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Rick Deckart
02-28-2007, 12:59 AM
As always very good advice. I have to admit I am one of the guys who asked for advice (twice if I remember correctly)...

Regards,

Peter

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1472595

Allen Yeh
02-28-2007, 05:54 AM
Great article, I liked the differention he used for sorta max, max max and max max max. That article made me realize something, I know my max max for the big 3 but only sorta max for the Olympic lifts. Hm

The big 21 looks really cool too and for a moment I was thinking "this is what I'll do next!" Then I remembered how my shoulder is bothering me with overhead barbell pressing movements.

Great article though.

Ron Nelson
02-28-2007, 08:43 AM
I always enjoy Dan's essay's/articles. I, too, asked for advice once and got an answer that was short and to the point. It just shows you don't need to say a lot to say a lot. Experience will teach you that.

Mike ODonnell
02-28-2007, 09:27 AM
It just shows you don't need to say a lot to say a lot.

Just like the Zen monks...the best answer is the one you go away to think about...and then have your "Ah-ha" realization on what is the true answer...the only answers that matter or make a difference are the ones we realize for ourselves...as they are life altering ones....a good teacher knows how to get us there.

I like the 21 program...simplistic yet effective. Kind of reminds me of the SS program...except more 1s and increments...the 2 probably compliment each other very well as alternating cycles. Also reminds me of a Poliquin article on CNS ramping up to get a better Max lift.

Derek Simonds
02-28-2007, 10:53 AM
Based on Dan's description of maxes I have only ever determined my sorta max for the majority of lifts and my max for a couple.

I have definitely suffered from the Cinderella Syndrome on programming in the past. I think that is why I have enjoyed Crossfit so much. The continued variety keeps me from getting to the "God I have 3 workouts left of this and I hate it" stage.

The other side of the coin is I must, have to and there is no way around it need to determine what my fitness goals are, set them on paper and get them accomplished. In fact my first goal is echoed by this quote from Dan

"If you can't deadlift double bodyweight, you need to by the end of the six months"

So publicly let me declare my first goal. I will be able to deadlift double my bodyweight in 6 weeks.

Dave Wilson
02-28-2007, 11:06 AM
Great artictle, as usual he break's thing's down to their simplest term's.

I have previously determined my max,max, for the Fsquat, Back squat,Dead lift and OH press, I am in the process of figuring out my max,max,max for the Oly's.

The "big 21" Look's like fun, Has anyone tryed it?
I would love to know what kind of net result's.

Danny John
02-28-2007, 11:30 AM
I have a little Excel Document for it...can I put it here?

Derek Simonds
02-28-2007, 11:41 AM
I love excel documents! I cant wait to see it.

Greg Everett
02-28-2007, 11:57 AM
dan - don't think you can attach excel. if you email it to me, i'll upload it and link to it.

Jamila Bey
02-28-2007, 01:05 PM
Dan John is dreamy!

The big 21 is awesome. It's what I've been using to get my snatch in shape. Brutally beautifully brilliant. (Say that 3X as fast as you can!)

kevin mckay
02-28-2007, 02:10 PM
you can zip it and post that

Dave Wilson
02-28-2007, 02:21 PM
I can't wait!

Dave Van Skike
02-28-2007, 03:25 PM
[QUOTE=Derek Simonds;5611]

"If you can't deadlift double bodyweight, you need to by the end of the six months" QUOTE]


Yeah, don't get comfortable. Once I got Double BW I ran across Shafley pronouncing....

"500 in the dead? It's f***ing easy to get to. F****G EASY. If you are a man, and you are over 180-200 lbs and you can't reach a 500# deadlift, then either you are stupid, a profound candyass, or you just haven't tried. "

Ouch. Currently working my way up from a candyass deadlift to 500.

Mike ODonnell
02-28-2007, 05:29 PM
[QUOTE=Dave Van Skike;5637]"500 in the dead? It's f***ing easy to get to. F****G EASY. If you are a man, and you are over 180-200 lbs and you can't reach a 500# deadlift, then either you are stupid, a profound candyass, or you just haven't tried. "

Um.....so I mine as well go burn my degree...give up my lunch money...put on a dress and go cry in the corner now....

Ron Nelson
02-28-2007, 05:52 PM
[QUOTE=Dave Van Skike;5637]"500 in the dead? It's f***ing easy to get to. F****G EASY. If you are a man, and you are over 180-200 lbs and you can't reach a 500# deadlift, then either you are stupid, a profound candyass, or you just haven't tried. "

Um.....so I mine as well go burn my degree...give up my lunch money...put on a dress and go cry in the corner now....

Easy, lady. You'll smear your make-up.


. . .don't ask about my DL.

Ron Nelson
02-28-2007, 05:54 PM
Dan John is dreamy!

The big 21 is awesome. It's what I've been using to get my snatch in shape. Brutally beautifully brilliant. (Say that 3X as fast as you can!)

Do you read these before you post them? You'd make a great "set up woman" for a comedian. And since your DL is way more than mine, I mean that in the nicest way possible.



. . .I think Dan's dreamy, too.

Mike ODonnell
02-28-2007, 05:57 PM
. . .I think Dan's dreamy, too.

Here Ron....looks like you need the dress more than I....is that a cosmo you are drinking too??

Steve Shafley
02-28-2007, 06:54 PM
I'm sorry to have hurt your feelings.

For further hurt feelings, look up the lifts by Kara Bohigan in powerlifting...the APF IIRC.

Do not look up the lifts by Becca Swanson, or even Jill Mills

I should be deadlifting over 6. I'm not.

First time I DLed over 500 lbs I was ~200 lbs, so that's where I pull that, and I am not particularly strong, though I make up for that in obnoxiousness.

Derek Simonds
02-28-2007, 06:56 PM
Damn It Dave! Why did you have to go and throw a Super Steve quote into the mix. :D

Well at least now I have stair step goals to work on. I suppose I was being awfully short minded just thinking that I would accomplish the double BW in the next 6 weeks.

The deadlift is one of the lifts that I have a sorta max to a max. During the last Crossfit total I lifted 305 and that was 3 days after doing the 3 bars of death with BW SGBDL's. I look forward to working towards both of those goals.

Steve Shafley
02-28-2007, 07:08 PM
Stuff I say always comes back to bite me in the ass.

The deadlift, more than any other lift, seems to mock you as it sits on the floor. We had a decent discussion about form in the video thread.

It's very much a mental thing, though, with the deadlift, rather than a physical thing. I expect that there are 2-3 things that will help the deadlift in a very short period.

1. Grip. Don't think so? Throw on some straps and see how much more you can deadlift when you don't have to worry about holding onto it so much. So you train your grip specifically for the deadlift. You don't have the train the mixed grip, only the double overhand. Or even learn to hook it.

-hangs from a chin bar
-weighted hangs from a chin bar
-rack pulls or DL lockouts (mixed grip)
-timed DL holds, double overhand
-thick bar pulling

2. Belt. Deep down ingrained in most of us is a profound fear of messing the lower back up. The belt helps you overcome that fear, and will also stabilize a weak core. After that, try some of these.

-heavy suitcase deadlifts or sidebends
-heavy weighted abdominal work
-rack crunches (of overall limited use, but it can beef up the core)
-rack pulls (not maximal, just a bit over your regular DL, use no belt)

Billy_Brummel
02-28-2007, 08:26 PM
Dan John is dreamy!

The big 21 is awesome. It's what I've been using to get my snatch in shape. Brutally beautifully brilliant. (Say that 3X as fast as you can!)

Wow.

Jamila Bey
02-28-2007, 09:21 PM
I have been known to do clean yet amazingly offensive (but only to idiot sensitive weenies) stand-up routines on a stage. With a mike. And people in seats...

I saw a tape of myself and got all upset due to how damned fat I looked on it, so that's why I started getting all serious with my working out. Maybe I should go back to the stage...

Allison Barns
02-28-2007, 09:45 PM
Do you read these before you post them? You'd make a great "set up woman" for a comedian. And since your DL is way more than mine, I mean that in the nicest way possible.



. . .I think Dan's dreamy, too.

Hmmm ...Ron, methinks you have a dirty mind! ;)

Ron Nelson
02-28-2007, 10:26 PM
My wife says I'm a pervert. As I say, ". . .and that's bad because????"

Jamila,

I'd laugh with you. I'm no weenie. . I'm not, I'm not, I'm not!

MOD,

Yes, that's a Cosmo; a verry strong Cosmo. No cherry.

Allen Yeh
03-01-2007, 03:33 AM
Here Ron....looks like you need the dress more than I....is that a cosmo you are drinking too??

Looks like an apple-tini to me.

Allen Yeh
03-01-2007, 03:40 AM
[QUOTE=Derek Simonds;5611]

"If you can't deadlift double bodyweight, you need to by the end of the six months" QUOTE]


Yeah, don't get comfortable. Once I got Double BW I ran across Shafley pronouncing....

"500 in the dead? It's f***ing easy to get to. F****G EASY. If you are a man, and you are over 180-200 lbs and you can't reach a 500# deadlift, then either you are stupid, a profound candyass, or you just haven't tried. "

Ouch. Currently working my way up from a candyass deadlift to 500.

Ok so now I either have to add 115 pounds to me max max on the DL or lose 11 pounds and get under 180! Sheesh. I do know what you mean though Dave, I was all proud of getting 2xBW a few months ago and then last month I ran cross Steve saying that over at P+B. Talk about ego crusher!

To be honest though, 500 seems right now to be impossible . The last time I dl'ed close to my max max I felt like I was drained for days after and pretty much couldn't lift anything. Maybe I'll make it my goal for the end of this year. Hm.

Dave Van Skike
03-01-2007, 06:14 PM
I hear ya. I trained DL for about two months and was all smug with the double BW, then I ran across what the lightweights at your local raw powerlifting meet were pulling. Ummmm.... yea. Best be getting to it...for real this time.

Steve is an ego crusher, but it's also fair comment. 500 sounds big for a little guy but it's doable...Hell, even Pavel pulls 500.

Mike ODonnell
03-01-2007, 07:19 PM
I trained DL for about two months and was all smug with the double BW, then I ran across what the lightweights at your local raw powerlifting meet were pulling.

Hence why I workout at Curves...why would I want to go anywhere else and deflate my ego like that??

Bill Ripley
03-02-2007, 04:34 AM
Did DJ's spreadsheet get posted?

Steve Liberati
03-02-2007, 05:46 AM
I wonder if bodyfat has anything to do with dl'ing 500 lbs. Personally, I remember lifting a lot more weight when my bodyfat was in the double digits (same bodyweight) as opposed to now, with a low percentage of bf.

Steve, does your statement apply to all, the guy at 5%, as well as the guy at 12%? From what I experienced, the difference in bodyfat makes a big difference in strength and numbers. Would most agree?

Steve Shafley
03-02-2007, 10:36 AM
In actuality, powerlifters who have lost weight have tended to notice improvements in their deadlifts because their bellies no longer got into the way, and they could assume a better starting position.

If you are concerned with keeping body fat low, and 5% is really, really low, unless you are predispositioned to being that lean anyway, chances are you are going to be in a calorie deficit, and thus making it harder to maintain or even increase strength.

There does seem to be an optimal level of bodyfat for strength and muscle gains, and that's probably between 8-12%. Getting really fat improves your leverage somehow, intramuscularly, which is why you see the strongest humans on the planet around 20% or higher (reference...see the SHW OLs or PLs). Note I am talking about the strongest, period, not the strongest, relative to bodyweight.

You know, I like to run off at the mouth, there's no denying that. That 500# DL comment was one of those moments. But, chances are that if you don't think you can get to a 500# deadlift, you're not going to do so. If this is a concern of yours, my suggestion is to seek out a local group of powerlifters to lift with and to loosen up on the diet a bit to put yourself in a state of positive energy balance.

It all depends...you could state "If you are over 20% bodyfat, then you are a fat bastard with no dietary discipline" and POW! you'd have me on the ropes.

Dave Van Skike
03-02-2007, 12:54 PM
[QUOTE=Steve Shafley;5795]
You know, I like to run off at the mouth, there's no denying that. That 500# DL comment was one of those moments. But, chances are that if you don't think you can get to a 500# deadlift, you're not going to do so. If this is a concern of yours, my suggestion is to seek out a local group of powerlifters to lift with and to loosen up on the diet a bit to put yourself in a state of positive energy balance.
QUOTE]

Won't take anything away from your prodigous mouth but I have heard the 500 number in a lot of places. For a legit strongish guy,the 500 pound benchmark (or thereabouts) is reasonable. I have no question that I will get there....slowly. The 405 front squat.....a bit iffy.

I ran across a discussion that you may have been in that 3(00),4(00),5(00),is a legit and workable goal for the 3 power lifts. These number are in line with the ranges that Rippatoe has in the back of Practical Programming for an advanced (competitive) but not elite (winner) male lifter in the 198 class.

Goals are good, Standards are good. I'm a hell of a lot better off from the tsruggle of reaching for 500 than from being smug at 405.

Steve Liberati
03-02-2007, 08:11 PM
You know, I like to run off at the mouth, there's no denying that. That 500# DL comment was one of those moments. But, chances are that if you don't think you can get to a 500# deadlift, you're not going to do so. If this is a concern of yours, my suggestion is to seek out a local group of powerlifters to lift with and to loosen up on the diet a bit to put yourself in a state of positive energy balance.

Thanks Steve for the explanation above....however not a concern of mine at all. My last PR on the "The CrossFit Total" was 435lbs. My current bodyweight is ~187lbs. Hoping to break the 500 mark in the next few months or so. I agree with what you said about our minds being our biggest enemy in realizing strength gains. Weightlifting, like most sports are largely mental (technique, food, genes, lifestyle - all playing a huge role as well).

If not for nothing, your statement certainly motivated myself to join the 500 DL club (however, realize this was not your intention). Like Dave said below, goals and standards are good. Reaching them is even better though:)

JW Luckett
03-03-2007, 12:15 AM
Here is an Excel I made for the Big 21. If this works and you can open it, enter your target weight for each lift in the yellow box. Most of the formulas work by subtracting from the target weight. Also, the whole thing assumes gradations of 2.5kgs, not 5lbs. I think that might be pretty important.

If this attachment business doesn't work but you would still like a copy, e-mail:

jwluckettiii <AT> yahoo.co.jp.

Careful there. That's Japan's yahoo, not DOT COM.

And finally, if anyone notices any errors in the thing, please let me know.

OK, here we go...

Allen Yeh
03-05-2007, 05:45 AM
Thanks JW it seems to open fine for me.