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Andrew Wilson
11-24-2010, 09:20 AM
http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/10_03_metab_cond.pdf not safe

How the hell did this guy get away with this and make millions of dollars, its so mind blowing. This has to be quite possibly, the greatest snake oil sell of all time, its absolutely incredible.


http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9906/crossfit.png

Steve Shafley
11-26-2010, 08:14 PM
By recruiting those who looked damn good doing it.
By faking it until he made it.
By ruthlessly attacking and minimizing, to the Crossfit community, any naysayers.

The jokes on everyone else, really, because millions more are being made.

Andrew Wilson
11-26-2010, 10:30 PM
By recruiting those who looked damn good doing it.
By faking it until he made it.
By ruthlessly attacking and minimizing, to the Crossfit community, any naysayers.

The jokes on everyone else, really, because millions more are being made.

Spot on!
It blows my mind that these people keep saying theyre evidence based, keep trying to become the official regime of the military, and keep expanding their influence, yet there is not a single legitimate and objective case study performed on this stuff, nor against a control, or any traditional program. Not even a single HQ member as any accreditations or university degrees in any field: ex phys, ex science, kinies, sport sci, none. There "journal" is plagued with inaccurate information.

Steve Shafley
11-27-2010, 07:41 AM
Nothing to be done about it. In the US there's no requirement for any kind of fitness movement to actually work.

Apparently the HQ kids and Lauren have adequately contained Gregg's destructive tendencies by only trotting him out for certs and other big events.

The association with Reebok may end up killing Crossfit or eventually marginalizing it. Or, it may make "The Sport of Crossfit" a big dollar reality. Fit, athletic bodies wearing next to nothing is exciting to watch, I guess, if you've got enough cameras and on the fly editing capability. Glassman was right when he said "people will die for points"...that is, perhaps, the biggest issue boiled down to it's purest form.

Like any other sport, when it spits out a broken athlete at the end of the cycle, nobody will care. Just look at the NFL and how they keep attempting to sweep the concussion issue under the rug.

Kevin Shaughnessy
11-27-2010, 08:40 AM
Forgive my ignorance, but what is so fallacious about the excerpt you posted?

Derek Weaver
11-27-2010, 09:35 AM
Forgive my ignorance, but what is so fallacious about the excerpt you posted?

All of it.

Steven Low
11-27-2010, 09:36 AM
anaerobic and aerobic capacities are absolutely different systems

you can work some dually with exercise (duhh...) but each one does nto confer benefits to the other

Arien Malec
11-27-2010, 10:16 AM
Forgive my ignorance, but what is so fallacious about the excerpt you posted?

It's mostly half-truth

1) The half-truth that cardiovascular conditioning can be obtained through power-biased work. The fallacy is the general assumption that there is a hard and fast dividing line between aerobic and anaerobic (glycolitic and ATP) systems, particularly for the kind of work @F does.
2) The half-truth that calculating VO2 max per kg biases against muscle mass. The implication that the only difference between a Tour de France athlete and an @F aficionado is muscle mass is silly. There are some athletes (rowers) who have enormous VO2 capacity on an absolute basis, but measure poorer per kg.

Arien Malec
11-27-2010, 10:21 AM
And the absurdity is the implication that @Fers are better than top flight marathoners or Tour de France athletes. With respect to what? I may prefer to perform certain kinds of activities, but see no need to sneer at athletes who prefer different kinds of activities.

Garrett Smith
11-27-2010, 11:00 AM
Kevin,
The first bullet point is ludicrous.

Andrew Wilson
11-27-2010, 11:52 AM
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2062/glassp.png

.............

Arien Malec
11-27-2010, 04:05 PM
Compare:

http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Athletic/Flexibility1.PDF

The good stuff is past the section on flexibility.

Dan John had Glassman nailed....

Kevin Perry
11-27-2010, 05:27 PM
And the absurdity is the implication that @Fers are better than top flight marathoners or Tour de France athletes. With respect to what? I may prefer to perform certain kinds of activities, but see no need to sneer at athletes who prefer different kinds of activities.

And that's what it's turned into, a mentality that @F is superior to all other endeavors especially gasp specialization in a sport.

Andrew Wilson
11-27-2010, 07:18 PM
And that's what it's turned into, a mentality that @F is superior to all other endeavors especially gasp specialization in a sport.

Them arguing Games winner is fitter than Bryan Clay in the comments: http://games2010.crossfit.com/blog/2010/07/profile-champion-male-competitor-graham-holmberg,698/

Bryan Clay weighs 185, back squats 272kg (598), benches 161kg (354), power cleans 152kg (332), has a standing vertical jump of 44in, runs a 10.35 100m dash, 4:38mile............ and he doesn't do "metcons"

Andrew Wilson
11-27-2010, 07:23 PM
Then supposedly they had the guy set a world record in a box jump... whats going to be their argument against Stefan Holm jumping? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZ3ZcorTF0

Kevin Perry
11-27-2010, 09:03 PM
Bryan Clay is an amazing athlete. Probably the best at doing less than 5 minutes of work at a time in the world, while mostly running and throwing things.

Here at Crossfit we like to use broad time and modal domains and under that definition, Graham Holmberg is, actually

I don't think I need to say anything else, the mentality speaks for itself.

Brian DeGennaro
11-27-2010, 09:39 PM
Jared Fleming has a bigger box jump at the same height and he's an insect.

The CrossFit concept has merit but the stopwatch and bull that they pull out of their asses just ruins it all.

Garrett Smith
11-28-2010, 10:48 AM
Compare:

http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Athletic/Flexibility1.PDF

The good stuff is past the section on flexibility.

Dan John had Glassman nailed....

That is a GREAT article.

Arien Malec
11-28-2010, 03:30 PM
Arthur Jones was certainly a smart guy.

He was the Glassman of his time, in his coupling Nautilus to the training methods he developed as the cure for all, and the HIT jedis were the @F echo chamber, but unlike Glassman, he actually did the research, and applied what he learned. Some stuff from the article that Glassman would never say:

Such training requires close and informed supervision… close supervision to assure that the pace is fast enough, and informed (or at least experienced) supervision to assure that the pace is not too fast. The workout absolutely must not be permitted to degenerate into a race against the clock… each and every exercise must be performed properly

This type of training would probably be of little or no value for a weight lifter, or a shot putter… but it is the best type of training by far for a football player, a basketball player, a wrestler, a soccer player, a swimmer or a person involved in any other activity requiring both strength and cardiovascular endurance.

Gant Grimes
11-30-2010, 09:10 AM
Spot on!
It blows my mind that these people keep saying theyre evidence based, keep trying to become the official regime of the military, and keep expanding their influence, yet there is not a single legitimate and objective case study performed on this stuff, nor against a control, or any traditional program. Not even a single HQ member as any accreditations or university degrees in any field: ex phys, ex science, kinies, sport sci, none. There "journal" is plagued with inaccurate and failing information. Its a pure con. Someone should do something about this.

That's the genius of it. Look how many affiliate owner bios start with "I was never athletic growing up/picked last for dodge ball/sucked at sports/etc." Now look at HQ. Not a single person running the thing with any credentials, competitive history, or any visual evidence that they even train at all. That is how you market to the masses because the masses are average and uncredentialed.

You don't make money by marketing to the elite. Instead, you market a new definition for elite...hell, a new definition for everything. Then you invent a competition and challenge everyone else in the world to prove you wrong. It doesn't matter to your followers that nobody else cares to prove you wrong; it only matters that nobody else shows up.

It's genius.

Them arguing Games winner is fitter than Bryan Clay in the comments: http://games2010.crossfit.com/blog/2010/07/profile-champion-male-competitor-graham-holmberg,698/

Bryan Clay weighs 185, back squats 272kg (598), benches 161kg (354), power cleans 152kg (332), has a standing vertical jump of 44in, runs a 10.35 100m dash, 4:38mile............ and he doesn't do "metcons"

The amount of stupidity in that string of comments is staggering. I can't believe I share a planet with some of those people.

Andrew Wilson
11-30-2010, 09:57 AM
That's the genius of it. Look how many affiliate owner bios start with "I was never athletic growing up/picked last for dodge ball/sucked at sports/etc." Now look at HQ. Not a single person running the thing with any credentials, competitive history, or any visual evidence that they even train at all. That is how you market to the masses because the masses are average and uncredentialed.

You don't make money by marketing to the elite. Instead, you market a new definition for elite...hell, a new definition for everything. Then you invent a competition and challenge everyone else in the world to prove you wrong. It doesn't matter to your followers that nobody else cares to prove you wrong; it only matters that nobody else shows up.

It's genius.



The amount of stupidity in that string of comments is staggering. I can't believe I share a planet with some of those people.

hahahahaha!

Brian DeGennaro
11-30-2010, 10:20 AM
And this is why we love Gant.

Edit: and I just reread in that games post that someone said Speal could do a 4:38 1500m ... without training it. HAH. I doubt it, especially because his profile states he hasn't run below 60sec for a 400. Speal is a respectable athlete but people think he's some sort of godlike athlete.

Jarod Barker
11-30-2010, 11:42 AM
And this is why we love Gant.

Edit: and I just reread in that games post that someone said Speal could do a 4:38 1500m ... without training it. HAH. I doubt it, especially because his profile states he hasn't run below 60sec for a 400. Speal is a respectable athlete but people think he's some sort of godlike athlete.

Speal is pretty BA. I'm always impressed with his performance, especially for a smaller guy, he stays right in there with the big guys even at heavier weights. But... yeah, people seem to think he's some supreme athlete. He's good, don't get me wrong, a much better athlete than the majority of people, but even look at someone like Bryan Clay (a small decathlete), he's 5'11" and 180 lbs. When it comes to sports and athletics, you just can't replace genetics. I wish I was begat by larger parents, if I was 6'8" and 320 lbs. Speal is very impressive, but he has limitations just like everyone else. Thing is, I've never heard Speal claim to be elite or anything, but yet, people all over the internet give him super hero status.

As for the CF article.... I really like CF actually, I think it's fun. Keyword being "fun." I have no shame admitting that I have training ADD, I get bored with routine and just following the steady grind of lifting programs. When I did CF, I never thought it was going make me "elite." (they really should drop that from the title) It's just something fun to do, no different than P90X. P90X isn't going to make you the next Gold Medalist. It's just a fun way to get in shape, burn off some extra pounds.

That being said, most of what CF puts out is just marketing to encourage people to do CF. "This is why CF is better than your current program......" No different than Zumba touting that it burns 1000 calories an hour, or Tae Bo claiming it can make you faster and stronger than lifting weights. Heck, look at the shake weight. It's all marketing. Supplement companies do it too. Muscletech will make you taller, stronger, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, and.... as an added bonus it will make that certain male body part larger. Call now to get your free sample!

So, with the CF article, and most of their articles, it's just marketing CF to the masses. They've just chosen to put them out in PDF format for free instead of running infomercials. Which to be fair is really smart. People might scoff at an infomercial, but for some reason people still believe everything they read, especially if it comes in PDF format.

Ps. I'm personally jealous and angry that I didn't think of it first. I could be a millionaire. I mean, just repackage old training programs to the masses and add a stopwatch so now it's a game. I can't wait till people forget about Wendler 531, so I can start touting Cilli 531. Maybe I should start now with a Chadgarian weightlifting program.

Patrick Donnelly
11-30-2010, 01:19 PM
The amount of stupidity in that string of comments is staggering. I can't believe I share a planet with some of those people.

Don't worry - it's only until the spaceship comes.

Peter Dell'Orto
12-01-2010, 06:05 AM
As for the CF article.... I really like CF actually, I think it's fun. Keyword being "fun."

I had a lot of fun trying Crossfit too. It taught me a lot about conditioning, appropriate levels of volume, the value of a time-limited workout, and so on.

It indirectly taught me about the importance of technique and specificity of training, too - I learned that while CF was nice, an integrated program developed around my sport was superior for me.

I basically got off that ride, though, when I realized I needed very specific work that CF just didn't provide, no matter how "strength biased" or "power biased" you made it. Well, that and when I realized that what counted as a "good rep" was totally flexible - if you managed to set a low enough time and the HQ folks approved of you, all the reps were good. Oh, and when they put out that diet article that had a guy with a big gut explaining to me that leaning out and getting maximum physical performance from diet was easy . . . but apparently it wasn't so easy that he could fit it into his schedule.

Still, I don't regret giving it a go - thanks to CF I found out a lot of stuff, had some fun, discovered Performance Menu, and learned what worked for me and what didn't.

Maybe I should start now with a Chadgarian weightlifting program.

I'm thinking of using a more Chadgarian approach for my next pre-fight cycle. :)

Andrew Wilson
12-01-2010, 10:46 AM
CrossFit Journal #11:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1811/cfmbcl.png
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/694/cfcl.png

Apparently, the medicine ball clean reinforces the deadlift and squat, and introduces the metabolic potential of the clean. . . .

It seems the high rep clean and jerk can substantially increase coordination, balance, and accuracy.

And apparently, not performing high rep clean and jerk it is a short coming that cannot be logically explained. . . . .

Andrew Wilson
12-01-2010, 11:01 AM
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6544/cjcf.png

. . . . .

Shane Skowron
12-01-2010, 02:59 PM
CrossFit Journal #11:
and introduces the metabolic potential of the clean. . . .


What is metabolic potential??? Is that even a concept?

Kelly White
12-01-2010, 03:16 PM
Bryan Clay weighs 185, back squats 272kg (598), benches 161kg (354), power cleans 152kg (332), has a standing vertical jump of 44in, runs a 10.35 100m dash, 4:38mile............ and he doesn't do "metcons"

Yeah......but how would he hold up in a functional glute ham situp/deadlift race for time?

Andrew Wilson
12-01-2010, 03:29 PM
What is metabolic potential??? Is that even a concept?
hahahaha

Derek Weaver
12-01-2010, 03:49 PM
Yeah......but how would he hold up in a functional glute ham situp/deadlift race for time?

Rhabdo, Pukie.....

What's the point in competing internationally when you can go to Aromas, CA and have people pay to watch you vomit after a "wicked chipper" workout of light deadlifts, hammering fence posts, swinging a KB above your head, (because after all, who needs healthy shoulders?), spinning around on a whiffle ball bat, and drinking your own sweat before you pee yourself on camera so it can be posted on the internet?

Once you can offer what sounds like an intelligent answer, at least until someone listens to the actual words, in favor of the second option, then you'll have been conditioned psychologically so that you can begin your physical conditioning.

Andrew Wilson
12-01-2010, 04:40 PM
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4168/50879414.png
Its a good thing they got a picture of them circle cleaning their balls, and not circle jerking their balls.

Derek Weaver
12-01-2010, 05:18 PM
What kind of faces would they be making then?

Peter Dell'Orto
12-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Its a good thing they got a picture of them circle cleaning their balls, and not circle jerking their balls.

Ah, I guess it's true, then. The internet is for porn.


Seriously weird porn, though . . .

Jarod Barker
12-01-2010, 07:18 PM
I'm thinking of using a more Chadgarian approach for my next pre-fight cycle. :)

When you win your next fight just be sure to give me credit for it. :D

The Chadgarian program is a revolutionary system, you lift heavy twice a day, squatting everyday you workout and alternating clean and jerks with snatches. Speaking of which I also invented the clean and jerk and the snatch.

It will probably make you tired as hell, but you can tell just how elite you are because no one else will be following the program but you.

Geoffrey Thompson
12-01-2010, 09:31 PM
225 for 15 reps resting only overhead, in the rack, or in the hang in a decent time does sound pretty intense, and that's the seductive thing about CrossFit: it sounds vaguely logical and it sounds like they're suggesting awesome stuff. Saying something awesome, though, is really cheap to do. All you have to do is string some words together and, bam, you've said something awesome. How many of the people at the CrossFit Games could do that feat? Probably could be counted on one hand.

Brian DeGennaro
12-02-2010, 06:21 AM
Orlando or Lipson, but that might be giving anyone too much credit. They had an Olympic lifter with a 400lb CJ try it, he got like 12 if I recall?

Matt Wichlinski
12-02-2010, 07:01 AM
Orlando or Lipson, but that might be giving anyone too much credit. They had an Olympic lifter with a 400lb CJ try it, he got like 12 if I recall?

that was Max McDormott? from @FFootball I believe. there is a huge difference between hard and effective. I too have fallen victim to the @F protocol for a while in the past, as fun and exciting as it was brief, all I really gained was diminished strength and skill, and probably a butt ton of anxiety

Peter Dell'Orto
12-02-2010, 07:43 AM
The Chadgarian program is a revolutionary system, you lift heavy twice a day, squatting everyday you workout and alternating clean and jerks with snatches. Speaking of which I also invented the clean and jerk and the snatch.

You need to couch that more in technical terms. Maybe

"Chadgarian programming is revolutionary. It's based on the metabolic leveraging of daily heavy squats. Combined with alternated clean and jerks and snatches you achieve a level of elite fitness thanks to the synergistic effect of the two lifts on your aerobic-anaerobic work capacity development."

That's got Chadgarian Level I Cert written all over it. ;)

It will probably make you tired as hell, but you can tell just how elite you are because no one else will be following the program but you.

Hey, you can be elite by beating everybody, or be elite by just narrowing down the field. Either way.

Geoffrey Thompson
12-02-2010, 07:57 AM
Orlando or Lipson, but that might be giving anyone too much credit. They had an Olympic lifter with a 400lb CJ try it, he got like 12 if I recall?

Those two were on my mind - I've seen some of Orlando's strongman videos. I really don't know anything at all about anybody else associated with CrossFit, except that, as a result of this thread, I looked at the stats of some random competitors and confirmed that they would have no shot at all of making it.

Gant Grimes
12-02-2010, 09:04 AM
Stupid ad copy aside, the 15-12-9 no-drop power clean workout is damn solid. It mimics the demands of stop and go grappling sports (like judo) very well (especially for 90kg and 100kg competitors). Moderate-rep Olympic lifts always creep into my program when I'm prepping for a judo tourney. You cannot replace these with DB, KB, or sandbag work.

And no, moderate to high-rep Olympic lifts will not screw up your ME Oly work.

That's the shame of CF. They stumbled--probably drunkenly--over several good protocols (21-15-9 and 15-12-9 are wonderful) and ruined them with hucksterism and hyperbole.

Andrew Wilson
12-02-2010, 09:12 AM
15RM is roughly 70% of 1RM
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1710/40308333.png
Dave Lipson weighs 96kg with a max BS of 250kg and max DL 288.6kg
His max snatch is 90kg (not bodyweight)
His max CJ is 105kg
70%=63kg (138)
70%=73kg (161)

= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z0QJYozar0 technique....

Which brings me back to:
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/694/cfcl.png

and http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7217/13274091.png switching "deadlift" to "snatch"

High rep snatch & CJ = ............... proven effective

I'm not sure what Rob's CJ SN is, guessing 140kg

Andrew Wilson
12-02-2010, 09:29 AM
But then again, my sarcasm could be wrong, it's an empirically and experientially tested protocol, evidence based and scientifically proven effective. I must search for this information and evidence to understand the details of this potential ground breaking development in advancing human performance:


http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2083/noevf.png




....... :(

Justin Arnold
12-02-2010, 09:45 AM
The best part about crossfit is the people constantly picking it apart.

The other day some jackhole claimed that CF "makes firefighters use like one quarter less air". My response? "less air than what?" Him: "what do you mean?"

Geoffrey Thompson
12-02-2010, 11:14 AM
Stupid ad copy aside, the 15-12-9 no-drop power clean workout is damn solid. It mimics the demands of stop and go grappling sports (like judo) very well (especially for 90kg and 100kg competitors). Moderate-rep Olympic lifts always creep into my program when I'm prepping for a judo tourney. You cannot replace these with DB, KB, or sandbag work.

And no, moderate to high-rep Olympic lifts will not screw up your ME Oly work.

That's the shame of CF. They stumbled--probably drunkenly--over several good protocols (21-15-9 and 15-12-9 are wonderful) and ruined them with hucksterism and hyperbole.

So what kind of weights are you throwing around in those 15-12-9 power clean workouts? Does it end up being in the 60kg range, or is it more in the 80kg range?

Shane Skowron
12-02-2010, 11:58 AM
You need to couch that more in technical terms. Maybe

"Chadgarian programming is revolutionary. It's based on the metabolic leveraging of daily heavy squats. Combined with alternated clean and jerks and snatches you achieve a level of elite fitness thanks to the synergistic effect of the two lifts on your aerobic-anaerobic work capacity development."



You need to insert words like "intuit", "anathema", and "arboreal" in places that don't quite make sense.

Next, you need to pick one person from the intended audience of your message and personally attack their credentials or their grammar.

Finally, make one or two off-the-wall statements, just for kicks. For example, compare your workouts to birthday parties and physics classes.

Garrett Smith
12-02-2010, 02:16 PM
I'm personally still waiting for someone in CF to handstand-walk an entire football field or do the 3-minute L-sit or hollow rock.

Joe Hart
12-02-2010, 03:20 PM
Cmon now. Lets stop tossing around big words and potificating. Its birthday party not physics...;)

Brian DeGennaro
12-02-2010, 07:50 PM
Andrew, to defend a friend, he was battling a badly injured wrist at that competition. He can snatch ~105 and I wish I had some time over the summer to work with him a bit and make him realize that he should be snatching his 150kg OHS.

Rob I don't think has snatched more than 105 in training, but it would not surprise me with his strength that he could snatch 120.

Andrew Wilson
12-02-2010, 07:56 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Geoffrey Thompson
12-02-2010, 08:48 PM
That makes sense, he has great potential in olympic lifting & I keep seeing him in those videos and just keep thinking "why is this guy stuck in this CrossFit", he could very well CJ 170 with those BS & DL numbers if he went after. If he spent a good 6 weeks with a great OL coach he could be snatch 130-140 no prob. I feel so bad for these crossfit people, so much potential being misguided
IIRC, his background is as a LW strongman. It's probably better to be toward the top of CF right now than to be an okay strongman or okay oly guy.

Brian DeGennaro
12-02-2010, 09:29 PM
He pitched for the Brooklyn Dodgers prior.

I'm positive Dave could snatch 150 and CJ 180 if he brought up his mobility and worked the lifts. I wish so badly he and I had a chance to work on it, because I more than anyone, wanted to see him progress onto superb lifts.

Joe Birch
12-04-2010, 02:19 AM
As much as I agree with everything that's been said and hate all the bullshit that surrounds the marketing of crossfit, you can't deny that crossfit has manged to convince a lot of people to actually exercise with intensity which wouldn't have previously been doing so.

Watching half the people in my commercial gym doing a million isolations or sitting on the crosstrainer for an hour makes me physically ill and I'd much rather see people doing a crossfit style workout.... the lesser of two evils :) So as much as they are lying about "elite" training systems, at the end of the day most people that start doing it have no intention of being elite they just want to look better, so at least they arn't a complete waste of space cluttering up a globo gym.

Wayne Riddle
12-04-2010, 03:59 AM
As much as I agree with everything that's been said and hate all the bullshit that surrounds the marketing of crossfit, you can't deny that crossfit has manged to convince a lot of people to actually exercise with intensity which wouldn't have previously been doing so.

Agree, and hopefully people as they start Crossfit have a affiliate that does some smart programming or they get into fitness and start to do their own research.

Andrew Wilson
12-04-2010, 10:03 AM
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1866/13253915.png

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Jarod Barker
12-04-2010, 11:29 AM
Orlando or Lipson, but that might be giving anyone too much credit. They had an Olympic lifter with a 400lb CJ try it, he got like 12 if I recall?

It was Max Mormont who attempted the 15 reps touch and go clean and jerks with 225#

I would say that none of the Crossfitters could accomplish this feat. Max is incredibly strong, I think his last clean and jerk was 190kg. If he can only complete 12 reps with 225#, I'm sure that none of the Crossfit guys can beat him.

Derek Weaver
12-04-2010, 12:45 PM
As much as I agree with everything that's been said and hate all the bullshit that surrounds the marketing of crossfit, you can't deny that crossfit has manged to convince a lot of people to actually exercise with intensity which wouldn't have previously been doing so.

Watching half the people in my commercial gym doing a million isolations or sitting on the crosstrainer for an hour makes me physically ill and I'd much rather see people doing a crossfit style workout.... the lesser of two evils :) So as much as they are lying about "elite" training systems, at the end of the day most people that start doing it have no intention of being elite they just want to look better, so at least they arn't a complete waste of space cluttering up a globo gym.

I'll step out and disagree. I would rather see people toil away on the machines and doing 16 sets of curls, but without blowing out a shoulder or throwing up after their workout.

Being underfed and a dipshit doesn't justify working out with intensity. Stupid is as stupid does.

Garrett Smith
12-05-2010, 06:06 AM
Very very true. Then you get stuff like this video: http://sicfit.com/coverage/237386-A-Look-Into-the-Counter-Culture/video/374814-GET-LIFTED-Art-of-Fitness-Teaser

hahahaha!

And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsRgQ-n3Lyo

And more attitude like this:
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1866/13253915.png

All this "your exercising is inferior to us, we're elite because we use gymnastic rings and attempt 100 pound snatches". . . . . For god's sake its exercise, not a cock measuring contest. What is the psychological issue that these people have, that they need to prove themselves so much superior than other people, that they have to resort to comparing exercise regimes and their exercise equipment. LOL! Really, what's the deal with this?! Not only are they shoving out terrible, wrong information about training, but building a social cult around it, and to people outside that social group, they're challenging them to competitions. . . . . . I mean, it's like watching monkey groups on the discovery channel. Its like they, themselves, are actually a branch from the body building culture they hate so much, its just they're using different exercises.

And they act like they're the first to use gymnastics with weightliting and sprinting, pole vaulters have been using this combination for 6 decades, so have track and field teams. A good track and field coach will have the same gym layout, plus the coach will have actual accreditations and an education, and an actual training program.

I like that to get the info, you have to email dear leader. Isn't that the point of writing an article like this (usually)? To give that sort of info?

Andrew Wilson
12-05-2010, 10:15 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Steve Shafley
12-06-2010, 08:12 AM
The deliberate deception surrounding the injury rate of the average Crossfit gym is the most important topic at hand.

A quick cruise through assorted XF box blogs reveals injuries are frequent and common.

Andrew Wilson
12-06-2010, 10:53 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Garrett Smith
12-06-2010, 01:00 PM
Andrew,
To quote the CF RRG, it's just "lambs to the slaughter". One or more sacrificial lambs will have to happen during a CF event for people to really take notice of their compulsive overexercising (and "random" underpreparing) and the actual consequences. It's a horrible thing, but people only take notice of the big things.

IMO, partially a pendulum swing from so many people not exercising at all, over to exercising WAY too much.

Derek Weaver
12-06-2010, 01:32 PM
I saw that 24 WODs/24 Hours thing and thought "Wow, someone's going to die." Seriously, if someone actually finishes it, I would not be surprised by a hospital stay.

People talk about the potential health complications of marathon running, but I would run a marathon any day, with minimal training, before I would do that stupid ass "contest". At least I can walk a marathon and not be ridiculed so long as I finish. If I didn't vomit at least a few times in that 24 WOD thing, I may be excommunicated.:eek:

And when is peer review a concept to be considered hilarious? We're not talking about periodized calf and ab training here.

Andrew Wilson
12-06-2010, 02:18 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Derek Weaver
12-06-2010, 03:03 PM
By functional, do you mean being able to walk?

I'll be watching to see how this works out, but it'll be more like a morbid curiousity. Like when you stop to watch a train wreck.

Doesn't it stand to reason that short term equalization won't be possible for this? Not without actual training for the "event"?

This kind of idea may be the first time someone enters true over training, requiring weeks or months to recover, in only one day.

Like was noted earlier, 8 wods in two days of Games competition crushed the field. 24 wods in one day, even scaled should do much worse. As Garrett said, it's the bad stuff that gets attention.

You would think that when that Navy guy was disabled it would have spurred change. Instead it spurred the RRG, and the ultimate in low brow, a named workout.

Emily Mattes
12-06-2010, 08:36 PM
At its very worst (i.e. the ad copy coming from HQ), Crossfit is the fitness version of Fight Club, drawing on the subconscious dissatisfaction of the suburban masses and promising them authenticity in return for absolute devotion.

Brian DeGennaro
12-06-2010, 08:51 PM
Is Castro Brad Pitt/alter ego of Glassman then?

James Evans
12-08-2010, 02:13 AM
Sadly it's more Never Back Down than Fight Club.

Allen Yeh
12-08-2010, 05:00 AM
Moved it because this thread really has nothing to do with fitness/gpp and training.

Kelly White
12-08-2010, 07:02 AM
Watching half the people in my commercial gym doing a million isolations or sitting on the crosstrainer for an hour makes me physically ill and I'd much rather see people doing a crossfit style workout.... the lesser of two evils :) So as much as they are lying about "elite" training systems, at the end of the day most people that start doing it have no intention of being elite they just want to look better, so at least they arn't a complete waste of space cluttering up a globo gym.

I hear you, but I have to disagree with this point;

My globo gym has one platform with a power rack, and two squat racks. This area used do be void of life except for the 3 or so members who actually used barbells, and the 10 minute influx of the arm curl pumping crowd.

Now my tiny corner is always busy these days with a new vibram footed crowd heaving wicked overhead squats and power snatches with a dime and a nickle.

One guy last week was doing overhead quarter squats with 95lbs (he is the heavy hitter of the crowd) with his hands about two feet apart (I thought he was going to press). He almost fell over on each rep, then dumped the (iron) weights forward into the back legs of the rack. Awsome.

I long for the days of cable rows and drop sets in the smith machine.

Blair Lowe
12-08-2010, 12:06 PM
Blame this on the proliferation of the Olympic Lifts into use by the masses.

One of the mondo expensive gyms around here expouses the Olympic Lifts for their S&C. This is not just a gym, but a gym, spa, salon, club for the wealthy. I don't know exactly how rich you have to be, but I don't hear of people making under 6 digits going there.

So it's not just about being HC, it can be about functional. But what happens when they are doing them on their own because they saw them in Men's Health or Maxim? 1/4 squats with 25's.

Andrew Wilson
12-08-2010, 12:15 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

On my first post concerning metabolic conditioning:

"Anaerobic training can match endurance training for aerobic benefit" [sic]
No this is wrong. Endurance training elicits increases in cardiac volume, adaptive changes in the peripherical circulations, bioenergetic efficiency in steady state, increases oxidative capacity of the slow twitch fibers, contractility of the fast twitch fibers with slow twitch fibers, enhances the oxidative capacity of fast twitch fibers (Verkhoshansky, 1999). Anaerobic training does not.


The VO2max is only optimually developed in 100%-80% VO2max, that's maximal runs in 2mi-13mi. Anaerobic effort exceeds the 100% of the VO2max; that's the purpose of having the anaerobic energy pathways in the first place. Just doing anaerobic training you will not develop the optimal physiological effects that are specifically developed during aerobic training mentioned above. Interval training increases VO2max because these elite athletes that use interval training, do so at a pace, not maximal run, or continue effort at a lower intensity during the rest period; not just stopping as people think. This is seen in Seb Coe's 7x800m (3.5mi), he runs the 800m at 5km pace, which is one way he built his VO2max to run a 3:47 mile, and Roger Bannister's 10x400m (2.5mi+) with two minutes of jogging as rest and 5x800m with 6 minute job as rest.


"Metabolic training with varying and mixed exercise modalities avoids specificity of adaptation following for additional first wave - cardiovascular/respiratory adaptations, and increased functional strength" [sic]
One, all training is metabolic training for metabolic reactions are the only means to produce energy for any physical and contracile effort. Therefore high intensity circuits solely called metabolic conditioning is wrong. Two, adaptation is the ability of the body to cope with specific tasks under specific conditions (Siff, 2004). To tell the body to simply not adapt to particular and specific physical stressors is impossible, and to neglect specifity of adaptation, is simply not adapting to anything at all therfore adaptative reconstruction is not taking place. If the sportsman is not adapting, physiological improvements are void; and if the sportsman is not systematically and specifically exposed to stressors that enable them to efficiently manage future exposure, the sportsman will not be prepared for anything.

On Anaerobics and Aerobics
Only Anaerobics "Increases power, speed, and strength" [sic]
This is wrong. How would CrossFit explain Manny Pacquiao's power, speed and strength in round 13? Or Kenenisa Bekele's 26:17 world record in the 10,000m? Power, speed, and strength are dependant and developed on the adaptation of resistance and speed of contractile movement, the inter and intramuscular coordination of the muscle fibers for contractile effort, the frequency and intensity of neurological firing based on previous exposure and present use; the rate it can produce force. Thus the production of ATP is simply the supplimentation of energy for these efforts are not the cause.


Aerobics "Burn Muscle" [sic]
No this is patheticly wrong. The muscle quantity in the human body does not change or yet to be conditionally proved under normal conditions to change in quantity; and hyperplasia is heavily questioned. Muscles simply change in size experiencing hypertrophy or atrophy, simply because of the increase or decrease in the number and size of individual myofibrils in the fibers and connective tissue. Volume of non contractile protein and semifluid plasma between the myofibrils decrease or increase, or there is an increase or decrease in the size and number of sarcomeres that comprise the myofibrils. These are by products of bioenergetic and muscular tension demands in specificity of training. Otherwise ultramarathon runners would have two muscles fibers according to CrossFit.

Only Anaerobics "Builds Muscle" [sic]
No wrong, same thing.

Only Anaerobics "Aids in all sports"
An amatuer statement. Same as the first point.

Anaerobics "Develops aerobic capacity" [sic]
No... it does not. Both have individual cellular organs that house the production of adenosine triphosphate in their own way, they do not cross over. Otherwise according to CrossFit Usain Bolt would win all the 100mi races. Anaerobics aid in myocardial power, work power of the neuromuscular system, increase the work power of the muscular system at specific regimes of recall, and decrease the parity between adenosine triphosphate production w/ & w/o oxygen at varying intensities of effort as they collaborate in physical performance.

Pukie on VO2max:
VO2max is the relative maximum volume per millilter per body mass per minute consumed; how much oxygen can be consumed per breath of air over a minute. It is the golden standard because it has a high revalance of the body's ability to attach oxygen to hemoglobin in the blood and to be used metabolically to produce ATP efficiently.

Arien Malec
12-08-2010, 01:32 PM
"Anaerobic training can match endurance training for aerobic benefit"
No this is wrong. Endurance training elicits increases in cardiac volume, adaptive changes in the peripherical circulations, bioenergetic efficiency in steady state, increases oxidative capacity of the slow twitch fibers, contractility of the fast twitch fibers with slow twitch fibers, enhances the oxidative capacity of fast twitch fibers (Verkhoshansky, 199). Anaerobic training does not.

Really?

I'm not sure exactly what "anaerobic training" is, but if we place training on a spectrum, 2000m rowing would seem to be more biased towards anaerobic pathways than marathon running or long distance cycling. Are you saying that the massive hearts and VO2Max of elite rowers is only due to the 70% of energy that comes from the aerobic pathways, and the power output of the other 30% (and recovery from same) has no contribution?

If I did nothing but run 100m sprints, I would get no improvement in VO2Max?

(Sorry for messing up the flow of the hate).

Ben Moskowitz
12-08-2010, 02:19 PM
(Sorry for messing up the flow of the hate).

ditto, what about the pictures of very skinny cyclists vs. hypertrophied sprinters that are touted as clear evidence that aerobics destroy muscle while higher-powered activities build it? I mean that's an open-and-shut case right there, no?

Arien Malec
12-08-2010, 02:31 PM
ditto, what about the pictures of very skinny cyclists vs. hypertrophied sprinters that are touted as clear evidence that aerobics destroy muscle while higher-powered activities build it? I mean that's an open-and-shut case right there, no?

On the off chance you aren't being facetious:

That's confusing correlation and causation. Elite marathon runners and cyclists lose muscle deliberately to reduce the work that needs to be performed.

Andrew Wilson
12-08-2010, 02:52 PM
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1998/4008001500mvari.png
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2130/4008001500moxygncost.png
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/416/4008001500menergyystem.png
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5936/4008001500moxygndeficit.png

Andrew Wilson
12-08-2010, 02:57 PM
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9876/ana2m.png
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2336/anaa.png
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8237/5chart.gif

Andrew Wilson
12-08-2010, 03:04 PM
ditto, what about the pictures of very skinny cyclists vs. hypertrophied sprinters that are touted as clear evidence that aerobics destroy muscle while higher-powered activities build it? I mean that's an open-and-shut case right there, no?

Very skinny cyclists:
http://www.cyclingmaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/chris20hoy20legs1.jpg
Hypertrophied sprinters:
http://www.dyestat.com/3us/4out/olympicgames/pix/12bolt-prelim.jpg100m 200m
http://blogs.saschina.org/maya01px2018/files/2010/05/jeremy-wariner.jpg400m
http://georgiainfo.galileo.usg.edu/tdgh-jul/MichaelJohnson2.jpg

Arien Malec
12-08-2010, 03:21 PM
Neither do I hahaha, I'm assuming "anaerobic training" [sic] he means 100m dash or 1-3 rep maximal lifts that last as long as the oxygen deficit on initiation. Other wise anything else has a building use of oxidation/aerobic energy system, or a dominance switch between both based demands in performance.

Right. Glassman means "anaerobic dominant" except that the Crossfit time domains aren't even anaerobic dominant. So "anaerobic dominantish". 6 minute duration power-dominant activities can develop VO2Max. Witness rowers. So the phrase means nothing.

If the quote were "intense efforts over shorter (3-12 minute) durations can develop cardiovascular capacity as well or better than longer slower distance events" would you disagree?

It [development of CV benefits from 100m runs] would depend on the rest interval between each 100m and the type of rest, which greatly effects which energy system you use to regenerate the ATP expended during the original 100m. Like some middle distance runners would do 20x100m but the rest intervals would solely be jogging and be like 30 seconds. While a decathlete would do 10x100m and may rest 5 minutes inbetween standing. In this case the 20x100m with 30 second jog as rest would see an improvement in VO2max as in its a form of fartlek.

But doesn't every recovery from a max effort 100m run require pretty intense demands on the CV system? The 100m effort is primarily ATP/glycolytic but the recovery sure isn't, no?

Donald Lee
12-08-2010, 04:58 PM
People who are sedentary and start lifting weights experience improvements in RHR, indicating an increase in stroke volume at rest, which indicates an increase in left ventricular volume.

People who are sedentary will also experience improvements in VO2 Max from training like a 100 m sprinter.

But so what?

Andrew Wilson
12-08-2010, 07:51 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7956/captureqyz.png

Andrew Wilson
12-08-2010, 08:02 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Shane Skowron
12-08-2010, 08:53 PM
If the quote were "intense efforts over shorter (3-12 minute) durations can develop cardiovascular capacity as well or better than longer slower distance events" would you disagree?

No...because it doesn't...

Arien Malec
12-08-2010, 09:14 PM
No...because it doesn't...

How do you explain the 2000m rowers with massive hearts and absolute VO2Max higher than anyone else?

James Evans
12-09-2010, 01:12 AM
Because they don't exclusively operate over 2000m.

Sample training from Tuesday night at the club:

6 x 6 mins

or

2 x 7km

Don't know what rate or with what recovery periods these were done.

The year builds through longer races (heads - the Oxford-Cambridge Boat Race is an example) and 5km is the bench mark and then into the regattas, closer to the 2km mark.

These guys are banging out long ergs and water sessions throughout the winter.

James Evans
12-09-2010, 01:17 AM
It's not just Glassman who has argued the primacy of metabolic conditioning over all other means although we can safely say that CrossFit are the most zealous proponents of this ideology.

Going balls to the wall is everywhere these days. Look at all the trendy MMA training out there. This is the stuff that Joel Jamieson has tried to address.

Shane Skowron
12-09-2010, 09:18 AM
How do you explain the 2000m rowers with massive hearts and absolute VO2Max higher than anyone else?

I'm not a rower, but I used to train when the rowing team at my college did. They would row for an hour at a time. Just because they compete at the 2k doesn't mean they stay in the 3-12 minute time frame.

I also watched the swim team. They spent over an hour of swimming.


Any any cross country team in the world trains more than 12 minutes...

Andrew Wilson
12-09-2010, 10:13 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Arien Malec
12-09-2010, 12:56 PM
I'm not a rower, but I used to train when the rowing team at my college did. They would row for an hour at a time. Just because they compete at the 2k doesn't mean they stay in the 3-12 minute time frame.

Super useful. It seems to me, just on the General Adaptation Syndrome principle, stresses that leave me gasping for air and have my heart racing are going to trigger an adaptation. That stress can be an short duration but more acute stress (500K row generating massive anaerobic stresses above VO2 max with recovery) and can be a long duration, less acute stress (5-10K hard row).

Andrew's answer seems the best one to me: yes, balls to the walls 2000k rows will produce a VO2 Max adaptations, but recovery is going to be difficult, and better to build a base with longer duration rows.

Which would seem to be the answer to the @F article: yes, short-duration intense work will create a CV adaptation, but just try doing that as your main program.

http://board.crossfit.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

Donald Lee
12-09-2010, 01:53 PM
Super useful. It seems to me, just on the General Adaptation Syndrome principle, stresses that leave me gasping for air and have my heart racing are going to trigger an adaptation. That stress can be an short duration but more acute stress (500K row generating massive anaerobic stresses above VO2 max with recovery) and can be a long duration, less acute stress (5-10K hard row).

Andrew's answer seems the best one to me: yes, balls to the walls 2000k rows will produce a VO2 Max adaptations, but recovery is going to be difficult, and better to build a base with longer duration rows.

Which would seem to be the answer to the @F article: yes, short-duration intense work will create a CV adaptation, but just try doing that as your main program.

http://board.crossfit.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

Arien,

Read Lyle's series on intervals vs. steady state.

HIIT type stuff does increase VO2 Max, but it doesn't create all the aerobic adaptations necessary for longer events. For example, it doesn't sufficiently increase left ventricular volume because left ventricular volume tops out at intensities of about 65-75% of MHR (I just guessed this percentage b/c I forget the exact percentage). It also doesn't sufficiently increase mitochondrial density. It also doesn't sufficiently increase capillary density. It also doesn't sufficiently hypetrophy the slow twitch fibers. It also doesn't sufficiently upregulate the concentration of aerobic enzymes.

Geoffrey Thompson
12-09-2010, 01:55 PM
Which would seem to be the answer to the @F article: yes, short-duration intense work will create a CV adaptation, but just try doing that as your main program.

http://board.crossfit.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

It's been a while since I clicked through that link. Man, it's a horror show there. Just count the rhabdo cases in the last month. Madness.

Arien Malec
12-09-2010, 02:44 PM
Read Lyle's series on intervals vs. steady state.

Good stuff. Particularly:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/methods-of-endurance-training-part-5-interval-training-part-2.html


HIIT type stuff does increase VO2 Max, but it doesn't create all the aerobic adaptations necessary for longer events. For example, it doesn't sufficiently increase left ventricular volume because left ventricular volume tops out at intensities of about 65-75% of MHR (I just guessed this percentage b/c I forget the exact percentage). It also doesn't sufficiently increase mitochondrial density. It also doesn't sufficiently increase capillary density. It also doesn't sufficiently hypetrophy the slow twitch fibers. It also doesn't sufficiently upregulate the concentration of aerobic enzymes.

Leaving behind all the @F crap about how metcons rule for all kinds of sports adaptation, for the guy who wants a baseline of health but wants to stay power dominant, what level of GGP is sufficient? Is the lifting tradition of finishers (prowler, sled, sandbag work, KB work) sufficient to preserve CV health while explicitly staying away from the endurance adaptations?

Andrew Wilson
12-09-2010, 03:36 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Arien Malec
12-09-2010, 04:37 PM
I think I'll put up my decathlon program on a blog sometime this week.

Gosh, decathlon training as a model for power-based generalist training. Whodathunk?

Derek Weaver
12-09-2010, 07:13 PM
I've seen it on Lyle's site, maybe on this site, and I'm pretty sure I've seen Joel Jamieson all say something to the effect that: the lowest intensity that can be used in order to cause the desired adaptation should be the default.

The biggest problem with people touting intervals over anything else is that they say "train like an athlete". They don't make mention as to whether this is "athlete training" in-season, off season, what part of the off season etc.

Kevin Perry
12-09-2010, 07:39 PM
hahahahaha someone would make some much money off CrossFit marketing if a decathlete went into the Games and CRUSHED IT. This is my CrossFit Cobra Commander plot, I'm going to build a team of decathletes to sweep the podium at the Games and take that $1,000,000 purse prize they're bragging out.

Do what you must do, im tired of hearing about @fit eliteness

Shane Skowron
12-10-2010, 07:35 AM
hahahahaha someone would make some much money off CrossFit marketing if a decathlete went into the Games and CRUSHED IT. This is my CrossFit Cobra Commander plot, I'm going to build a team of decathletes to sweep the podium at the Games and take that $1,000,000 purse prize they're bragging out.

Yeah but....can they do double-unders????

Garrett Smith
12-10-2010, 08:24 AM
It's been a while since I clicked through that link. Man, it's a horror show there. Just count the rhabdo cases in the last month. Madness.
Where will the @F injury ship sail when Mr. Low finally decides to stop helping them all out?

Steven, you're doing an admirable thing over there. Your patience is even greater than mine, and that's saying something.

Steven Low
12-10-2010, 09:53 AM
Where will the @F injury ship sail when Mr. Low finally decides to stop helping them all out?

Steven, you're doing an admirable thing over there. Your patience is even greater than mine, and that's saying something.
lol

I visit maybe a 4-5x of times per week.... at least 10-15 new threads every time.

Steven Low
12-10-2010, 10:00 AM
100m is primarily ATP-CP and oxidative-independent, meaning the cardiovascular system nor oxygen in the blood stream isn't needed to produce ATP, hence the oxygen deficit. If you just ran 100m, the stopped, and just stood around for 5 minutes, the ATP-CP which was ready before the 100m and wiped out after, would begin to replenish while you're just standing there. However, if you were slow jogging for 3 minutes after the 100m, the ATP-CP being wiped out, a new energy system would kick in dominance to continue to produce ATP for the jog which would be glycolysis.

This is not exactly correct.

Glycolysis turns on maximally above lactate threshold.

Below lac threshold you're using oxidative phosphorylation as the main energy source.

So if you jog for 3 minutes after 100m sprint, glycolysis is turned on somewhat (but not maximally) while mitochondria are replacing the oxygen debt + providing energy for the jog.

------------------------------

The delusion of the energy curves is that each of the contributions of energy are used in that specific order. It's actually almost a reverse order in which they are used.

Aerobic is the prominent resource used during any low intensity activity.

Current ATP stores, PCr, and a bit of glycolysis accounts for some of the lag time between ramping up activity and distribution of oxygen/CO2 to/from the cardiovascular system to the muscles.

Glycolysis is never maximally stimulated unless above lac threshold; thus, the majority of energy contributions below lac threshold are always from aerobic sources (e.g. oxidative phosphorylation in mitochondria).

The energy curves look drastically different for maximal intensity exercise vs. lac threshold vs. walking/slow jogging.

----------------------------

This is also why a lot of Clyde Hart's stuff for 400m utilizes multiple repeats of sub-lac 200m which ramp up intensity building up into the track season. At first you're building primarily aerobic base with them. As the intensity during starts to ramp up during teh season, you still get the aerobic base component + some lac training. Then nearer to major competition you're maintaining the aerobic base + developing the lactate endurance you need to finish strong.

Building up aerobic base (for races longer than 25-30s) especially 400m which is 60/40 anaerobic/aerobic (50/50 for women) is important because aerobic can easily accomodate more adaptation and thus more energy to power running (2 ATP vs 34 ATP). The higher the energy storage in muscles via myoglobin + cardiorespiratory adaptations you don't get as much from as from sprinting alone encourages a broader aerobic base upon which to build a foundation for the more intense lactic training needed to finish off a 400m sprint.

In other words, the greater percentage of your Vo2max that you can go without going above lac threshold, the faster you can run 400m or beyond. Elite endurance athletes can go up around 80-85% VO2max without going above lac threshold.

Thus, why 400m is primarily a combination of 3 types of training:
~Increasing strength and application of through plyometrics
~Increasing maximal sprinting speed through training form and short sprints (0-80m)
~Building aerobic base (off season/preseason) and then adapting into training lac threshold (in season)

This translates to....

1. Increase speed (via sprinting mechanics + strength/plyo).
2. Increase % of Vo2max you can run at without going above lac thresh = increased speed endurance (aerobic base... slower 200m repeats in Hart's coaching)
3. Develop lac threshold tolerance to finish race (supra lac threshold training via usually increased intensity of HIIT -- faster 200m repeats in Hart's coaching)

Andrew Wilson
12-10-2010, 10:34 AM
This is not exactly correct.

Glycolysis turns on maximally above lactate threshold.

Below lac threshold you're using oxidative phosphorylation as the main energy source.

So if you jog for 3 minutes after 100m sprint, glycolysis is turned on somewhat (but not maximally) while mitochondria are replacing the oxygen debt + providing energy for the jog.

------------------------------

The delusion of the energy curves is that each of the contributions of energy are used in that specific order. It's actually almost a reverse order in which they are used.

Aerobic is the prominent resource used during any low intensity activity.

Current ATP stores, PCr, and a bit of glycolysis accounts for some of the lag time between ramping up activity and distribution of oxygen/CO2 to/from the cardiovascular system to the muscles.

Glycolysis is never maximally stimulated unless above lac threshold; thus, the majority of energy contributions below lac threshold are always from aerobic sources (e.g. oxidative phosphorylation in mitochondria).

The energy curves look drastically different for maximal intensity exercise vs. lac threshold vs. walking/slow jogging.

----------------------------

This is also why a lot of Clyde Hart's stuff for 400m utilizes multiple repeats of sub-lac 200m which ramp up intensity building up into the track season. At first you're building primarily aerobic base with them. As the intensity during starts to ramp up during teh season, you still get the aerobic base component + some lac training. Then nearer to major competition you're maintaining the aerobic base + developing the lactate endurance you need to finish strong.

Building up aerobic base (for races longer than 25-30s) especially 400m which is 60/40 anaerobic/aerobic (50/50 for women) is important because aerobic can easily accomodate more adaptation and thus more energy to power running (2 ATP vs 34 ATP). The higher the energy storage in muscles via myoglobin + cardiorespiratory adaptations you don't get as much from as from sprinting alone encourages a broader aerobic base upon which to build a foundation for the more intense lactic training needed to finish off a 400m sprint.

In other words, the greater percentage of your Vo2max that you can go without going above lac threshold, the faster you can run 400m or beyond. Elite endurance athletes can go up around 80-85% VO2max without going above lac threshold.

Thus, why 400m is primarily a combination of 3 types of training:
~Increasing strength and application of through plyometrics
~Increasing maximal sprinting speed through training form and short sprints (0-80m)
~Building aerobic base (off season/preseason) and then adapting into training lac threshold (in season)

This translates to....

1. Increase speed (via sprinting mechanics + strength/plyo).
2. Increase % of Vo2max you can run at without going above lac thresh = increased speed endurance (aerobic base... slower 200m repeats in Hart's coaching)
3. Develop lac threshold tolerance to finish race (supra lac threshold training via usually increased intensity of HIIT -- faster 200m repeats in Hart's coaching)

...

Andrew Wilson
12-10-2010, 10:49 AM
It's been a while since I clicked through that link. Man, it's a horror show there. Just count the rhabdo cases in the last month. Madness.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7307/rhabdo.png

Universally scalable program has been proven sound
Experts offering fitness, nutrition, or health regimens that they claim are distilled from first principles rather than clinical practice are fooling those who listen to them and, as often as not, themselves as well

John P. Walsh
12-10-2010, 11:45 AM
Oh how the Kool Aid has soured! Remember me before it was cool to hate @fit? LULZ!

http://foodshare.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/killer-kool-aid.gif










http://moynihaninstitute.com/

Derek Weaver
12-11-2010, 01:32 AM
That's a legendary post

Jon Pechette
12-11-2010, 07:37 AM
What's the general consensus on Gant's Hybrid? I know this may be slightly off topic, but I'm pretty new to these forums (been browsing them for a while, though) and I was wondering if the problem that most people here have with CF is with CFHQ or with CrossFit methods or only with some of CF's methods.

I think that there is no way that a person can develop elite levels of strength with CF alone (pulling heavy singles a few times a year producing a 500+ pound deadlift? That's a load of crap). I do like the conditioning aspect, though (if you remove less-useful movements: SDHP for example). Right now I'm doing something very similar to Gant's Hybrid program: 5/3/1 with short, heavy metcons, and extra running (usually 400m repeats). It's very planned out (exact opposite of the CF mainpage) with the workouts focused around assisting the main lift. Recovery is very important (I don't go 100% all the time, especially on the deload weeks). I've been seeing great gains and I've PR'd in almost everything the last couple of months (OL, PL, CF benchmarks, rowing, running, sprints and longer efforts).

That was longer post than I thought it was going to be, I feel like it should be a new thread...sorry :/

Don Stevenson
12-11-2010, 04:13 PM
Don't try and get this thread back onto serious training discussion, it's too far off the tracks for that.

Andrew, nice work!

Derek Weaver
12-11-2010, 11:56 PM
What's the general consensus on Gant's Hybrid? I know this may be slightly off topic, but I'm pretty new to these forums (been browsing them for a while, though) and I was wondering if the problem that most people here have with CF is with CFHQ or with CrossFit methods or only with some of CF's methods.

I think that there is no way that a person can develop elite levels of strength with CF alone (pulling heavy singles a few times a year producing a 500+ pound deadlift? That's a load of crap). I do like the conditioning aspect, though (if you remove less-useful movements: SDHP for example). Right now I'm doing something very similar to Gant's Hybrid program: 5/3/1 with short, heavy metcons, and extra running (usually 400m repeats). It's very planned out (exact opposite of the CF mainpage) with the workouts focused around assisting the main lift. Recovery is very important (I don't go 100% all the time, especially on the deload weeks). I've been seeing great gains and I've PR'd in almost everything the last couple of months (OL, PL, CF benchmarks, rowing, running, sprints and longer efforts).

That was longer post than I thought it was going to be, I feel like it should be a new thread...sorry :/

What you're doing isn't anywhere close to CF. Gant's Hybrid was and still is a good way to set up a combination of conditioning and weight training.

What you're doing right now is really no different than what a lot of successful coaches do for their athletes.

In general, if you get stronger, you will PR most of the CF workouts.

Andrew Wilson
12-12-2010, 12:04 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Glassman plagiarizing Supertraining, and Crossfit L1 cert is the same price as 3 USTF certications, 2 USAW cert with left overs
Page 31 from Supertraining (Siff Verkhoshansky 1999, 4th edition):
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/978/fitness.png

Arien Malec
12-12-2010, 12:44 PM
Glassman: "We've repeatedly and publicly challenged the exercise science community to name a single major contribution to sport coming from their ranks - steroids don't count!"

Geoffrey Thompson
12-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Goro. Wow. That was a master stroke.

Derek Weaver
12-12-2010, 08:44 PM
Is it still plagiarism if you didn't understand what you read? Maybe that's the deal.

Andrew Wilson
12-13-2010, 02:24 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Wayne Riddle
12-13-2010, 04:59 PM
http://journal.crossfit.com/2010/12/roundtabletahoe-outside.tpl

The assembled CrossFitters agree that while some football players and other power athletes might be capable of moving more weight, moving their own mass at body-weight movements will exhaust them at high volume. According to Tommy Hackenbruck, that type of athlete just has “too big of an engine.”

Even if someone has the talent, there’s the issue of training and mental fortitude.

“None of these guys are going to come in and do well without any CrossFit training. That will never happen,” Castro says. “They don’t have that mindset to push like CrossFitters do.”

Matt Reilly
12-13-2010, 06:10 PM
So I just watched that video where they(CrossFit) say Bryan Clay isn't mentally tough enough to do a CrossFit competition.

Actually, the comment was geared toward decathletes as a whole, not just Bryan Clay. I love how they throw out such a ridiculous blanket statement without having the slightest bit of evidence to back it up. I guess it fits pretty well with the rest of Crossfit's monstrous claims and lack of supporting facts.

Gant Grimes
12-13-2010, 09:14 PM
The assembled CrossFitters agree that while some football players and other power athletes might be capable of moving more weight, moving their own mass at body-weight movements will exhaust them at high volume. According to Tommy Hackenbruck, that type of athlete just has “too big of an engine.”

Even if someone has the talent, there’s the issue of training and mental fortitude.

“None of these guys are going to come in and do well without any CrossFit training. That will never happen,” Castro says. “They don’t have that mindset to push like CrossFitters do.”

"Just when I thought they couldn't possibly be any dumber, they go and do something like this... and totally redeem themselves!"

Andrew Wilson
12-13-2010, 09:44 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Gant Grimes
12-13-2010, 09:51 PM
Is this guy a troll? or is he serious?

Andrew, my friend, I know where you are in all this because I was there myself. The short answer is YES. They believe it. They believe every bit of it. What you'd swear is trolling is actually a carefully crafted post by a kool-aid drinker.

It's worse than you think. Much much worse.

Justin Arnold
12-13-2010, 10:24 PM
Wow. just.. wow.

Ryne Clos
12-13-2010, 10:47 PM
I had a friend recommend CrossFit to me in the summer of 2008, just before the Olympics. The first time I checked out the site, I went to the forum after being excited by a lot of the other stuff and saw all of these discussions about how CrossFit people were better athletes than the Olympians. It was stuff like, "Sure, Michael Phelps would out-swim me, but can he squat 400 pounds and run the mile in 5 minutes?" I imagine that he can. That was when I decided that maybe CrossFit wasn't for me.

Derek Weaver
12-13-2010, 11:25 PM
I like that quote in Andre's post about Glassman being able to out work almost any athlete requiring large loads and all.

Never mind that he's got a limp that keeps him from working out, but the guy with no arms or legs hits the WOD like a maniac.

I will admit that I used to drink the Kool-Aid until maybe 20 months ago I was still recovering from the CF hang over.

I still remember sitting there one day and thinking to myself "This isn't original. At all. And why do I keep getting hurt, burning out, and where did all the strength I had built doing SS go?"

I really like how they ripped off the 10 components of fitness from a couple of track coaches. The guys from Dynamax or something right? Yet, T &F athletes would get punked at working out with CF'ers in what are known as "Games". Also known as sadistic self torture in the form of idiotic workouts.

Justin Arnold
12-13-2010, 11:52 PM
I've been doing some of CFFB's programming while I find a better program for my needs. When people ask what I'm doing to train for fire department agility tests I'm hesitant to say the "CrossFit" part of Crossfit Football out loud. It just stings to say that word and risk being associated with the utter stupidity and brainwashing of the vast majority of these people. Ill be the first to admit, there are a few great people involved, with great ideas. I just have to pick and choose the parts that can actually be regarded as sane.

Andrew Wilson
12-14-2010, 12:05 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Wayne Riddle
12-14-2010, 02:44 AM
I'm waiting for some CF gamers to take a main site pledge, only do the main site programming and nothing else. If CFHQ is sp smart and great this should be all they need.

Never happen.

Shane Skowron
12-14-2010, 06:31 AM
Matt for a start Crossfit is not hype, remember what Coach Glassman was trying to achieve when he orchestrated the program. To suggest that Crossfitters are not the fittest athletes on the planet is offensive to all of us living within the Crossfit community.

Personally I think Crossfit is the only program required to meet every athletes fitness needs. Coach has done away with the need for useless and time consuming things such as periodization, specialization and individulization. He has created a website which meets the needs of everyone looking to achieve elite fitness all within a 20 odd minute workout per day. (sheer genius)

Remember one of our more popular slogans "your workout is our warmup" think about that for a minute. Coach Glassman could probably still beat most proffessional athletes in a any workout which requires the ability to move large loads long distances over broad time and moadal domains.

Why are we always wanting pro athletes to compete at the games why don't we go after them at their own sports ? I foresee a future where Crossfit athletes hold a number of world records and world titles !!



No, that's not real. I really don't believe that's real.




I'm waiting for some CF gamers to take a main site pledge, only do the main site programming and nothing else. If CFHQ is sp smart and great this should be all they need.

Never happen.

I'm pretty sure OPT did that a couple years ago. Then he switched.



If the needs of elite athletes and grandmothers differ by degree, not by kind, how come the top Games' competitors do training that is entirely different than what they post on crossfit.com?

Brian DeGennaro
12-14-2010, 07:15 AM
Sadly, I'm sure those were are not tongue in cheek, because I've heard the same words spouted by others. It's a game of "my daddy can beat up your daddy."

The one thing that really gets to me in taking Glassman or anyone else seriously is when they are self-proclaimed "coaches" or allow other people to call them coaches (Burgener is probably the ONLY exception to this). It's really hard because of what my high school track coach told us freshman year.

My high school track coach told us to never, ever call him "coach" or "coach whatever." We asked why and he replied: "because any jackass can call themselves 'coach' and still know nothing about anything. It's an insult to me and my intelligence, call me Mr [insert last name]."

I think I almost called Mike Mr. Burgener one time in person instead of Coach because I respect him.

Andrew Wilson
12-14-2010, 09:36 AM
I don't want to change this subject, but:

Confirmed Rhabdo. Friends kidneys are fine , liver might be in trouble.
Does this mean permanent muscle loss!? What kind of rehabilitation is done??? What diet should be adhered to???
Advice much appreciated

Damn. After reading stories like this and your articles, I'm still mind boggled that HQ encourages jokes about this.


I really hate the "Death Before DNF" concept, too.

Good luck in your recovery, friend. Take it easy.

My girlfriend was discharged from the hospital on Thanksgiving for Rhabdo in her arms from crossfit. Liver enxymes were high as well, no damage to kidneys. She's gotten full function back, but says her arms get tired a lot quicker than they used to. She has been taking finals the last two weeks and this is her last week, but she is leaning towards cutting packaged food from her diet (no paleo, not interested or pushed for) once finals are over in addition to getting back into the gym. Her doctor encouraged her to get back to exercising this week, actually. Every case is different, though, so don't take her experience as recommendations for anyone elses.
http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=63456

"Death Before DNF"???

Andrew Wilson
12-14-2010, 09:52 AM
Lisbeth Darsh from CrossFit Watertown writes:

I will promise to do my best. My best will vary from day to day, from hour to hour, from minute to minute. But in that minute, I will do the very best that I can.
If I can run, I run. If I have to walk, I walk. When I am forced to crawl, I crawl. And then I rest and live to fight another day.
I fear no man but I fear my workout. If I don’t fear my workout, it isn’t hard enough.
I may puke. I may cry. But I will not quit. Ever.
I never cheat. There is no honor in cheating. What joy can there be in a victory I did not earn?
And, this begot an apparel styling:



Now, several months ago, I wrote a piece about whether or not CrossFit was anti-feminist. And, I believe and still do, that CrossFit is empowering, kick ass and a shot to the arm for women of all ages and shapes. However, and this is a major however, CrossFit is a fickle mistress (or master). The spirit of CrossFit can be down right intimidating and for this reason sometimes tough to stick to.

Since, I have moved to La Jolla to work with Marcus, LifeAsRx and CrossFit Counter Culture, I have already wavered in my dedication to CF. This has taken the form of doing less workouts and shoveling out a whole lot of excuses. And, I will be damned, this is my life story. One in which, I picked up a life in New England, and deposited it in La Jolla, thinking simply that being at another CrossFit with a different coach, I would settle and ameliorate my issues with consistency and commitment to health and fitness.

One the one hand, I want to critique the the philosophy of Death Before DNF. Death Before DNF, which means one has not completed a WOD, is harsh. It’s moderately pejorative and seems to go against everything we have been inculcated about the behavior and society.

In plainer terms, we live in a time where mediocrity is celebrated. If one child doesn’t have a particular talent, a parent is taught to FIND (as opposed to CULTIVATE) a certain something nice about their child and let their child develop as they will. This is liberal crap which frankly has not gotten this country far.

So, on the other hand ( probably my right hand begins I am a rightie), CrossFit, Death Before DNF, calling yourself a fire breather…well, at the very minimum inspires someone to look deep inside themselves and question, “Am I living the best life possible?” More importantly, it brings an ugly truth to the fore (at least for me). Anything worth having, achieving or loving requires work. Not namby-pamby, pseudo psychology a la Malcolm Gladwell. But Kentucky coal mining work. Grinding out each day and not stopping.

Henry Rollins wrote for Details a piece entitled, Iron. The following is a portion:

I have never met a truly strong person who didn’t have self-respect. I think a lot of inwardly and outwardly directed contempt passes itself off as self-respect: the idea of raising yourself by stepping on someone’s shoulders instead of doing it yourself. When I see guys working out for cosmetic reasons, I see vanity exposing them in the worst way, as cartoon characters, billboards for imbalance and insecurity. Strength reveals itself through character. It is the difference between bouncers who get off strong-arming people and Mr. Pepperman.

Muscle mass does not always equal strength. Strength is kindness and sensitivity. Strength is understanding that your power is both physical and emotional. That it comes from the body and the mind. And the heart.

Life is capable of driving you out of your mind. The way it all comes down these days, it’s some kind of miracle if you’re not insane. People have become separated from their bodies. They are no longer whole.

I see them move from their offices to their cars and on to their suburban homes. They stress out constantly, they lose sleep, they eat badly. And they behave badly. Their egos run wild; they become motivated by that which will eventually give them a massive stroke. They need the Iron Mind.

Through the years, I have combined meditation, action, and the Iron into a single strength. I believe that when the body is strong, the mind thinks strong thoughts. Time spent away from the Iron makes my mind degenerate. I wallow in a thick depression. My body shuts down my mind.

The Iron is the best antidepressant I have ever found. There is no better way to fight weakness than with strength. Once the mind and body have been awakened to their true potential, it’s impossible to turn back.
...

Geoffrey Thompson
12-14-2010, 10:01 AM
Perhaps instead of "STFU therapy", the original quote should have been "SLAP repair surgery".

Andrew Wilson
12-14-2010, 10:27 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Peter Dell'Orto
12-14-2010, 12:59 PM
Some people take exercising very seriously.

I know what you're saying here. But it made me think . . .

I take exercising very seriously, too. I just don't define "seriously" as "Death before DNF."

If I work as hard as I can when it's called for, quit working out when the cost of the workout exceeds its value, and I walk out the gym at least a little closer to my goal than the day before, I've had a good workout. To my mind I've demonstrated my seriousness about getting better and achieving my goals. I don't skip out on workouts, quit before quitting time, or put in less than I have in me that day. I take every rep and every second of training seriously, and I enjoy doing so. But I refuse to accept that I'm accepting mediocrity because I don't push myself beyond what is needed to maximize my results.

I think it's easy to confuse "exhaustion" with "productive workouts." In the clients I train, I regularly (like, every single session) mention that they've gotten more done this time than last time. More cardio time. A higher resistance level. More weight. More reps. Less time. Lower heart rate for the same work. Shorter rest. Whatever it was that day, they've done more and should take that home as proof that they are putting in good work.

And on the subject of hard work, I don't define it as "Grinding out each day and not stopping." That's only one kind of hard work. Laboring in a coal mine is nice, but coal miners don't want their kids to be coal miners and it's not because they don't value hard work. If I do more today, if I'm more productive and useful today, and I go home knowing my clients are better for what I've done for them today and my students go home with more knowledge and ability than when they arrived, I'll call that a good day's work. I don't need a sore back to prove I've done something useful.

Heh. Sorry, that's a little ranty. And it's not aimed at you but rather the attitude your quoted person's essay encompassed. Yeah, some people take it seriously. Too seriously, and define training by feelings of exhaustion rather than long-term results. I think that's a terrible mistake. All IMO, etc.

Gant Grimes
12-14-2010, 03:02 PM
In plainer terms, we live in a time where mediocrity is celebrated. If one child doesn’t have a particular talent, a parent is taught to FIND (as opposed to CULTIVATE) a certain something nice about their child and let their child develop as they will. This is liberal crap which frankly has not gotten this country far.

The irony of CF complaining about mediocrity is unbelievable. In the above paragraph, substitute 'child' with 'trainee' and 'parent' with 'trainer,' and tell me what you have.

Jim Glover
12-14-2010, 03:27 PM
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4061/dnf.png
Obviously this isn't a Crossfit Endurance shirt.

Andrew Wilson
12-14-2010, 03:40 PM
Obviously this isn't a Crossfit Endurance shirt.
HAHAHAHA

Andrew Wilson
12-15-2010, 09:42 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Darla Powell
12-15-2010, 08:29 PM
This poor woman http://theprimordialwingnut.wordpress.com/:





Greg Glassman:






THESE PEOPLE ARE GETTING CRUSHED BECAUSE OF THIS STUPID MOTHER FUCKER'S BULLSHIT


Thanks for visiting my blog, Yeah it sucks but live and learn. A lot of people are getting hurt doing Crossfit. I still haven't decided if that is due to do the original programming or just bad form while doing it. One thing is for sure, there are a lot of new box owners that don't know shite. It's rather disturbing and I admit to suffering from slight Kool Aid poisoning. Like I said, live and learn.

Andrew Wilson
12-15-2010, 09:13 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Ryne Clos
12-15-2010, 09:24 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but is the kipping pull-ups as an exercise or the sheer absurdity of the volume the cause of the problem? I am trying to improve my ability to do pull-ups and I am considering attempting kipping ones, unless they are inherently dangerous. Thanks.

Andrew Wilson
12-15-2010, 11:16 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Garrett Smith
12-16-2010, 05:05 AM
I tried to suggest to Cressey to write an article on SLAP tears and kipping pull-ups, I guess it hasn't happened.

Let's just take a look at this website on SLAP tears:
http://www.mikereinold.com/2008/11/how-does-slap-tear-occur-mechanisms-of.html
How does a SLAP Tear Occur?

Now that we have discussed the different types and classification of SLAP tears to the superior labrum, I wanted to now talk about how these shoulder injuries occur. There are several injury mechanisms that are speculated to be responsible for creating a SLAP lesion. These mechanisms range from single traumatic events to repetitive microtraumatic injuries.
[...]
Repetitive Overhead Activities

Repetitive overhead activity, such as throwing a baseball and other overhead sports, is another common mechanism of injury frequently responsible for producing SLAP injuries. This is the type of SLAP lesion that we most often see in our athletes. In 1985, Dr. Andrews first hypothesized that SLAP pathology in overhead throwing athletes was the result of the high eccentric activity of the biceps brachii during the arm deceleration and follow-through phases of the overhead throw. To determine this, they applied electrical stimulation to the biceps during arthroscopic evaluation and noted that the biceps contraction raised the labrum off of the glenoid rim.

Burkhart and Morgan have hypothesized a “peel back” mechanism that produces SLAP lesion in the overhead athlete. They suggest that when the shoulder is placed in a position of abduction and maximal external rotation, the rotation produces a twist at the base of the biceps, transmitting torsional force to the anchor.


This mechanism has received a lot of attention and several studies seem to show its accuracy. Pradham measured superior labral strain in a cadaveric model during each phase of the throwing motion. They noted that increased superior labral strain occurred during the late-cocking phase of throwing. A recent study from ASMI simulated each of these mechanisms using cadaveric models. Nine pairs of cadaveric shoulders were loaded to biceps anchor complex failure in either a position of simulated in-line loading (similar to the deceleration phase of throwing) or simulated peel back mechanism (similar to the cocking phase of overhead throwing). Results showed that 7 of 8 of the in-line loading group failed in the midsubstance of the biceps tendon with 1 of 8 fracturing at the supraglenoid tubercle. However, all 8 of the simulated peel back group failures resulted in a type II SLAP lesion.
[...]
In theory, SLAP lesions most likely occur in overhead athletes from a combination of these 2 previously described forces. The eccentric biceps activity during deceleration may serve to weaken the biceps-labrum complex, while the torsional peel back force may result in the posterosuperior detachment of the labral anchor.
If this needs further exposition, please say so. If one notes the arm positions and eccentric forces in a kipping pull-up (any style), the trail of SLAP lesions that CF is leaving becomes obvious.

Eccentric bicep loading = the negative part of the pull-up, the arms straightening at the bottom

Arm deceleration = the swing into the kip

Abduction and external rotation = the position of the arms at the apex/reversal point of the kip

Just imagine the "peel-back" force in the shoulders when they are forcefully wrenched back at the apex/reversal point of the kip. If you really think about it, the head of the humerus is trying to push out the front of the glenohumeral (shoulder) joint, the kipper is trying to RELAX their muscles at the bottom to get the most out of their kip, leaving all the strain on the LABRUM (think of it as a suction cup on the scapula that holds the humerus on the body, with the greatest forces on the top/superior and the front/anterior parts), and the resultant forces--over time (repetition)--TEAR the TOP part of the labrum from the FRONT to the BACK...this is therefore a SUPERIOR LABRUM ANTERIOR-POSTERIOR injury mechanism, almost perfectly designed (as evidenced by the orthopedic doctors making a ton of money off of people who do them).

Steven, maybe we should write an article and do some videos on this for your blog.

No amount of KStar's mWODs is going to save anyone from the slow shoulder death that is kipping pull-ups at CF-style repetition levels.

Darla Powell
12-16-2010, 06:25 AM
What was the workout that caused it? Was it from kipping pullups?
I feel so bad that people have to go through this, only because of someone's BS, with great BS marketing, while no one's regulating it, or reviewing it. The rhabdo cases blow my mind, so many people have got it from obscene amounts of GHD & pullups, yet CrossFit ignores it and people keep it up.

I'm not sure. I never did kips really as I could ( past tense) do dead hangs. I never really felt it as it happened. Just a day or two later. My last workout pre pain was Presses/Toes to Bar/ Wall Balls and Tabata Jump Rope. I just know that injuries are prevalent and my Orthopedist and PT just shook their heads when I told them I was doing CF.
In the interest of full disclosure though I did not stick with a box. After my experience I decided to do the main page and my own WODs in my home gym.

Steven Low
12-16-2010, 08:52 AM
The reason why you don't seen the top CF athletes getting slap lesions is because their shoulder mobility sucks. If your shoulder mobility sucks when you relax your shoulder muscles at the bottom of the pullup you have your muscles contracting against opening the shoulder all the way thus mitigating any forces on the biceps long head tendon. In addition, the muscles do help bar forces from the shoulder.

However, when you get people who are weak (e.g. women in general, or those with good shoulder mobility) they're the ones getting the primary forces distributed through the muscles into the other soft tissues such as the long head of the biceps. This is especially the case with learning the kipping pullups where there's going to be a lot of jerking down into the motion while learning it.

I would never ever ever ever recommending learning kipping before you at least have 3+ deadhang pullups. It's not just not a good idea putting trauma on the shoulder especially when it's easy to not do it right and jerking down into the movement which is much more dangerous than a smooth movement.

Jerking down from toes to bar can do the same thing for reference.

Yeah, maybe an article is in order we'll see...

Darla Powell
12-16-2010, 09:15 AM
Jerking down from toes to bar can do the same thing for reference.

Yeah, maybe an article is in order we'll see...

Son of a...! I bet it was the Toes to Bar. It was my first and last time doing it and come to think of it, I did feel a strange twinge in my shoulder. It wasn't painful just weird and I shrugged it off.

Garrett Smith
12-16-2010, 09:41 AM
Most people do a kip (arching forward at the bottom to gain momentum for the return) on KTEs and toes-to-bar, even though they don't necessarily feel it.

Andrew Wilson
12-16-2010, 10:46 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Ryne Clos
12-16-2010, 11:05 AM
Thanks for the profuse response. I should note that I can already do 5 deadhangs at a time and 13 total in about 5-6 minutes (3 sets). I also have a torn left labrum (have for 7 years) because of a football injury. I will skip the kipping pull-ups for a while and focus on deadhangs, jumping pull-ups, BW rows, and static holds at the top of the pull-up to improve my numbers on the deadhang. Thanks again.

Emily Mattes
12-16-2010, 01:28 PM
I can do multiple deadhangs but have yet to learn how to do one kipping. It's been a thorn in my side that I've been meaning to pull out, but given that my shoulder mobility is extremely good perhaps it's better if I remain ignorant.

Gant Grimes
12-16-2010, 01:56 PM
For those worried about doing kipping pullups for GPP, I was once able to do 50 kipping pullups in a row (at 200 pounds). I haven't done a single kipping pullup in over two years and haven't lost anything. You can live without them.

Jarod Barker
12-16-2010, 02:11 PM
Not to totally swing the conversation away from the kipping pullup, but just a thought I've been having the last few times I read this thread.

I know that CF main page programming is over-programmed with too much intensity, too often, with high reps of complex technique dependent movements, etc.

But, whatever happened to the old CF programming template?

The monostructural, weightlifitng, and gymnastics template. Where say for instance:

Day 1: Run 100m x 5 rounds
Day 2: a couplet of weightlifting and gymnastics so maybe Diane, Fran, etc.
Day 3: an AMRAP wod, so maybe something like AMRAP of Helen in 10 minutes
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: 5x3 back squat
Day 6: running and gymnastics, so maybe 4 rounds, 400m run, 50 squats
Day 7: AMRAP wod, 250m Row, 10 deadlifts 135#, and 20 pushups in 10 minutes

Whatever happened to this kind of programming? Because I really don't feel that the "old" template for programming was all that bad. Yes, there is still more HIT than should probably be present, and yes, it does lack focused strength work, BUT I don't think a programming template like the one I listed would be causing all the issues and injuries people are experiencing trying to follow the current programming.

I don't really feel that Crossfit as a concept is a dangerous concept. Why can't you work on weightlifting, throwing, gymnastics, and running? I mean, that's not all that different from the decathlete training we've been discussing. I just think the problem with Crossfit as a program is the implementation of that program. High intensity training day after day with relatively heavy loads and high reps just isn't conducive to long term health and fitness.

The "scaling" is majorly lacking as well. A workout like "Grace" might not be such a bad workout if you made a point to keep the weight low in relation to your 1RM. I've never really understood why they "Rx" weights. Why should Fran be done with 95#? What is the significance? Why not 45# or 155#?

I guess what I'm trying to say is couldn't Crossfit as a program be improved by improving its implementation? I really feel that many of the concepts, such as favoring shorter anaerobic training over aerobic training or using compound movements instead of isolation movements are smart training concepts and have validity. It seems to me that the "theory" is ok, but the actual "practice" is not reflective of the concepts and ideas behind it.

Andrew Wilson
12-16-2010, 04:52 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Andrew Wilson
12-16-2010, 06:10 PM
Another SLAP tear:
Not the way I hoped to make a first post, but life is constantly varied ...

I expect I'm going to be put in the position of having to select a surgeon to do SLAP repair on my right shoulder. Have had PT for about 7 weeks on it now with no lasting relief (manual release therapy, dry needling, the usual RC exercises such as LYTP, scapular retraction, etc). MRI was done last week (w/o contrast) and the radiologist report says "extensive" glenoid labral tear, along with a tear of the subscap tendon resulting in dislocation of long head bicep tendon.

PT says given that information there isn't much more they can do, and that to regain CF levels of activity she would go the surgical repair route. I see my GP/DO next tuesday but expect to hear something similar.

So the next step is to set up a consultation with one or more surgeons. I live in Colorado Springs, so I would hope there would be a good selection of Shoulder docs since the OTC training facility is here. I've never been under the knife for anything before so this is new ground to me.

I'll be seeing if there are recommendations from the gym/trainers (we have a bunch of ER docs in our box) but where else do you look? Googling for shoulder slap surgeons brought up a kayaker forum who had a lot of recommendations for practices in Vail CO, but that is about 5-6 hours away. When would you decide going that far is worth the logistical difficulties?

Thoughts?
Thx, -Paul
(55/m/74"/200lb)

Paul,

I just had a full capsule tightening (capsulorrhaphy) along with a labral repair (although I don't think my labral tear was quite as extensive as yours sounds), and I drove about 1.75 hours to have the surgery so that I could have the guy who works on the athletes at Duke University do it.

I guess part of the reason for my post was to find out if choosing the "best" surgeon you can find is important enough to warrant a long trip to work with them (and then all the logistical issues of followup during the long recovery).

I'm really of the mindset that I want
1. To do this right the first time
2. To be able to continue in CF and gymnastics strengthening

So you're look at 9 months to back to pull ups? Jesus, I have 3 tears in my left labrum and my right shoulder (never had checked) has "moved around unwantedly" in the middle of the night twice in the last 3 months resulting in weeks of pain and recovery.

Paul,

I'm also sitting with labrum tear & supraspinatus partial (40%) tear, with some chrondomalacia added for flavoring. For the past month I've been weighing my options and am strongly leaning towards getting the SLAP repair done....I'll also throw in a couple other points:

1. I did goto a ortho clinic that has worked with local sports (college & pro) for years.
2. When I do return to CF activities, I'm going to be extremely aware of my form/technique...on everything. That awareness has already begun, was there to a degree prior......but I wouldn't be lurking in this thread if I hadn't done something to injure myself.
3. When I return, it may not be w/out modifications. While I'm over a decade your junior, that still doesn't leave me in my 20's. I need to weigh out "How important is a sub 16:00 Angie time (w/ 100 pullups followed by 100 pushups)" vs. "How important is being able to CF, maybe without some of the high rep hammering on my shoulders". There might be a reason you don't see too many 40+, >6 foot, 200# gymnasts running around.

I think I hurt my shoulder doing high rep OH squat workout (lazy shoulder, let shoulders sag with bar overhead) over a year ago (felt a slight pop and had numbness/tingling in my arm for a couple days). I wasn't aware of possible severity and continued to workout out, likely causing my body to compensate in unsafe ways and further injuring myself. This of course is all hindsight.


I got into crossfit about 18 months ago after a long period of inactivity/stress/etc. I made the decision at the time to try to drop any preconceptions and expectations I had so I could start with a clean slate, and avoid stressing about progressing on a particular schedule, and just try to "enjoy the ride." With the support of our local box trainers, this has worked splendidly. I'm down 60lbs bodyweight, make fairly steady progress in both intensity and strength (except for overhead stuff since the shoulder acted up), and have an agreement with the trainers to slap me down (i.e. remind me who I'm really competing with) when I start grousing about not keeping up with the 20-somethings. So I'm just going to keep trying new things and see where it takes me. I may have just found a limit that I have to work around, but work around it I will. If I can gain some skill/strength working on new things I win. That's all I can ask for -- better tomorrow than today.

In the meanwhile, I'm planning on continuing doing the shoulder exercises the PT gave me, as well as doing scaled versions of our local boxes WODs (the last advice the PT gave me was the "if it hurts don't do it" rule). We tend to follow main site programming so Fridays "Diane" was done with box-assisted HSPUs (DLs don't give the shoulder any problems as long as i keep form impeccable.) I'm operating under the assumption that keeping things moving and under *some* load is better than inactivity. I'm also doing KStarr's Mobility Wod shoulder routines.

But if some of that stuff is wrong, or if there's something else I should add to the mix for the next three weeks, please feel free to speak up.

-Paul

His recommendation is not only for an arthroscopic SLAP repair, but feels that the bicep tendon will never settle back into the groove in the humerus properly on it's own. He's recommending a bicipital tenodesis, which is detachment of the bicep long head tendon from the labrum, shortening it, and anchoring it to the humeral head with an anchor. This procedure will have to be done through a non-arthroscopic anterior incision between the deltoid and the bicep.

Needless to say I'm nervous about a procedure that removes something I only have one set of!

So, for the general community -- have any of you had a tenodesis performed? If so what has your post-surgery experience been, both recovery and resuming weight-bearing activity afterward? The Ortho is asserting that he's done a lot of these and I should be able to resume the activities I told him I was doing currently as well as what I was hoping to continue doing (Crossfit related, etc).

Grissim Connery
12-16-2010, 06:44 PM
this is interesting. i always had a gut feeling that kipping pullups were a huge factor in my shoulder issues, but with my limited kinesio knowledge, i figured that it had to be pressing motions causing the troubles.

i will admit that, when i was tired, i had many instances of letting my connective tissue and not so much my muscles take the brunt of the force in the bottom of the kipping pullup.

at a KB seminar several years ago, i asked steve maxwell what he thought about crossfit. he only really made 2 quick statements: he made a brief comment about the politics of it being as troublesome as the politics of the kettlebell community, and then he put a little more weight on his second statement about a lot of good athletes simultaneously ruining their shoulders and, subsequently, their potential. he was mainly referring to the kipping pullups. at the time crossfit was new and shiny to me, so i jumped in head first anyways.

that tidbit on biceps and curls is interesting. occasionally when i'm doing some rotator cuff work with dumbells at home, i'll do some curls because i feel a tight stretch in some tendon running through my anterior delt and running up my neck a bit. i don't like to stress it too much, but it feels nice to open up. would anybody recommend bicep curls as an actual shoulder stabilizing drill?

Andrew Wilson
12-16-2010, 06:57 PM
just doesn't have the same appeal as uncle rhabdo or puke the clown.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7356/crossfitantiagingtshirt.jpg

Andrew Wilson
12-16-2010, 07:03 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Darla Powell
12-16-2010, 07:17 PM
huuh... just doesn't have the same appeal as uncle rhabdo or puke the clown.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7356/crossfitantiagingtshirt.jpg

Lol! Can I steal this for my blog?

Andrew Wilson
12-16-2010, 07:18 PM
Lol! Can I steal this for my blog?

hahahaha yep

Jarod Barker
12-16-2010, 09:47 PM
http://decaol.tumblr.com/ bing!

Is this another one of your websites? The volume and quality of the information you collect is simply incredible. Seriously, you find a ton of really top notch info.

Jarod Barker
12-16-2010, 09:48 PM
Speaking of which, I saw that you got kicked off the CF forum in just 2 posts. I saw your second post was about improving your shoulder press following starting strength, but I'm curious, what was your first post?

Andrew Wilson
12-16-2010, 10:08 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Steven Low
12-16-2010, 10:27 PM
I still think SDHP does more damage per movement unit than kipping pullups, but since kipping pullups are performed waaaay more often in higher volume they do more overall damage.

But yeah.. what do I know

Derek Weaver
12-17-2010, 12:46 AM
Nice work Andrew. It was a proud day for me when I was banned from the comments. I left the forum voluntarily. It seems that it's almost a right of passage to get banned from CF in one form or another.

Ola Persson
12-17-2010, 01:17 AM
Crossfitters arguing their Games champion and Games Crossfitters are fitter than Olympic Decathletes. http://games2010.crossfit.com/blog/2010/07/profile-champion-male-competitor-graham-holmberg,698/


Thanks a lot, I feel a bit dumber just watching! The utter stupidity in that video tops almost everything I’ve seen coming from CF. I couldn’t help myself searching the CF board and apparently the group think is alive and well.

I found this gem (http://board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=880235&postcount=132)where someone actually tries to rationalize and excuse the moronic notion of CF “athletes” dominating in sports. Well if you don’t know the first thing about the difference between GPP and SPP maybe you should reconsider your occupation as a trainer (!?). Attaining the conditioning required for a sport like soccer is easy. However, to be able to dominate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2NHqSXftzU)you need talent and, even more important, time. A top soccer player in his late teens has at least 10 000 hours of practice, time spent developing skills and technique. Try substituting that with 10 min of spastic kipping and med ball cleans six days a week.

Wayne Riddle
12-17-2010, 02:38 AM
All I will say is I no longer do kipping pullups or SDHP. I value my joints.

Darla Powell
12-17-2010, 06:26 AM
LOL that was actually the 2nd time I was banned/eliminated from the messageboards. I've been meaning to drop by for a 3rd visit. The other post was:
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/484/24050991.png
(referring to Tony Budding's ridiculous over usage of scientific lingo with "broad time" "modal domains" "work capacity") Sounds like a UPS mission statement.

I was also banned from the Journal:
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9437/155w.png
LOL this was a well setup troll, pursued to thrash the kool aiders after this.

So I guess that's 3 bans

I heart this. :-) I remember I went to my second box - a well established one and the trainer had me do SDHP in the basics class. I told him I'd been having issues with my shoulder and did not feel comfortable doing them. He insisted that I do just to show me how the movement was in the core and not the arms. He didn't really care about what I was telling him. Maybe that is true of the movement but that doesn't mean I would do it correctly. Anyway, like an idiot, I did them.

I am waiting for my ban on the forum. I've been kind of skating to stay there with surreptitious uppercuts. Mwah ha ha.

Shane Skowron
12-17-2010, 06:36 AM
huuh... just doesn't have the same appeal as uncle rhabdo or puke the clown.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7356/crossfitantiagingtshirt.jpg

Incredible.

Geoffrey Thompson
12-17-2010, 08:46 AM
I am waiting for my ban on the forum. I've been kind of skating to stay there with surreptitious uppercuts. Mwah ha ha.

That would be unfortunate if it turns out to be the case, but if that happens it would be interesting to note that the barrier between Kool-Aid drinking and bannination is injury/surgery, if you catch my drift.

Andrew Wilson
12-17-2010, 09:23 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Arien Malec
12-17-2010, 01:18 PM
It's worth while pulling out this quote:

The CrossFit training effect, conditioning wise, only lasts 4 months like any other fitness problem, so unless they keep adding more and more random wods and strength work, the conditioning effect stagnates, or overtaining/injury takes place, you can't have a CrossFitter that will carry over to a sport completely unrehearsed, and dominate in a super skill sensitive sport just like football.

The notion that anyone could walk onto a soccer field and dominate without sport specific skill training and time on field is just..... It's just -- there are no words for how stupid an idea that is. It boggles the mind that anyone would ever say that.

Andrew Wilson
12-17-2010, 03:32 PM
It's worth while pulling out this quote:



The notion that anyone could walk onto a soccer field and dominate without sport specific skill training and time on field is just..... It's just -- there are no words for how stupid an idea that is. It boggles the mind that anyone would ever say that.

I was just looking in the CrossFit Journal about this, because its all over the place in it, but instead found this gem:
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8710/cfv2.png

Arien Malec
12-17-2010, 04:09 PM
Overtraining is caused by excessively intensive work and Crossfit is superior to other methods because it has higher intensity. There is no spoon. Those aren't the droids you're looking for.

Garrett Smith
12-17-2010, 04:30 PM
Excellent work, Andrew.

Andrew Wilson
12-17-2010, 04:32 PM
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8379/kipo.png

Andrew Wilson
12-17-2010, 05:09 PM
The Top 10 tips for building a successful fitness business through their company brand:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1516/lolnt.png
and #4 is not killing anyone . . . .:confused:

Darla Powell
12-17-2010, 05:30 PM
The Top 10 tips for building a successful fitness business through their company brand:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1516/lolnt.png
and #4 is not killing anyone . . . .:confused:

Yeah. You would think that should be bumped up a bit. Lol. :p

Andrew Wilson
12-17-2010, 05:35 PM
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5910/rhab.png

Andrew Wilson
12-17-2010, 05:52 PM
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7885/alkdgh.png


http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/7115/cracke.png

Brian DeGennaro
12-17-2010, 06:29 PM
They're on skin infections right now in the journal.

Ryne Clos
12-17-2010, 07:43 PM
Andrew, you shouldn't be surprised by CrossFit making rhabdo into a good thing - every ideology makes their greatest weaknesses into false strengths, so as not to expose their adherents to the truth about the system.

David Boyle
12-17-2010, 09:35 PM
Back in the day when I used to post on the CF boards.


http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=35676&highlight=mike+phelps

Darla Powell
12-18-2010, 06:59 AM
Back in the day when I used to post on the CF boards.


http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=35676&highlight=mike+phelps

Wow. A lot of hostility. I don't notice that amount of zealotry anymore. At least I don't think.

Arien Malec
12-18-2010, 09:08 AM
CrossFit making rhabdo into a good thing

I don't know that I'd go that far. The issue is more one of:

a) Glorifying "death before dnf", "men will die for points", etc.
b) Believing a myth of all out effort on a 3 day on, 1 day off schedule
c) Movements that are absolutely absurd (ghr situps, sdhp, etc).
d) Absolutely stupid mainsite programming
e) Stupid advice on scaling (can't do 30 muscle-ups? Do 120 pullups and 120 dips instead. Can't do 120 pullups? Do 120 jumping pullups).
f) 20% slop
g) Doing the movements before adequately training and preparing for the movements (high rep gymnastic movements before training shoulder strength and flexibility adequately).

The problem is that fixing all those issues would require fixing @F, so the reaction is to treat a serious issue as an incidental issue not related to the mainsite programming.

Steve Shafley
12-18-2010, 08:02 PM
I remember Dan John telling me about how he gave a talk about recovery and how important overall life balance was at one of the early CF certifications, and right afterwards GG got up and basically said the opposite.

Derek Weaver
12-18-2010, 09:31 PM
I don't know that I'd go that far. The issue is more one of:

a) Glorifying "death before dnf", "men will die for points", etc.
b) Believing a myth of all out effort on a 3 day on, 1 day off schedule
c) Movements that are absolutely absurd (ghr situps, sdhp, etc).
d) Absolutely stupid mainsite programming
e) Stupid advice on scaling (can't do 30 muscle-ups? Do 120 pullups and 120 dips instead. Can't do 120 pullups? Do 120 jumping pullups).
f) 20% slop
g) Doing the movements before adequately training and preparing for the movements (high rep gymnastic movements before training shoulder strength and flexibility adequately).

The problem is that fixing all those issues would require fixing @F, so the reaction is to treat a serious issue as an incidental issue not related to the mainsite programming.

Even more than fixing Cf is that it wouldn't have reason to really exist anymore. there wouldn't be anything else to distinguish it from other circuit training programs.

Teaching proper form, using actual progressions instead endless repetitions for substitutes, solid strength foundation, actual GPP (flexibility, joint mobility etc.) periodization. That's no different than what happens with Coach Somer's gymnastics kids, Alwyn Cosgrove's programming, Wendler, Cressey etc.

You're right. If you admit you're at fault with your methodologies, or lack thereof, and attempt to fix it, you've admitted you are no different than anyone else who gets results for their actual clients.

Andrew Wilson
12-19-2010, 01:10 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Matt Reilly
12-19-2010, 02:18 PM
Wow.... That was amazing!

Andrew Wilson
12-20-2010, 09:43 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Darla Powell
12-20-2010, 09:48 AM
Looks like Slappy got another one

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldqkcuuMt91qzax0lo1_500.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7356/crossfitantiagingtshirt.jpg

I am lovin' Slappy! :p

Andrew Wilson
12-20-2010, 01:52 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Justin Arnold
12-25-2010, 01:07 AM
get your elbows.... down?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YOpdDGcbTI

Andrew Wilson
12-25-2010, 10:49 AM
Wow

Steve Shafley
12-25-2010, 12:57 PM
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2277/thrusterhell.png

Apparently the Reebok/Crossfit connection isn't going to make things any better.

Arien Malec
12-25-2010, 04:43 PM
Fortunately, you aren't likely to break your wrists with technique plates, no matter how much you stick your tongue out.

20% slop?

Brian DeGennaro
12-27-2010, 11:18 AM
Something funny I just read from Wendler today on T-Nation's recent article:

(on leaving a a rep or two in the tank for 5/3/1 so you don't leave yourself with a training "hangover" as he puts it)

"As a side note, this is precisely how I handle my conditioning. Most of my conditioning is done without much intensity – I relax and just get a quality workout in and leave. Do this consistently enough, however, and your conditioning goes through the roof. "

Who'da thunk that? Stop short of failure so you can train more consistently.

Derek Weaver
12-28-2010, 03:45 PM
Pavel, and whoever else said it before him, nailed it years ago. Train as often as you can, while staying as fresh as you can.

Or you can just vomit on the regular and get IVs at the emergency room.

Brian DeGennaro
12-28-2010, 07:57 PM
Yeah, I remember it was Pavel. "Synthesized" a lot of info from various sources, including way back to the strong men of old. You never want to workout (i.e. work yourself out), you want to train and practice.

Surprisingly (or not at all), my strength skyrocketed when I left a few kilos or reps in the tank versus when I followed something like SS or something else.

Andrew Wilson
12-29-2010, 08:14 AM
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6299/cfg.png

The CrossFit Journal ladies and gentlemen

Andrew Wilson
12-29-2010, 08:48 AM
http://library.crossfit.com/free/video/CFJ_Glassman_DefiningCrossFit.mov

He mentions phd physicists, phd mathematicians, phd electrical engineers, rocket scientists; but not exercise physiologists or kinesiologists.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Derek Weaver
12-29-2010, 11:33 AM
http://www.fulton.k12.ga.us/school/CreekView/math_olympics/Olympic-Rings_grn.gif
I take it these Olympics don't count?

It's fun to watch those CF videos now. Why speak the truth when you can speak in big terms and not actually say anything at all?

Andrew Wilson
12-29-2010, 12:09 PM
“It’s a quantifiable approach to a finally well-defined notion of what fitness is. That is what CrossFit is.”

“CrossFit is the application of the fundamentals of Newtonian mechanics to human movement, something else that is kind of unique for us.”

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Steve Shafley
12-29-2010, 12:21 PM
Going to failure and working TOO hard, especially after you've got the basics under your belt tends to be a sub-optimal way to train for almost anybody.

This was the basis for the founding of the Power and Bulk community in 1999. Volume over intensity, intelligent and deliberate pursuit of goals vs dumb shit posturing. Signing up and showing up.

Brian DeGennaro
12-29-2010, 07:54 PM
Yeah, you want quality and quantity, intensity drops off a bit but it pays off in the long run. That and good coaching helps a lot.

Garrett Smith
12-30-2010, 05:10 AM
Yeah, you want quality and quantity, intensity drops off a bit but it pays off in the long run. That and good coaching helps a lot.
C'mon, Brian. A good coach only needs a stopwatch and the ability to yell at people for around 45 minutes straight. :p

Brian DeGennaro
12-30-2010, 06:11 AM
Man, I must be a terrible coach because I only use the stopwatch to time rests and my voice can't last yelling for 45minutes. I'm too gentle.

Peter Dell'Orto
12-30-2010, 06:14 AM
Who'da thunk that? Stop short of failure so you can train more consistently.

What? Train hard enough today to get better but not so hard that you can't train tomorrow? That's crazy talk. You'll never establish your own certification with that kind of attitude.
:D

Brian DeGennaro
12-30-2010, 06:46 AM
You guys are making me realize I'm such an underachiever. My sauce is too weak!

Shane Skowron
12-30-2010, 09:34 AM
CrossFit is the application of the fundamentals of Newtonian mechanics to human movement, something else that is kind of unique for us.”

Seriously, this is one of the funniest things Glassman has ever said. I was watching that video and feeling bad for the people just nodding their head in approval. The poor people hear the phrase "Newtonian mechanics" and think he's onto something just because it sounds fancy.

Tell me, how do you apply Newtonian mechanics to human movement? Do Newtonian mechanics not apply to other athletic pursuits?

Brian DeGennaro
12-30-2010, 09:50 AM
Everything I hear and read from Tony and Glassman is just so much fluff. It's like they looked for the most grandiose words and synonyms, and used them to make speeches and posts.

Andrew Wilson
12-30-2010, 10:00 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Andrew Wilson
12-30-2010, 10:36 AM
Seriously, this is one of the funniest things Glassman has ever said. I was watching that video and feeling bad for the people just nodding their head in approval. The poor people hear the phrase "Newtonian mechanics" and think he's onto something just because it sounds fancy.

Tell me, how do you apply Newtonian mechanics to human movement? Do Newtonian mechanics not apply to other athletic pursuits?

hahaha! when I saw those people nodding, my reaction was "OH NO, this is how North Korea started."

Matt Matijevich
12-30-2010, 10:43 AM
I thought this was a great comparison:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjCX8ude04&feature=related

Andrew Wilson
12-30-2010, 11:57 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Brian DeGennaro
12-30-2010, 08:27 PM
Someone should swap the audio from that and a Journal vid.

Christine Petty
12-31-2010, 12:26 AM
hahaha! when I saw those people nodding, my reaction was "OH NO, this is how North Korea started."

Gin bottle tributes to the Dear Leader to follow, no doubt.

Peter Dell'Orto
12-31-2010, 06:44 AM
Tell me, how do you apply Newtonian mechanics to human movement? Do Newtonian mechanics not apply to other athletic pursuits?

No, not yet it doesn't. It's still unique to Crossfit. Gravity is going to be a game-changer in sports when it finally catches on.

Andrew Wilson
12-31-2010, 09:28 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Brian DeGennaro
12-31-2010, 10:39 AM
Next thing you know we start our own Andro-Friday in this thread...

Justin Arnold
12-31-2010, 01:51 PM
I second that motion..

Blair Lowe
12-31-2010, 05:11 PM
I don't know Castro's DL but I thought it was in the 400's in the Dave Tate series.

Arien Malec
12-31-2010, 07:00 PM
Next thing you know we start our own Andro-Friday in this thread...

This thread is the high quality alternative and has huge influence in the wider anti-@F community. Let WGM corner the @F softcore; we can't compete.

Derek Weaver
12-31-2010, 07:51 PM
This thread is the high quality alternative and has huge influence in the wider anti-@F community. Let WGM corner the @F softcore; we can't compete.

Yeah, he's pretty much got the market cornered on that one. If we did it, everyone would be pissed. he does it and apparently he's got people sending him their pictures.

By the way, Andrew has done unbelievable work in this thread. Sustained mockery, disdain, sarcasm, actual science to back it up. Applause all around.

Brian DeGennaro
12-31-2010, 08:45 PM
So this is basically the glorified Couch thread now.

I just find it hilarious HQ claims CF is the most effective tool for GPP and produces form that is "good enough" yet the man behind the curtain still bastardizes a DL like any other tool on youtube (and the same goes for many CFers).

Andrew Wilson
12-31-2010, 08:52 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Derek Weaver
01-01-2011, 04:16 PM
Castro looked like he was having a very unpleasant experience while running.

I think it's going to be interesting when the injury rate shifts. I don't know anything about their obstacle course for acceptance into the Santa Monica SWAT, but I would guess most of their injuries were lower extremity with the occasional back injury.

When they have a series of guys on disability all from SLAP tears, they may have to re evaluate whether it's a good idea.

Andrew Wilson
01-01-2011, 06:13 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Andrew Wilson
01-01-2011, 08:08 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Some people just can't take their own advice:


http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_le7782f8OO1qfk3eho1_500.jpg

Justin Arnold
01-01-2011, 09:10 PM
If that text were what the whole community were actually about it wouldn't be so bad, really.


This is my big fear: if all goes according to plan I should be starting a municipal fire academy in a few months. I've been hearing about more departments incorporating crossfit into their training, though fortunately nothing concrete about the departments around here. At that point, due to the wankery inherent in crossfit (as rx'd anyway), I may get injured in a way I could have predicted, doing exercises not of my choosing.

Andrew Wilson
01-01-2011, 11:20 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Garrett Smith
01-02-2011, 06:27 AM
If that text were what the whole community were actually about it wouldn't be so bad, really.


This is my big fear: if all goes according to plan I should be starting a municipal fire academy in a few months. I've been hearing about more departments incorporating crossfit into their training, though fortunately nothing concrete about the departments around here. At that point, due to the wankery inherent in crossfit (as rx'd anyway), I may get injured in a way I could have predicted, doing exercises not of my choosing.
Keep your kips small, your weights scaled, your intensity moderate, and your form tight at all times...and you can avoid the classic @F crash-and-burn and probably out-perform most of the others in your class due to a stronger finish.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Only go all-out when you need to make a performance time for an evaluation. Other than that, go as easy as you can.

Maybe point out that all of the top CF Games finishers have now learned to go to a strength-biased program of the basic BB movements with short metcon finishers at the end.

Brian DeGennaro
01-02-2011, 09:17 AM
Garret's statements were my initial feelings about CF back in '05 in high school.

I did CF much of high school, but I cherry picked things that would help with sprinting and gymnastics (and it did) and I didn't exhaust myself because that's not a sport; never believed in exhausting myself until a meet or a hard track practice. Joined a CF gym, decided to drink some kool-aid and forego what I knew about training, and saw performance plummet.

Not leaving something in the tank until you absolutely need to is stupid with metcons and the metcons that are coming out these days are just silly. Who the hell does 105 L-Pullups in a workout?

Andrew Wilson
01-02-2011, 09:40 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Andrew Wilson
01-02-2011, 09:50 AM
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/397/slapy1.png

Andrew Wilson
01-02-2011, 09:51 AM
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/7516/slapy2.png
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/449/slappy3.png

Darla Powell
01-02-2011, 09:57 AM
I had my shoulder surgery on Tuesday. Turns out it wasn't as bad as we thought and the Doc gave me a 6 week recovery. I got lucky. Other Crossfitters might not be.

Andrew Wilson
01-02-2011, 10:00 AM
Mike Boyle predict CrossFit kipping pullups in 100 reps causing shoulder and elbow trauma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbQ2gjiXiAc)

Andrew Wilson
01-02-2011, 10:01 AM
I had my shoulder surgery on Tuesday. Turns out it wasn't as bad as we thought and the Doc gave me a 6 week recovery. I got lucky. Other Crossfitters might not be.

Thats really great to hear.

Justin Arnold
01-02-2011, 10:31 AM
Keep your kips small, your weights scaled, your intensity moderate, and your form tight at all times...and you can avoid the classic @F crash-and-burn and probably out-perform most of the others in your class due to a stronger finish.

If I end up in that situation, that's the plan. When questioned about why I may not be "trying hard enough", my intention was to reply that I'm using proper form to avoid injury.

Maybe point out that all of the top CF Games finishers have now learned to go to a strength-biased program of the basic BB movements with short metcon finishers at the end.

That wouldn't go over so well. Kinda like telling your drill instructor to shove it...

Chuck Kechter
01-02-2011, 12:05 PM
I :heart: this thread...

Wayne Riddle
01-02-2011, 04:01 PM
That wouldn't go over so well. Kinda like telling your drill instructor to shove it...

When I was doing WOD's with a CF "coach" (level I cert), I had zero problems saying "bullshit" on doing some of the workouts. Wish I would have done it more often.

Andrew Wilson
01-02-2011, 04:59 PM
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5236/rh1.png
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/6159/rhabp2.png
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/1903/rhab3b.png
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/166/rhab4.png

Andrew Wilson
01-02-2011, 05:00 PM
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3299/rhab5.png

Derek Weaver
01-02-2011, 05:50 PM
All of these screen shots have made me sad.

Justin Arnold
01-02-2011, 08:45 PM
When I was doing WOD's with a CF "coach" (level I cert), I had zero problems saying "bullshit" on doing some of the workouts. Wish I would have done it more often.

WHOLE different story when the "coach" is your PT instructor for a fire academy. The "drill instructor" phrase wasn't hyperbole.

Andrew Wilson
01-02-2011, 08:46 PM
Wait, I'm not done yet...

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/679/rhab6.png
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1901/rhab7.png
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1121/rhab8.png
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9400/rhab9.png

Andrew Wilson
01-02-2011, 09:13 PM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Derek Weaver
01-03-2011, 05:51 PM
Ahem. http://performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5207

It's my name and post starting the thread, but Gant deserves the credit for that jem.

Andrew Wilson
01-03-2011, 06:47 PM
Ahem. http://performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5207

It's my name and post starting the thread, but Gant deserves the credit for that jem.

hahahahaha Amazing!

Darla Powell
01-03-2011, 09:10 PM
Thats really great to hear.

Thank you.:)

Derek Weaver
01-03-2011, 11:17 PM
hahahahaha Amazing!

This is given me an idea... does any else have any more ridiculous videos like this? I'm going to make a CrossFit documentary.

Uh. Yeah.
http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html#Hilites (should drop down to seminar highlights)

Andrew Wilson
01-04-2011, 08:51 AM
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp7xm1BMqe1qbylvso1_500.gif

Justin Arnold
01-04-2011, 09:18 AM
If there is one way to piss off CFHQ, it's an attempt at intelligent discussion (without gin).

Geoffrey Thompson
01-04-2011, 09:37 AM
Very "open source".