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Pete Gordon
11-30-2010, 02:34 AM
I thought I'd fire up a thread about the ol' German Volume Training.

The net is full of info about it. Much i'm skeptical about. it's thought that the training program was used by German weightlifters as an offseason program back in the day.

It's thought that it works off 10 sets of 10 reps, once you achieve all 100 reps in, add more weight. So, after warming up, you may do 10 sets of 10 reps of 95kg squats.

Strangely there's a lot of rubbish being written about doing bench presses & stuff while doing this program. If it was used by offseason german weightlifters, I question if they would've worked so hard at bench pressing.

What is a more realistic approach? 10x10 squats twice a wk, (monday & friday) 10x10 sna pulls one day & 10x10 cln pulls on another day?

James Evans
11-30-2010, 07:46 AM
Off the top of my head it's a mass gaining programme and you run for a relatively short cycle. The cynical would suggest that it needs to be supported by better living through chemistry or you will be smashed.

I don't think the percentages are meant to be very high.

Day 1

Back Squat 10 x 10
Assistance 5 x 10-20

Day 2

Press (don't see a problem with bench) 10 x 10
Assistance 5 x 10-20

Day 3

Deadlift 10 x 10
Assistance 5 x 10-20

That's a basic template from a shitty textbook I have.

I've done this:

Back Squat @ 50% 10 x 10 (60 secs recovery)
60 secs
Deadlift @ 50% 10 x 10 (60 secs recovery)
60 secs
Push Press @ 50% 10 x 10 (60 secs recovery)
60 secs
100 BW Squats

I adapted it from stuff Twight had on his site. Surprising enjoyable but no way would I want to do this more than once in a blue moon.

John Walsh has been using something similar (Don Steel?) as he prepares for a push-pull meet.

Jarod Barker
11-30-2010, 11:00 AM
I think Poliquin had an article about this on Tnation. But.... it was mostly bench pressing and curls and tricep kickbacks. Kind of missed the point for weightlifting.

I can see how this could work though. Look at John Broz, 50 reps in a single workout. Or squatting 6 days a week. I don't think this is something you can self coach to yourself, but given the proper environment and a capable coach, I can see how this high volume work can be very productive. I think the key that is often left out in most articles though is periodization.

Say for instance, Poliquin's super compensation model. You work out twice a day with just crazy high volume. And you're going to be overtrained and want to die. And then you take a week off, and eat and recover like crazy, and BAM your body over compensates for the stimulus and you make a huge jump in progress. I think the hard part though is knowing when to take that week off. Too soon and you won't get the effect, too late and you've built up an overtraining debt that will take much more than a week to recover from.

Derek Weaver
11-30-2010, 02:29 PM
Pete,
There was a PMenu article on power lifting + weight lifting a while back. Something about how some of the old champs occasionally used the bench press in their training. Nothing wrong so long as you maintain overhead flexibility. May help, may not.

James,
This is in the same vein as Don Blue's old training. Not something I would personally recommend for most people.

Chad,
Poliquin wrote an entire book on this IIRC.

WRT when to back off. He notes that when you start to deal with some tendonitis, get a mild cold, have trouble sleeping. Essentially start going down the checklist of over reaching, you back off and allow the super compensation to occur.

It's then up to the athlete, if self coached, to take heed and do what's necessary. I don't do this well.

Donald Lee
11-30-2010, 02:51 PM
I did a version of German Volume training a while back. I think it's good for strength endurance.

Christian Thibs has his own version that is more geared toward preserving some strength.

Pete Gordon
11-30-2010, 07:06 PM
There really does seem to be a lot of bastardization of the program. I challenge YOU to google 'German Volume Training Weightlifting' & count how many things pop up with work that weightlifters (not weight lifters) come up. Not a lot. Play around with the key words, swap 'weightlifter' for 'snatch', you'll still find very little.

all this GVTraining with curls, decline chest presses & leg presses....pft...

Derek Weaver
11-30-2010, 11:47 PM
Pete,
I'll pass on doing the googling of GVT and the associated keyword swapping.

I personally want to throw up if doing more than maybe 6 reps of a compound exercise. I'd figure it would be quite easy to wear out the lower back doing 10x10 of even light deadlifts.

Setting up some sort of EDT pairing or even the strength circuits espoused by Thibadeau in the most recent T Mag system/program/ad copy would be better, IMO.

Also, that new set of articles is pretty good except for the need for Mag 10, Surge pre/intra/post workout etc. I mean, it's all relative, but it's better than some of the other drivel that has come from that site.

Pete Gordon
12-01-2010, 01:09 AM
I must admit I am somewhat attracted to the edy concepts

Ian Gallimore
12-01-2010, 12:25 PM
I prefer Dan John's variation based on Pavel's ladders - same total number of reps, done in less time, with more weight on the bar. My particular favourite variation is (2-3-4-5-6)x3 + (6-5-4-3-2)x2, so you really have 5x20 rather than 10x10, but with more weight on the bar than you would have done for 10x10. Rest between rungs is just the time it takes to rack the bar, take a couple of deep breaths, and unrack it again. I think Dan's versions is something like (2-3-5-10)x5.

Pete Gordon
12-01-2010, 01:16 PM
(2-3-4-5-6)x3

does this mean, with a 90kg loaded bar, you'd do a double, then a triple, then...the obvious three times? Then 6 reps, then 5 reps...then onwards for 2 sets? Sounds like somewhat of a better plan than 10 sets of 10 reps...that'd get pretty boring after a while!

Derek Weaver
12-01-2010, 03:28 PM
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/more_new_techniques_youve_never_tried

With KBs, but the concept remains the same.
2-3-5-10

Let's review my recent workout. With two 53-pound kettlebells, clean the bells once and press them overhead two times. Lower to the floor and rest for a few seconds. Clean the bells once again and press them three times overhead. Rest. On the next "set," press them five times, then briefly rest again. Finally, clean the bells and press them 10 times.

That's twenty repetitions, and not a bad workout by itself. I find myself squeezing hard on reps eight, nine and ten, but nothing's too terrible. I put the bells down, rested a while longer, and then started again at two.

Somehow I forgot about Ladders and Countdowns. I love both and was using them regularly before my current program of the last 12 weeks (anyone familiar with my jumping around, you read that right)

Jarod Barker
12-01-2010, 07:20 PM
Chad,
Poliquin wrote an entire book on this IIRC.

WRT when to back off. He notes that when you start to deal with some tendonitis, get a mild cold, have trouble sleeping. Essentially start going down the checklist of over reaching, you back off and allow the super compensation to occur.

It's then up to the athlete, if self coached, to take heed and do what's necessary. I don't do this well.

Nice, I didn't even know that. Thanks, I'll have to add that to my reading list. Poliquin has some really crazy stuff, but he gets amazing results out of his athletes. ...or at least he claims the results, but I can see the logic behind his programs.

James Evans
12-02-2010, 03:31 AM
He can take a woman to 12 pull ups in 12 weeks. Do not doubt Chuck's awesomeness.

I tell those who become certified by me that if they canít train a typical female client to do 12 chin-ups in 12 weeks, then they donít know how to train. Thatís how you can evaluate a good trainer. If they can get a female client to do 12 chins, theyíre a good trainer. If they donít know how to do it, then they donít know training. Period. One example is when I worked with the women on the Canadian National Ski Team in which the average number of chin-ups went from zero to 12 reps in 11 weeks. Again, this was a national sports team, and the simple reason they could not perform chin-ups was because they did not practice them, and their lower body was very well hypertrophied, which makes it harder.

James Evans
12-02-2010, 03:49 AM
Anyone interested in ladders should look at some of the stuff Shaf has posted. I think there was discussion on the forum a few years ago. I can stick an outline up (pinched from him) if anyone wants but it's his stuff so I'd rather he commented.

Derek Weaver
12-02-2010, 01:32 PM
Not Shaf, but I don't have a problem linking to a blog post he made about this a while back. Guess he posted this on Lyle's board, and I believe elsewhere. I would guess he doesn't have a problem with a backlink here.

http://beyondstrong.typepad.com/shafsblog/2007/05/a_primer_on_lad.html

Dave Van Skike
12-03-2010, 01:45 PM
Not Shaf, but I don't have a problem linking to a blog post he made about this a while back. Guess he posted this on Lyle's board, and I believe elsewhere. I would guess he doesn't have a problem with a backlink here.

http://beyondstrong.typepad.com/shafsblog/2007/05/a_primer_on_lad.html

Shaf's primer on ladders is one of the best syntheses and real world applications of low fatigue high frequency lifting that i've seen. anyone wanting to try sheiko or some such would do well to first spend 6-8 weeks doing ladders with say, clean and press and back squat. you'll learn more about how to regulate your training than anything you'll get from a book.

another area ladders work exceptionally well is rehab from injuries and learning new movements.

Brian M Smith
12-13-2010, 08:56 AM
funny the GVT program is being discussed here, I was just thinking about it this week.

Personally I think its BS for weightlifters. Its obviously structured to add mass (if paired with a mass-gain diet) but I doubt it has very much carryover to strength gains required of a higher weight class as its basically just a hypertrophy program. Also, the thought that germans (or any) country use this to go up a class is somewhat comical if you think about it (more likely is lots of meat, pasta and peanut butter along with "medication").

A better program IMO would be something like Greg's 10x3 squats, or poliquins "functional hypertrophy" which is essentially a 3rm front squat followed 10sec later by 3-5reps of back squat, x however many sets (I think its 5?). Or of course, the old standard "5x5"


On the topic of bench pressing, its been said that Dmitry Klokov (RUS, 105kg) does PL style bench, squat, deadlift in the morning, and the olympic lifts in the afternoon session.

ado gruzza
12-19-2010, 02:36 AM
The real German Volume Training is done by European Powerlifters since 80s.

Older teamate in my team used it but the version of Poliquin is very "marketing fitness and bodybuilding style" and, come on, it doesnt work! Too low frequency, too low work on fondamental lifts. Do you think Olimpic Weightlfters train once every 5 day muscles areas??
I think they train those 2 times a DAY!


This is a more realistic and original and non fitness market version:

Day one:
Squat 10 x 10 50%
Bench press 10 x 10 50%

Day two:
Deadlift 10 x 10 45%

Day three:
Squat 10 x 9 55%
Beanch press 10 x 9 55%

Day four:
Only deadlift assistence

Day five:
Squat 8 x 8 57,5%
Bench press 8 x 8 57,5%

Day six: (should be saturday)
Deadlift 10 x 9 50%

The second week is 10 x 9 and 10 x 8 with 2,5% extra weight.
There are many version but they look like this.