'd read Dan John's article detailing his V-diet experience if you haven't already.

A few things:
1. Prepare everything ahead of time baggies = good idea
2. Get shakers, for bringing shakes on the go
3. Do it as they recommend, with the recommended powders....etc I've read many accounts where people try to sub Metabolic drive with just whey and they end up giving up not even 1/2 way through.

Best of luck!

Kellen Love
01-22-2009, 06:17 AM
Should metcons be avoided while doing the V Diet?

Allen Yeh
01-22-2009, 07:16 AM
Should metcons be avoided while doing the V Diet?

I'd say if you just had to do them to keep them short (less than 20 minutes)and make sure you get a PWO shake in (doesn't have to be Surge but something along the same lines, I know there has been a lot of talk lately about chocolate milk being better than Surge, as long as it's a measured amount and you stay within the caloric guidelines.)

I believe in Dan's article he did a lot of complexes and stuff during the V-diet.

Kellen Love
01-24-2009, 04:05 PM
So I have another question. I've read conflicting statements on here about cardio so I thought I'd ask the experts. On the V-Diet, should I be doing HIIT or perhaps taking slow jogs of 30 minutes or so?

Dave Van Skike
01-24-2009, 04:15 PM
So I have another question. I've read conflicting statements on here about cardio so I thought I'd ask the experts. On the V-Diet, should I be doing HIIT or perhaps taking slow jogs of 30 minutes or so?

neither. start with walking. work your way up to traditional "cardio" after a couple weeks try limited intervals. you will gas quickly if your doing any sort of PSMF.

Derek Weaver
01-24-2009, 05:52 PM
Like Dave said, when going for extreme fat loss, it's all about NEPA.

I just found this out the hard way in the last few weeks...

I think I remember Dan John's T-Nation post V-Diet interview/article where he said he did Cosgrove's Afterburn stuff. That coupled with walks everyday should do just fine.

Kellen Love
01-24-2009, 08:00 PM
I don't want to sound like an idiot but what is NEPA?

Dave Van Skike
01-24-2009, 08:19 PM
I don't want to sound like an idiot but what is NEPA?


the acronyms are out of control..apologies.

non exercise physical activity. basically light activity, walking working in the yard, anything that has an energy cost but no recovery cost.

Kellen Love
01-24-2009, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the clarification. One more question. I have plenty have weight to lose, and have dabbled in crossfit but I'm too heavy to be great at the gymnastics and stuff. I read the forum on Afterburn, and I'm interested in it. I am a college student with limited money, so I was wondering if it would be well worth it to me to buy the Afterburn book and do those workouts. Also, I know theres a post for Afterburn but it's pretty much a dead thread so I thought I'd ask about it here since it was just brought up. P.S. thank you guys for your responses.

Kellen Love
01-24-2009, 08:39 PM
I also want to add that Afterburn seems good because as was mentioned in the Afterburn forum, you just do it. It's not up for you to decide. Because I'm not expert, just an athlete and college kid trying to get into shape. I take the knowledge I gain here and on crossfit.com and scale the workouts and build myself a plan, but the allure of Afterburn is that it's by an expert and should take the guesswork out of building a workout for myself. Input is greatly appreciated.

Derek Weaver
01-24-2009, 09:04 PM
Sorry, sorry... I love my acronyms. Thanks to Dave for stepping in and explaining the NEPA thing.

Regarding Afterburn: I don't think it would be a bad investment, but not necessary if you are limited on money and planning on investing fully in the 28 day V-Diet approach.

I'd think you could just as easily set up a density protocol that would kick things into gear (google EDT, Charles Staley etc. for more info).

the key is to not overdo it. You'll be in a big deficit. Performance PR's are unlikely to happen.

Mike ODonnell
01-24-2009, 09:18 PM
I also want to add that Afterburn seems good because as was mentioned in the Afterburn forum, you just do it. It's not up for you to decide. Because I'm not expert, just an athlete and college kid trying to get into shape. I take the knowledge I gain here and on crossfit.com and scale the workouts and build myself a plan, but the allure of Afterburn is that it's by an expert and should take the guesswork out of building a workout for myself. Input is greatly appreciated.

Watch out for experts....they are everywhere on the internet.

Afterburn + V-diet = disaster......no way was afterburn or any HIIT protocol built for a low cal/carb liquid diet. You'll burn out, get sick, and then go back to old habbits and gain more weight back than you lost. Find a workout program for you that is simple and easy to stick with, then tweak the diet. Plenty of people have lost plenty of weight with diet and walking. You can slowly start to add in more strength training (as most people should) but only when you are in control of your eating and able to recover from those workouts. Slow and steady....has worked since 10,000 BC (or something like that).

I'd rather see you healthy, lean and happy in 2 years than care about how much weight you can lose in 30 days (as easy go....easy come back)....longevity in results is what to aim for.

Kellen Love
01-24-2009, 09:23 PM
During the course of the V-Diet I'm going to lift pretty heavy 3-4 days a week and walk whenever I get a chance. I was more asking if when I finish the V-Diet, would the Afterburn program be worth my while. But Mike I do appreciate the reminder, I have a tendency to overestimate my skills or bite off more than I can chew.

Mike ODonnell
01-25-2009, 06:18 AM
Just want to make sure you don't overdo it....as that can lead to more harm than good. Most people want too much too soon....and that never works out in the long term. Enjoy what you do and how you eat...and at the end of the day you still should have energy and not feel bonked.

Robert McBee
01-27-2009, 02:11 PM
Interesting thread. I'm currently doing Greg's 16 wk cycle and think I might try the V-diet starting Feb 1. After reading all the casien vs. whey entries I was curious if anyone tried egg white protein for the shakes. I was checking out trueprotein.com and thought that a micellular casien and egg white with a minor amount of whey might be good.

Other minor additions/deviations I was planning are:
a) Stick with current intake of CLO(3-4g daily) and 4000 iu's Vit. D due to no sun exposure this time of year.
b) Cinnamon added to shakes or as caps for flavor and insulin mgt.
c) ZMA + 5HTP at bedtime
d) BCAA's PWO and re-introduce CellMass(creatine supp) the last two weeks(I'm experimenting currently with cycling the stuff 2 wks on/2 wks off)
e) nix the oatmeal/berries meal and replace with steak, yam, salad
f) will increase fat intake if lifts start to suffer

I might skip the Hot Roxx since I do 2-4 shots of espresso most days already. I might cut this out too except for max attempt training sessions. I'll skip the Surge too and just have my last shake of the day since my own workouts don't end until 9-9:30pm.

Dave Van Skike
01-27-2009, 03:52 PM
Interesting thread. I'm currently doing Greg's 16 wk cycle and think I might try the V-diet starting Feb 1. After reading all the casien vs. whey entries I was curious if anyone tried egg white protein for the shakes. I was checking out trueprotein.com and thought that a micellular casien and egg white with a minor amount of whey might be good.

Other minor additions/deviations I was planning are:
a) Stick with current intake of CLO(3-4g daily) and 4000 iu's Vit. D due to no sun exposure this time of year.
b) Cinnamon added to shakes or as caps for flavor and insulin mgt.
c) ZMA + 5HTP at bedtime
d) BCAA's PWO and re-introduce CellMass(creatine supp) the last two weeks(I'm experimenting currently with cycling the stuff 2 wks on/2 wks off)
e) nix the oatmeal/berries meal and replace with steak, yam, salad
f) will increase fat intake if lifts start to suffer

I might skip the Hot Roxx since I do 2-4 shots of espresso most days already. I might cut this out too except for max attempt training sessions. I'll skip the Surge too and just have my last shake of the day since my own workouts don't end until 9-9:30pm.


Smart changes Robert. You'll probably have good luck with that. BCAA's are not soemthing I've done but creatine will change the scale...a lot in soem people, it's no big deal if you plan for it. The "Free" Meal you planned is great, waaay better than just a bowl of cereal.

Robert McBee
01-27-2009, 05:53 PM
Thanks for the feedback Dave. I dug deeper on the V-diet section (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_bodybuilding_velocity/velocity_diet_hq) of their site and they have basically included my tweaks already in their updated versions.

While reading the info I decided to use the Biotest 'Met. Drive' for the shakes. The label profile looks as good to me as any other. Additionally, its their specific idea and I want to compensate them. If the stuff messes up my 'mojo' or tastes nasty then I'll substitute. Egg protein + casein still makes sense to me but usually does taste nasty.

Did anyone mix in a 'greens' or powdered fruit/veg into their shakes. The site sells something called 'Superfood' that was discussed here some months back.

Derek Weaver
01-27-2009, 06:25 PM
Not the V-Diet, but similar:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/is-rapid-fat-loss-right-for-you.html

And seemed appropriate.

Robert,
I get what you're saying for the Metabolic Drive, but if you can something cheaper with a comparable blend, then I'd go that way. Biotest is doing just fine, I'm certain of it. I do hear though that Metabolic Drive is the easiest way to go in terms of taste and texture of the shakes (which seem to get very old, very fast).

I think you'd be well served to put a green + type of supplement powder in a shake or two per day.

Allen Yeh
01-28-2009, 03:04 AM
I like Superfood better than the green+ supplements just because when you add greens+ to a shake it makes the shake just nasty, adding superfood is a lot more tolerable to me.

I never tried it without Metabolic Drive but from all accounts on reading other's logs and stuff it seems that trying to sub in different formula such as just plain whey it turned out badly. I think a casein/egg mix might work, but I'd be leary the taste/consistency since you will be having anywhere from 5-7 shakes a day. The body transformation of Gustavo Pacho or soemthing had some good V-diet information as well.

You start getting very creative with the way you make shakes after a few days.

Robert McBee
01-29-2009, 03:58 PM
V-Diet Experiment
Daily Plan

6:00am - Wake, water, espresso, NEPA walk
8:00am - Shake + 'Superfood' + fish oil
11:00am - Shake w/flax meal, 4000ius Vit. D
2:00pm - Shake w/coconut milk, cinnamon, Fiber wafers
3:00pm - espresso
5:00pm - Shake w/flax meal, multi-vit.
8:00pm - Training - CA O-lifting WOD
9:30pm - Shake w/almond butter, fiber wafers, re-introduce creatine starting wk. 3
10:30pm - ZMA, 5-Htp, lights out

By Shugarts formula I need to be 'eating' 1500 cals on training days and the above hits that on the nose if I'm strict measuring the extra fats. This will give me a little over 200g of protein daily that I know I'm not coming close to now. I'm going to do the 1500 on the two non-training days and see what happens. I'm 5'10 and 165# so I don't have some huge amount to lose. Primarily I don't want my already meager lift totals to suffer.

So, I'll order the 'official' supps from Biotest tomorrow and probably won't have that until late next week. I'm going to start on Feb. 1 anyway and just use meat/eggs in the same amounts/ratios as closely as possible until the stuff arrives. To quote the Joker: "its all part of the plan"

Robert McBee
02-01-2009, 11:46 AM
V-diet
Day 1

Starting this experiment today although specified supps aren't expected until tomorrow or next day. Following scheduled plan posted above, subbing whole food protein in 35g amounts for the shakes. Had the 35g PRO(5 blox for you zoners) consisting of eggs and sausage for meal 1.

Sleep=Good/8hrs. Took NEPA walk upon waking following glass of water and green tea. Frozen streets tricky.

Generally stiff following wk 3 of Bulgarian cycle. Left wrist sore/radial aspect. Right hip into low back sore, most likely too tight hip flexor. Enthusiasm for training=High

Dave Van Skike
02-01-2009, 12:22 PM
I'm 5'10 and 165#

where are you going with this v-diet?

Robert McBee
02-01-2009, 01:03 PM
where are you going with this v-diet?

Hi Dave. Happy SuperBowl Sunday! I picked a bad day to stop drinkin'.

So, what are my goal(s) for test driving the V-diet at 5'10 and a whopping 165lbs? I know the 165 is scrawny already but too much of mine is fat. I haven't calculated yet but will use the formulas/tables in the Zone book. From past experience I know I'm in the high teens on my bodyfat% so I do have some fat to spare.

Nutrition has been very erratic lately meaning I actually haven't been eating enough. 100g PRO total most days. My plan for the V-diet has me at 200g daily so we'll see if that doesn't provide a good counterpoint to the overall deprivation. Total cals will only be 1500 but I haven't been getting that much some days anyway. No excuses for my lazy nutrition as I've been reading the PM long enough to know better.

My theory is that I might actually makes some gains on this thing and re-establish consistently good habits. I'll take a hard assessment at the mid-point. If my lifts are slipping and overall energy/outlook are too then I'll jack up the fat 300-500cals and see how that works for the next week.

Emily Mattes
02-01-2009, 03:09 PM
Why not just clean bulk and fill out the rest of that fat with muscle?

Dave Van Skike
02-01-2009, 03:12 PM
Hi Dave. Happy SuperBowl Sunday! I picked a bad day to stop drinkin'.

So, what are my goal(s) for test driving the V-diet at 5'10 and a whopping 165lbs? I know the 165 is scrawny already but too much of mine is fat. I haven't calculated yet but will use the formulas/tables in the Zone book. From past experience I know I'm in the high teens on my bodyfat% so I do have some fat to spare.

Nutrition has been very erratic lately meaning I actually haven't been eating enough. 100g PRO total most days. My plan for the V-diet has me at 200g daily so we'll see if that doesn't provide a good counterpoint to the overall deprivation. Total cals will only be 1500 but I haven't been getting that much some days anyway. No excuses for my lazy nutrition as I've been reading the PM long enough to know better.

My theory is that I might actually makes some gains on this thing and re-establish consistently good habits. I'll take a hard assessment at the mid-point. If my lifts are slipping and overall energy/outlook are too then I'll jack up the fat 300-500cals and see how that works for the next week.

tha sounds pretty well thought out. your lifts should slip...a bunch. I had god luck keeping strength steady by doing 5 days a week, one lift a day, just easy practice or a "power to the people" kind of set up, two or three exercise, 2 sets of 5.

good luck.

Derek Weaver
02-01-2009, 10:23 PM
Why not just clean bulk and fill out the rest of that fat with muscle?

Probably because his nutrient partioning is going to suck regardless of "clean" vs. not clean.

In most cases getting lean first tends to be the better move unless a) body comp. doesn't matter or b) you're so underweight you could cause yourself physical harm losing more weight.

Robert McBee
02-02-2009, 09:22 PM
V-diet
Day 2

Derek got to the heart of things pretty well Emily. Lately my nutrition has had this disconnect between consistently doing the right thing or not. This serves several purposes.
A)Dietary Bitch-Slap to get back on track
B)Satisfy curiosity concerning all I've read about the V-diet and/or find out just how soon a fool and his money are parted.
C)Experiencing this firsthand would also make me more comfortable if I were to recommend this or something similar to a few seriously overweight folks I work with who, like me, know what to do but don't.

Anyhow, stuck to the plan as stated. Felt good all day but every 3 hours I was really hungry. Took a NEPA walk at 6am but missed lifting tonight. First missed workout of the whole cycle. Bummed

Happy Groundhog Day!
Mmm groundhog...

Jay Cohen
02-03-2009, 02:03 AM
Robert;

If you have trouble eating a sound diet BEFORE attempting the V-Diet, what makes you think, or what changes are you going to implement, when the diet is over in 28 days.

Since your eating pattern is going to radically change over these next 4 weeks, it will change again next month when diet is over.

How are you going to commit to eating a simple, clean easy to follow basic diet, when you couldn't do it before the V?

Good luck by the way.

Dave Van Skike
02-03-2009, 01:10 PM
FWIW, a number of folks who have tried a fast like this have noticed it was like a reset button for bad eating habits, kills your cravings for carbohydrates and creates a good working relationship with protein.

Jacob Rowell
02-03-2009, 03:13 PM
I've introduced the idea to my girlfriend - she's was zoning for awhile, essentially paleo now with ~85% compliance, and needs a change of pace.

I had to promise to drink only shakes while she was. Here comes the coconut milk....

Derek Weaver
02-03-2009, 04:33 PM
Jay,
What Dave said. I've not done the V-Diet myself, but the whole "Healthy Solid Meal" aspect is supposed to be a powerful part of the diet.

By only allowing good food choices for solid foods it helps to break the psychological/hedonistic attachment to crap foods.

Not for everyone though.

Robert McBee
02-03-2009, 10:10 PM
V-Diet
Day 3

Dave said it well, proposing that the VD acts as a reset button. Thats the effect I'm hoping for anyway.

Concerning coming off and going back to reality, I'm planning on following the transition outlined on the VD forums. Basically add back in a whole food meal every few days until you're totally on real food.
The Zone has me at 4 blocks but I'm tweaking that into 6 PRO, 2 Carb, 14 Fat. One of my big problems has been doing that 4-5 times a day, every day without either skipping meals or just grabbing anything in any amount. I've got time to plan over the next 125 protein shakes...

Sleep - Good/7hrs.
NEPA walking a.m.
Diet - good but had a diet coke
Training - Fair/low energy. waited too long between 'meals', new client training ran long while training partner ran late. not blaming diet, probably just distracted

Jay Cohen
02-04-2009, 01:44 AM
Reset idea sounds interesting.
Best of luck, hope it works for you.

Robert McBee
02-04-2009, 09:49 PM
V-diet
Day 4

Recipe:
12oz water, ice
2 scoops vanilla protein
1 teaspoon sugar-free chocolate pudding mix
1/4 cup coconut milk
1 teaspoon espresso powder
1 teaspoon cinnamon

Sleep - Good/~6.5; NEPA walk, cold but felt good
Diet - some cravings but no real hunger issues
Ketones - negative
Training - lifts felt quick, smooth. enjoyed it. wrist feels fine.

Robert McBee
02-05-2009, 09:37 PM
V-diet
Day 5

a.m. NEPA walk
Diet - as rx'd, cravings, some mild self pity
Ketones - negative
Training - CA WOD; felt energetic and speedy

Robert McBee
02-06-2009, 08:27 PM
V-diet
Day 6

Sleep - Good/8hrs. No NEPA walking.
Diet - rx'd
Mood - swell
Ketones - negative
Training - CA WOD Rest Day

Derek Weaver
02-06-2009, 10:12 PM
Robert,
Don't sweat the ketones. It doesn't really matter in terms of fat loss. Also, you could be producing them, but not showing on ketostix. Unless you just like tracking for the fun of it it's not really necessary.

Do your best to get your NEPA in. If I remember right, NEPA is really the most important activity during the dieting period.

Allen Yeh
02-07-2009, 05:07 AM
Do your best to get your NEPA in. If I remember right, NEPA is really the most important activity during the dieting period.

That would be a mistake I discovered.

Derek Weaver
02-07-2009, 12:51 PM
That would be a mistake I discovered.

Too much NEPA or skipping it? If I remember right, as I can't find the page, that Gus guy hit it up daily.

Maybe leanness has something to do with it?

Allen Yeh
02-07-2009, 07:00 PM
Too much NEPA or skipping it? If I remember right, as I can't find the page, that Gus guy hit it up daily.

Maybe leanness has something to do with it?

I started skipping NEPA walks. If I had to do it all over again I definitely wouldn't have done that.

Derek Weaver
02-07-2009, 07:54 PM
That's what I was thinking. It's like active recovery... eeeeeeaaaasy and very hard to overdo, unless you spend your whole day walking. At which point, you wouldn't need to include NEPA.

Robert McBee
02-07-2009, 09:51 PM
V-diet
Day 7

I did skip the NEPA yesterday since it was the CA WOD rest day and again this a.m. since it is MAX DAY!(details on that below) Glad I did now because I feel like I have a minor head cold today. Ear ache, sinus etc. I don't plan on skipping any more though.

Sleep - fair, not feeling 100%, kept waking up all night

Diet - rx'd. Had my one whole food meal of the week after attempting to train. Meat, small sweet potato w/butter + cinnamon, cheese slices...digestive enzymes. So freakin great to eat real food. Starving and ate too fast. Stomach ache. Still awesome.

Training - debated skipping altogether but got started. Felt ok on Sn. 3rd Pull needs waay more aggression/confidence. Dialing back to some Sn. Balance drills next week. Frustrated, hungry, and already tired as I did warmups on C&J so I just called it early. Might try those tomorrow.

So, a weak end to an otherwise rx'd 1st week of VD. Still very productive cycle. Am enjoying focusing on just the O-lifts as some technique is forming along with greatly improved ROM.

Allen Yeh
02-08-2009, 05:17 AM
V-diet
Day 7

I did skip the NEPA yesterday since it was the CA WOD rest day and again this a.m. since it is MAX DAY!(details on that below) Glad I did now because I feel like I have a minor head cold today. Ear ache, sinus etc. I don't plan on skipping any more though.

Sleep - fair, not feeling 100%, kept waking up all night

Diet - rx'd. Had my one whole food meal of the week after attempting to train. Meat, small sweet potato w/butter + cinnamon, cheese slices...digestive enzymes. So freakin great to eat real food. Starving and ate too fast. Stomach ache. Still awesome.

Training - debated skipping altogether but got started. Felt ok on Sn. 3rd Pull needs waay more aggression/confidence. Dialing back to some Sn. Balance drills next week. Frustrated, hungry, and already tired as I did warmups on C&J so I just called it early. Might try those tomorrow.

So, a weak end to an otherwise rx'd 1st week of VD. Still very productive cycle. Am enjoying focusing on just the O-lifts as some technique is forming along with greatly improved ROM.


My wife and I were discussing the food thing when we had our first solid meal which consisted of a steak and baked sweet potato at Longhorn, I definitely got a food high, every bite was like...holy crap!

Good job on the first week, how are the BW numbers and the tape numbers?

Robert McBee
02-08-2009, 09:17 AM
Mornin' Allen,

You're the earlybird over there on the east coast. Having a double espresso and glass of water preparing for NEPA walk here on the 'left' coast.

That reaction to real food is pretty powerful. I was thinking the whole time I was eating that its going to be a long week until that next food meal. I guess thats a regular reality for alot of people in various places so I'm humbled by that. Greater sense of appreciation for the option to do or not do this crazy diet in the first place.

Thanks for the stats reminder. I didn't put up any to start with. Not going as super-scientific as I'd like, just enough to measure some variance. My starting measurement, circumference at umbilicus, was 37"(how in the Guinness did that happen). As of this moment that number is 35 1/2!! Weight at start was 170lbs. Used training partner's scale so need him to bring that over again.

Todd Mccraw
02-09-2009, 05:20 AM
Great thread.

I have been reading this, and just joined recently. I figured that i would give my input on how I set this diet up for me.

Stats:
5'6"
186 lbs
12.4% BF (Just been pinched)

I use this diet as a means of cleaning up any gains I make in the gym. I am trying to develop muscle, and instead of trying to balance my diet to get just enough calories for growth, I make sure to get an ample amount. (From good food choices).

When my body fat starts to get higher than I like, I give this diet a run for 3-4 weeks and do the following:

I use a True Protein mix called "Skips Blend". It is a blend of Whey, Casein, and Egg Whites. It tastes great, and is very filling. I alternate my shakes with Almond Butter and Olive Oil for my fat intake, and I have 1 meal each evening with my last shake that consists of a huge salad..(Mainly for fiber purposes). In the past, I did use a Post workout shake of about 30G of dextrose after each workout, but I eliminated that by trial and error and found that my lifts don't really suffer from low carb and fasted workouts.

I work out with weights 4 days a week for about an hour per session. When I first start up, I do nothing cardio related. After about two weeks in, I will add 2-3 20-30 minute sessions of walking at a slow pace on a treadmill at an incline.

I do have one cheat meal a week out with my family, but I would not really miss it if I didn't include it.

After about 3-4 weeks, I will add another solid meal in which comes right after my workout (I workout in the morning ~ 4:30 am), and it consists of a lean protein source, and a good amount of carbs. Typically something along the lines of Eggs, Egg Whites, and Oatmeal w/Blueberries.

Usually about 6-8 weeks of this is enough to bump me back where I want to be, and then I start slowly ramping my calories back up again.

I know everyone is different, and this is just what works for me.

Leah Turner
02-15-2009, 07:19 PM
Well I just read through all 24 pages (must be crazy) and have two questions. I have also read all (I think) of Shuggart's V-diet articles on Tnation, but didn't find my answers...

1) What weight should one plug into the equation given to figure out calories. Should I use the BW I am at currently, or the BW that I WANT to be at?

2) I am quite honestly freaked out to try the Hot Rox. And reading so many negative reactions on a few different sites didn't help. I am easily affected by caffeine and do not drink pop. I drink mochas for the taste once a week or so. Would straight expresso be a good enough substitute? I'm guessing no for the following reasons:

- My limited understanding is that the caffeine in Hot Rox allows one to function without the carbs, basically tricking your body into thinking you have energy. Most ppl will need a large amount of caffeine.

- I have heard Hot Rox described as giving a person a temporary overactive-thyroid. And, that there is something in the supplement that suppresses ones appetite, hence caffeine alone won't work.

Concerning colds, I have read many people on other sites saying they developed one as well, and not just skinny people as asserted here. I recall Shuggart even stating he developed a cold the second (?) week.

Also, anyone know how the equation to figure out calories was created?

Any input appreciated!

Allen Yeh
02-15-2009, 08:51 PM
Plug in your current BW into the formula, your calories will be plenty low enough if you put in your goal weight I think it would be practically undoable.

RE: Hot Rox,

Some more links
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_bodybuilding_velocity/velocity_diet_hq

The female picked last year to do the V-diet:
http://www.figureathlete.com/readPhysClin.do?id=1884950

RE: Hot-rox

I'm iffy about this because I did find them a bit mood altering but at the same time try not to mess around with things too much. Are you going to try using Se7en? It seems that product is recommended for women doing the V-diet.

Robert McBee
02-18-2009, 10:20 PM
V-Diet
Day 18

I obviously haven't been logging daily on this thing but one day is the same as another. I'm still on it and approaching end of week 3.
Funny about the mention of catching a cold. I've had a chest cold/congestion for about the last 4-5 days. Don't know if its related to the diet because everyone I know is sick right now.

Last rough stats were a 1.5" decrease in waist measurement with total BW holding at 169lbs. Cravings are basically gone. I'm on dietary autopilot. Feeling good actually, probably from the consistent intake of higher protein. Same for water/hydration.

Training tonight felt good.

Leah Turner
02-19-2009, 01:15 PM
Allen - thanks for the reply.

I am not sure about the Se7en either. It seems similiar to the Hot Rox. The one girl that did the diet for Biotest took both Hot Rox and Se7en. There is no way in helle that I could or would take both of those together.

Any women out there who just took the Se7en? Results...?

Robert (or anyone else),

do you take the Hot Rox? how do you feel w/ it? any bad effects?

Robert McBee
02-19-2009, 05:01 PM
Hi Leah,

I do not take the Hot Roxx. Most days I average 2-4 shots of espresso so I'm thinking thats plenty on the stimulants. A few people early in this thread mentioned they didn't have a great experience with them but I'm curious to try them just for purposes of this experiment. I will if you will.

Of course Biotest wants you to feel like you should use every possible supplement but thats what they do, sell supplements. I like making money too so I totally support that but don't think you need much more than the protein. I am using their 'Superfood' stuff and like it and their Metabolic Drive is really tasty...IMO

Allen Yeh
02-21-2009, 07:42 AM
V-diet 3.0?

I saw this in my inbox this morning:

http://www.t-nation.com/programs/vdiet30/vDietProgram000.jsp

Emily Mattes
02-21-2009, 11:19 AM
Anyone notice what the difference is?

I wish they'd stop using that Gus Pacho guy as their poster boy, though. Props to the man for losing the weight, but whatever ridiculous weight-training program he was put on gave him an extremely silly midsection compared to his upper-body. Something tells me his legs are probably twiggy too. :rolleyes:

George Mounce
02-21-2009, 12:34 PM
I like that calculator thing they have now, makes it really easy.

Of course the V-diet costs more for just me in 28 days than what I spend on paleo food choices for 2 people over the course of a month.

It's too bad their workout program is right out of something like Men's Health.

Todd Mccraw
02-23-2009, 04:20 AM
Hi Leah,

I do not take the Hot Roxx. Most days I average 2-4 shots of espresso so I'm thinking thats plenty on the stimulants. A few people early in this thread mentioned they didn't have a great experience with them but I'm curious to try them just for purposes of this experiment. I will if you will.

Of course Biotest wants you to feel like you should use every possible supplement but thats what they do, sell supplements. I like making money too so I totally support that but don't think you need much more than the protein. I am using their 'Superfood' stuff and like it and their Metabolic Drive is really tasty...IMO


I don't use any stimulants except for a few cups of coffee. If I do take something, it's typically near the very end of my diet when things start to slow down for me. Otherwise, I try to manipulate my calories and cardio to keep the progress going. If I stall out, then I will use something.