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Joshua Straiton
12-09-2010, 10:47 AM
Hello all,
This is going to be a long post, but my first post on here so I'm trying to get it right.
Let me just preface this post with the fact I love olympic weightlifting, and if doing hardcore O-lifting training didn't aggravate an old injury(lower vertebrae stress fracture), I would be training olympic lifting full time.

For some reason, crossfit style training causes zero aggravation in my back. So, I am currently training with intentions to compete in the crossfit games. I understand that crossfit as a methodology is sometimes discouraged here, but I do enjoy it and I think that crossfit as a sport has some interesting implications.

Now that that is out of the way, I have a question about my programming. I just finished a cycle with an insane amount of volume, but I indeed was making serious progress and strength gains, along with lowering my times in WODs. It looked like this:

Sunday: Morning-Heavy Deadlift wod
Evening-Mainsite wod

Monday: Morning- Mainsite wod
Evening- Two WOD's programmed around my weaknesses

Tuesday: Morning- Olympic Lifting, 5-3-1 Back Squats
Evening-Crossfit mainsite wod, then two short wods after five minutes rest, skill work

Wednesday: Morning- Mainsite WOD
Evening- Two self programmed WODs, interval rowing/running

Thursday-Rest/mobility

Friday- Morning- Max Snatch/Clean and jerk, 5-3-1 deadlift, then short crossfit wod
Evening- Fun outside WOD with logs or tree climbing ect

So I understand this is alot of volume, but it worked for me, I have been keeping it up for two months without injury, but I decided to do a deloading cycle to focus on strength. I am following the performance menu workouts, and it is insane how quickly my speed has increased with the olympic lifts. I'm not mentally drained, and I am enjoying the 9 week squats cycle programmed on the cite so far.

All of that to get to my question, I want to program Olympic lifting every day for my next cycle, in other words i want to continue following catalyst athletics but I also want to program ten crossfit WODs a week and am having trouble fitting it all together. I know it is a ridiculous amount of volume, but as long as i see progress there is no reason the change. Any suggestions on how to separate this sort of strength everyday focused program while training five days a week with room for interval training(my weakness) and alot(maybe too much) crossfit?

If you need more info on recovery habits/nutrition/stats just ask.

Andrew Wilson
12-09-2010, 04:13 PM
This is very interesting.
I would argue the following based on my modal analytical scientific assertions displayed in "Just Reread the CrossFit Journal on Metabolic Conditioning".
And taking and a look at the CrossFit Games format, it is always
1) some kind of hip extension strength, whether static or explosive, being snatch, CJ, deadlift, an overhead squat, air squat, sprint, burpee
2) a heavy design of pullups and muscle ups and rope climbs
3) random use of pushups or handstand push ups
4) they're going to add a pool (someone's going to shallow water black out)

So with this said, I would dare to say, that you could prepare for the Games without doing a single "WOD" at all between then and now, because it actually be a limiting factor in restorative adaptation. How dare I just say that. I would argue that a sportsman with a very powerful vertical jump, strong squat, strong technique in CJ & SN, with great local muscular endurance in pullups and pushups, with a well established VO2max that transitioned into middle distance track interval work; that all of these training effects would positively carry over into a greater WOD performance than 10 WODs per week. That would be very very interesting. So I would commend that you are on the right track with OL, and I throw out there that OL + 400m or 800m track work + pullups and pushups would have a much much more positive effect than doing the WODs... hmm or quite possibly do a decathlon program if interested. That would be a fascinating quasi case study

Joshua Straiton
12-09-2010, 04:24 PM
Interesting Andrew. I like the idea, and it would be a great experiment that I would love to test out with athletes haha. I mean I love Olympic lifting, and I would be doing that if it didnt hurt my back after a long cycle.
The only concern I have is the mental aspect, and the fact that we talk on this cite about the only thing that is going to make you better at something is doing that "something." So I would make the argument that doing crossfit workouts does in fact make you better at doing crossfit workouts, the same way deadlifting will make you better at deadlifting. And like all things, crossfit needs supplementation, more importantly a huge strength base, and a structured strength program, along with running/inerval/endurance training, and most importantly, the WODs themselves. I totally understand that the mainsite WODs are in no way tailored to my specific needs as an athlete, but its hard considering im in school and training so frequently, and am biased to not program wods with my weaknesses. So I use the WODs as tests, and the mental aspet of a crossfit workout is difficult to match with anything other than a crossfit workout, in that way it is unique. Just like how an o-lifting workout requires a different state of mind than entering a crossfit wod.

With that said, your idea is very interesting and it peaks my interest. I may experiment with it myself and see if I maintain any progress.

Andrew Wilson
12-09-2010, 04:37 PM
Interesting, the first 4 months of this may spark some ideas:
http://www.cathletics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83479&postcount=11

I never really understood why crossfitters never used 1RM % in their wods, but that may help. 400m-800m training is a great conditioning filler if you ever want to focus just on strength work without any wods.

Joshua Straiton
12-09-2010, 04:47 PM
Okay, so that was an interesting thread. I see the concepts behind your post on the link you sent me. SO basically I would program based upon the mx chart, and follow the first four months, and your suggestion would be supplementing 400-800 meter sprints as conditioning? And using the weight charts and taking percentages of my 1rm's to feed them into these "metcons?"

I am intrigued, but I'm not sure if I buy that it will result in faster wod times. SOmething useful to experiment with before the games come around.

Andrew Wilson
12-09-2010, 06:35 PM
Okay, so that was an interesting thread. I see the concepts behind your post on the link you sent me. SO basically I would program based upon the mx chart, and follow the first four months, and your suggestion would be supplementing 400-800 meter sprints as conditioning?

Using something like the first 4 months; or if solely doing strength work and no metcons, using a 400m or 800m training program as a conditioning supplement to metcons


And using the weight charts and taking percentages of my 1rm's to feed them into these "metcons?"

Exactly for instance: Fran 21-15-9 with 95 pounds and say your 1RM thruster is 185 pounds. I'm not sure that is an accurate thruster max. But 95pound Fran is basically 51% of the 185 1RM thruster. When really a 21rep max is 60% 1RM, so adjusting the weight based on your 1RM is really going to stimulate strength increase because its relative to your 1RM. Versus doing the 95pound is rarely going to increase strength because its not large enough of a load and not relative to your maximum strength.

In that other post I'm suggesting doing Fran at 25-25-25 or 20-20-20 with weight relative to your 1RM, instead of 21-15-9 with a weight that isn't relative to your 1RM. 25 rep max is 57.5% of 185 1RM which is 105 pounds. Say you do this twice a week for a month: so you're doing Fran with a heavier weight, and with more reps. So you're stimulating strength increase + local muscular endurance. Now say you've done it twice a week for 3 weeks in a row, and this 25-25-25 Fran time which was originally slower than a typical 95# 21-15-9 Fran, is decreasing as the weeks went by. So before the 2nd month you retest your 1RM thruster, say it increases by 5 pounds and start doing 20-20-20 Fran with 62.5% of 190. So that'd be doing Fran 120 pounds 20-20-20. At first its slow, then as you keep go through the weeks, the time decreases. Third month you decide to do Rx'd Fran: 1) you're doing 45 reps instead of 75 and 60 reps with the other style, so you've develop local muscular endurance well capable of handing the 21-15-9 thrusters, 2) 95 pounds is 25 pounds lighter than what you're use to. The idea is to use progressive resistance as any other strength training but really the only difference is there is pullups in between each set in the case with Fran, in the case with Diane handstand pushups between sets. So the movement itself is strengthen/can progressively increase, but honestly I just think the circuit training is just a bad concept. My opinion separating them and doing them on their own is better.

Gant Grimes
12-10-2010, 09:12 AM
Sunday: Morning-Heavy Deadlift wod
Evening-Mainsite wod

Monday: Morning- Mainsite wod
Evening- Two WOD's programmed around my weaknesses

Tuesday: Morning- Olympic Lifting, 5-3-1 Back Squats
Evening-Crossfit mainsite wod, then two short wods after five minutes rest, skill work

Wednesday: Morning- Mainsite WOD
Evening- Two self programmed WODs, interval rowing/running

Thursday-Rest/mobility

Friday- Morning- Max Snatch/Clean and jerk, 5-3-1 deadlift, then short crossfit wod
Evening- Fun outside WOD with logs or tree climbing ect


I don't think you have enough volume. In fact, this strikes me as somewhat lazy.

Jim Glover
12-10-2010, 12:02 PM
I don't think you have enough volume. In fact, this strikes me as somewhat lazy.

That's awesome I think I'll have to double up on my workouts.

Joshua Straiton
12-10-2010, 12:20 PM
I don't think you have enough volume. In fact, this strikes me as somewhat lazy.

haha. Yea I know it's a lot. But I'm young (18) and have good nutrition habits, good mobility habits, and I am making progress. Significant progress if you count decreasing times on the same workouts, along with strength gains. So why change especially if i enjoy it ya know?

And Andrew, I'm sure I would see strength gains, but I'm not sure it would make me better at metcons. Because like you said, training them separately (running intervals/metcons different from strength work) is more productive and I understand that. But I don't do metcons to get stronger, I do strength training to get stronger already separate from my metcons. I do metcons, simply to get better at metcons, which can be programed infinitely. I understand that technically every human movement constitutes a metabolic response, but I mean metcons as simply a variety of metabolic functional activities, whether specialized (running/rowing intervals) or triplets/couplets, whatever. The only reason I use the main page is because I don't have time to program that many specific metcons, and in that way the crossfit's site is convenient but definitely not my best option.

Emily Mattes
12-10-2010, 02:38 PM
You must have known people were going to tell you you're doing too much, and you must have already come to conclusion that you were going to ignore them. So why make this thread at all? What do you think anyone could possibly contribute to your Totally Kick Ass Program?

Joshua Straiton
12-10-2010, 03:18 PM
You must have known people were going to tell you you're doing too much, and you must have already come to conclusion that you were going to ignore them. So why make this thread at all? What do you think anyone could possibly contribute to your Totally Kick Ass Program?

I'm sorry if I came off that way. Not trying to ignore anybody, or to preach that my program is "totally kick ass." Just looking for some discussion and some input into whether people think with less volume I would make more progress, or if they would arrange workouts in a different order. I'm also curious on some longer endurance needing to be incorporated, but am not knowledgeable about its effects on strength performance. Just curious, and I'm sorry if I sounded like a jerk in my posts, not my intent.

Emily Mattes
12-10-2010, 03:35 PM
In your defense, I was being kind of a bitch. But if you're making progress, and you think your progress is significant, and when people say it's too much volume you're like "Nah, I'm cool," then why ask for input?

What are your lifts now? This will also help determine how much of an emphasis you need on strength.

Look, you've got a couple of strength workouts in there, but you also have no point for them to recover which is going to effectively fuck up your gains. A "heavy deadlift WOD", if that's a deadlift-related metcon, is not a strength workout. A 5/3/1 squat and 5/3/1 deadlift day does not a strength training program make, especially when you're planning on scuttling recovery by adding in a bunch of other metcons the rest of the day. Are you planning on doing any upper-body strength work?

What is the point of doing two WODs in one session? If you have specific weaknesses that need to be addresses, whether they're form or strength related, how is doing them in an all-out conditioning format going to allow you to target them?

You're making progress now because you're male and 18 and extremely difficult to kill in that state. That doesn't mean you're making the best progress you could possibly make.

If I were you I would do three solid strength-training days a week. If you do a WOD on those days, make it a short one, and do it immediately after your strength-training session. If you do one of those long WODs, do it once a week, and have a rest day afterwards. Otherwise have your "long" sessions be something like going running rather than billions of pull-ups for hours.

Jarod Barker
12-10-2010, 03:40 PM
I'll just throw this out here in regards to not doing CF programming and still being good at CF....

There was an OCS candidate I met, who was previously enlisted, and he served with Force Recon. In talking about training, he said that he pretty much just lifted heavy and ran. Then, like the naive idiot I am, I said to him, "oh you should try Crossfit, it'll blow your workouts away." He, being a kind and mature Marine, took me up on my advice, I think just to humor me. He went to the local CF affiliate, and they gave him Fran his first night.

Anyways, I'll cut to the chase. He did Fran in under 2 minutes. Everyone remarked to him how they wished they had brought a camera, asked him to come back and do it again, and apparently he got so much attention for it that he actually did not want to return. When I caught up with him, he remarked at how easy the 95 pound thruster was and asked me how does anyone get stronger using such light weight. My stupid answer, "you just go faster."

Just to give you an idea of his fitness level, I'll also make the point to mention that he could do reps with a 225 military press, and when we ran our PST, he ran the 3 miles in under 15 minutes, crossed the finish line not even out of breath and immediately lit a cigarette.

The point I'm trying to make is that obviously he had more than adequate strength from his weight lifting (not weightlifting) and PT with the Marines, and his cardio/endurance base was more than adequate as well likely due to running hard with a pack on uneven terrain among other things like O-courses and room clears, etc. So, you're getting solid advice here. You CAN improve your fitness level by working the parts separately.

I, like you, thought that I was going to improve my fitness level by stacking WODs and adding strength sessions, so I was basically working out 2-3x a day. Strength workouts early, and metcons at night. Now that I've stopped that... my strength has shot through the roof. Take the advice you're getting here seriously. Less work, more recovery = more progress.

Joshua Straiton
12-10-2010, 04:42 PM
Okay Emily, thanks again, and yes I understand.
My stats:
Height: 5'3"
Weight: 160lbs
Snatch: 205
Clean and Jerk: 235
Overhead Squat: 235
3RM Push Press (Closest thing to strict press, I know they aren't nearly the same)- 235
Deadlift- 415
Back Squat- 345
Front Squat- 305

And Chad, my strength has been increasing, just not nearly as fast as when I was O-lifting strickly. I began powerlifting three years ago, then found olympic lifting and fell in love. Crossfit is fun, but I would be strickly o-lifting if I didn't injure my back about a year back, but I'm working on range of motion and physical therapy type things to help my back. But I want to compete, and crossfit is great, and no matter the volume I have no back pain. My volume is ridiculous, and I know that. Your example of that marine is awesome and unarguable. I must admit my weakness is cardio specifically, I have good muscular endurance, running anything more than a 400 is horrible.
I will take advice. I am currently on a rest cycle, that I am enjoying SO much because the speed on my o-lifts increased instantaneously. There is nothing better than a great clean and jerk.... But thanks for the example Chad, I may throw some distant run in frequently until I can bare them.

Joe Hart
12-10-2010, 08:04 PM
Gant Grimes has a nice little template that works strength and has some conditioning. If you surf for Starting Strength and CF Justin Lascek has some good stuff.

8weeksout.com has some interesting stuff for conditioning.
I may have missed it but what are your goals? Are you doing sports other than OLY and PL?

Program for your goals.

If CF turns your crank more power to you but you need to give the body some time to recover, yes I know 18 and bullet proof. I CFd for a while (shudder) and got some wicked tendonitis in the elbow and shoulder. I don't now on both accounts.

I think way back when, when CF was budding they said something about getting out and doing stuff not just WOD'in.

Blair Lowe
12-11-2010, 12:31 AM
OL + 400m or 800m track work + pullups and pushups would have a much much more positive effect than doing the WODs

Didn't seem to workout for Josh Everett. Early on, yes but not anymore. Of course, Josh may be suffering from wear and tear these days.

One of the things about the games is how quickly you can recover from the ton of abuse you go through. Say what you want, but the ability to have a lot of workout capacity and be able to recover helps.

Another thing that helps is a long career before of athletic activity. Take for example, x athlete and then figure how long they have been doing that and then what they were doing before that as a young'n or kid. Many of those badass crossfitters come from established athletic backgrounds before the 1 or 2 years of crossfit under their belt.

Joshua Straiton
12-11-2010, 05:21 AM
One of the things about the games is how quickly you can recover from the ton of abuse you go through. Say what you want, but the ability to have a lot of workout capacity and be able to recover helps.

Another thing that helps is a long career before of athletic activity. Take for example, x athlete and then figure how long they have been doing that and then what they were doing before that as a young'n or kid. Many of those badass crossfitters come from established athletic backgrounds before the 1 or 2 years of crossfit under their belt.

I agree with this, the recovery aspect is important. Of course you never fully recover, but doing a lot of work does help to increase you recovery abilities as long as you aren't overtraining. But that kind of training should be closer to the games for me, maybe 8 weeks out with a taper at the end. For now I may focus on olympic lifting and shorter metcons to get stronger.

But to Joe, SS is not specialized enough, and I know I'm young, but I've been training solid for five years, and for two years before that doing stupid things but exercise none the less. My goal is to compete and win in the crossfit games.
I've looked at Gant 's program, its pretty awesome but I'm not sure it's for me. I might rethink it though, we'll see. Thanks for the replies everyone

Jon Pechette
12-11-2010, 07:21 AM
This is very interesting.
OL + 400m or 800m track work + pullups and pushups would have a much much more positive effect than doing the WODs... hmm or quite possibly do a decathlon program if interested. That would be a fascinating quasi case study

I agree that having a few people train with a decathlon program and compete in the CF games would be very interesting, I'd love to see it. As far as the OL + track work + pullups and pushups, it might prepare you well enough to get to the Games, but if you want to win I'm not so sure. Blair made a good point mentioning Josh Everett. He was good when there was less volume, but when they upped the volume he suffered.

I heard pretty much the same thing in an interview with Ben Smith. He is definitely someone to look up; 20 years old and easily one of the strongest people in the CF community. He said he had primarily been lifting heavy and running in preparation for the '09 Games, and he didn't do so well (he placed somewhere in the 60s maybe?). In preparation for the 2010 Games, he added more volume and did a lot better (8th at the Games). He described his training as something like this:

Morning:
Running or Rowing
+
CF WOD

Afternoon/Evening
OL or PL
+
CF WOD

Not sure about specifics, but you could try looking them up.

Andrew Wilson
12-11-2010, 09:27 AM
Didn't seem to workout for Josh Everett. Early on, yes but not anymore. Of course, Josh may be suffering from wear and tear these days.

One of the things about the games is how quickly you can recover from the ton of abuse you go through. Say what you want, but the ability to have a lot of workout capacity and be able to recover helps.

Another thing that helps is a long career before of athletic activity. Take for example, x athlete and then figure how long they have been doing that and then what they were doing before that as a young'n or kid. Many of those badass crossfitters come from established athletic backgrounds before the 1 or 2 years of crossfit under their belt.

Fascinating, do you have any information I can look into on this?

I would disagree. For example my current decathlon program is as follows:
WRT: 2400m
WT: Weight Training 10RM squat x3, 10x10 Pushups with 10sec rest between x 4 series (400 total), 10x10 pullups with 10sec rest between sets x 4 series (400 total)
and 26mi of weekly running

Monday: WRT+RE, 4x100m, 4x200m, 4x100m
Tuesday: WT, Swim
Wednesday: WRT+RE, 3x150m hills
Thursday: WRT+RE, 6x1000m
Friday: WT, Swim
Saturday: 4x2km outdoor, 6x50m jumping run
Sunday: Recovery

2nd week
Monday: WRT+RE, 2x300m, 500m, 4x600m, 2x300m, 3x40m high frequency
Tuesday: WT, Swim
Wednesday: WRT+RE, 2x300, 4x1000, 500m, 300m, 3x40m high frequency
Thursday:WT, Swim
Friday: WRT+RE, 5x20m HS, 3x200m, 2x400m, 500m, 400m, 2x100m
Saturday: 6-8km
Sunday: Recovery

3rd week
Monday: WRT+RE, 5x30m acceleration, 3x150m, 1x200m, 3x600m, 4x100m
Tuesday: WT, Swim
Wednesday: WRT+RE, 2x60m HS, 3x300m, 100m, 2x300m, 100m, 300m
Thursday: WT, Swim
Friday: WRT+RE, 4x60m zig-zag, 5x400m, 3x60m zig-zag
Saturday: WRT+RE, 4x100m sled(10kg, 3x) 3x100, tap take-offs
Sunday: Recovery

All of this is high stimulation on the nervous system and needs strong ability to recover muscularly. 400m and 800m is even deeper.

BTW Josh, I forgot to mention that in Dr Siff's Supertraining and Dr Verk's Special Strength Training a Practical Manual for Coaches, there are both chapters that cover the circuit training methods they used to train Olympians.

Joshua Straiton
12-11-2010, 10:10 AM
BTW Josh, I forgot to mention that in Dr Siff's Supertraining and Dr Verk's Special Strength Training a Practical Manual for Coaches, there are both chapters that cover the circuit training methods they used to train Olympians.

Thanks Andrew I'll check this out.


And Jon, I'm interested in trying to find Ben Smith's training habits. The man is incredibly strong, and this year at the games he placed 8th like you said. If i find anything out I will surely post it.

Jon Pechette
12-11-2010, 10:45 AM
Here is Ben Smith's blog, not sure if it will help, though.
http://crossfitodu.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2010-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2011-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=22
(link wfs)

I can't really seem to identify any specific structure. It seems to be lift heavy and do plenty of CrossFit. He doesn't seem to post too often, so I'm not sure if this is an accurate representation of his programming.

Emily Mattes
12-11-2010, 04:49 PM
Josh, have you spoken with your Oly coach (I'm assuming you have a coach) with regards to devising a strength or strength maintenance program, and then adding in metcons like you'd find on Crossfit Football? You're totally correct that with your lifting background you need something more sophisticated than SS, and I think at 18 you could probably push yourself with volume beyond 5/3/1 and still see gains (provided you aren't doing three metcons a day craziness).

Another option would be investigating a Westside-style program combined with Crossfit metcons afterwards. Chris Mason wrote an article for the Crossfit Journal on combining Crossfit and Westside. A Westside template is extremely flexible and can basically require as much volume as you'd like from it, and it's pretty easy to integrate more conditioning work from it. I've been having great success from it myself and I don't have nearly the training experience that you do. An extra benefit is that Westside programs tend to emphasize a lot more posterior-chain developing exercises, which can be tremendously helpful for people with bad backs. And adding in box squats, reverse hypers, sled pulls, etc have done a LOT for my Olympic lifting, as I found that area to be severely undertrained by my Oly program (though given your PLing background that may not be an issue).

Joshua Straiton
12-11-2010, 06:19 PM
Josh, have you spoken with your Oly coach (I'm assuming you have a coach) with regards to devising a strength or strength maintenance program, and then adding in metcons like you'd find on Crossfit Football? You're totally correct that with your lifting background you need something more sophisticated than SS, and I think at 18 you could probably push yourself with volume beyond 5/3/1 and still see gains (provided you aren't doing three metcons a day craziness).

Another option would be investigating a Westside-style program combined with Crossfit metcons afterwards. Chris Mason wrote an article for the Crossfit Journal on combining Crossfit and Westside. A Westside template is extremely flexible and can basically require as much volume as you'd like from it, and it's pretty easy to integrate more conditioning work from it. I've been having great success from it myself and I don't have nearly the training experience that you do. An extra benefit is that Westside programs tend to emphasize a lot more posterior-chain developing exercises, which can be tremendously helpful for people with bad backs. And adding in box squats, reverse hypers, sled pulls, etc have done a LOT for my Olympic lifting, as I found that area to be severely undertrained by my Oly program (though given your PLing background that may not be an issue).

Hey Emily,
Sadly, I do not have a coach. I have read every book I could get my hans on and have read articles on the web. Been reading for years about it all. I have Greg's book, some dvd's but that is about it. I'm in college so it would be hard to consistently have a coach while I'm there. I've recently gotten involved in a crossfit gym down the road from me, but my Olympic lifting knowledge/experience greatly surpasses the coaches there (sad I know).

But I have read the article your talking about and would love to incorporate westside into my training, but I have no access to to reverse hyper/back extension machine/even a box for box squats at my school gym. And I'm not exactly sure how to program them in, I mean right now I'm focusing on my Olympic lifting and Squatting. I want to build up my posterior chain so ill be doing good mornings and SLDL's and a lot of core work to keep my spine (which naturally has a large curve) in a neutral position. I wish I could do reverse hypers everyday, and sled work, and glute work because i'm pretty sure my weaknesses there are adding to my back problems. I've been doing the Mobility wods and working seriously on opening up my hips and adding flexibility to my hamstrings.

I know I need a coach. Its a number one priority, and I probably have developed bad habits with my lifts just from being self taught, but I was so intrigued when I learned then a few years ago that I had to continue. I've done the best I can. I'll try and post video's on here soon of me working up to heavy singles so you guys can pick me apart http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Joshua Straiton
12-11-2010, 06:20 PM
And Jon I checked out your link, thanks a lot man some good stuff on his blog.

Jon Pechette
12-11-2010, 06:34 PM
WRT: 2400m
WT: Weight Training 10RM squat x3, 10x10 Pushups with 10sec rest between x 4 series (400 total), 10x10 pullups with 10sec rest between sets x 4 series (400 total)
and 26mi of weekly running


Sounds like a solid training program. Very high volume of running, I'm sure Josh Everett's training program did not consist of anywhere near that mileage.

How much time do you take between each pushup and pullup series? Also, are the pullups kipping or deadhang? Either way that's a ridiculous amount of pullups, especially if they're deadhang. 400 pushups isn't too bad, but 400 pullups? wow.

Brian DeGennaro
12-11-2010, 06:45 PM
Josh, where in college are you at?

Emily Mattes
12-11-2010, 06:55 PM
But I have read the article your talking about and would love to incorporate westside into my training, but I have no access to to reverse hyper/back extension machine/even a box for box squats at my school gym. And I'm not exactly sure how to program them in, I mean right now I'm focusing on my Olympic lifting and Squatting. I want to build up my posterior chain so ill be doing good mornings and SLDL's and a lot of core work to keep my spine (which naturally has a large curve) in a neutral position. I wish I could do reverse hypers everyday, and sled work, and glute work because i'm pretty sure my weaknesses there are adding to my back problems. I've been doing the Mobility wods and working seriously on opening up my hips and adding flexibility to my hamstrings.

I know I need a coach. Its a number one priority, and I probably have developed bad habits with my lifts just from being self taught, but I was so intrigued when I learned then a few years ago that I had to continue. I've done the best I can. I'll try and post video's on here soon of me working up to heavy singles so you guys can pick me apart http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Luckily, while box squats and reverse hypers and sled pulls are awesome, they are not totally and completely necessary. Westside's a template, so you can pretty much incorporate whatever you like into it. For instance, for your ME squats, you could do back squats, front squats, Zercher squats, overhead squats, back squats to a bench (instead of a box), pause back, front, overhead, Zercher squats, etc etc. Deadlifts are similarly malleables. Bands and chains are excellent additions, but your program isn't going to fail without them. I'm not using bands or chains in any of my ME or DE work yet, as I simply haven't reached the point where I feel I'm not making progress in my non-band, non-chain barbell movements.

I also do overhead work--press, push press, or jerks--on my DE or ME upper days instead of bench work.

For glute exercises, there are a ton you can do that aren't glute-ham raise or reverse-hyper dependent--sliding ham curls, barbell glute bridges, hip thrusts, single-leg hip thrusts, etc. Pull-throughs, a totally awesome exercise, can be done with cables if you don't have access to bands (and once those get too easy, bands on EliteFTS are less than $10 a piece, so you could get a heavy one to work with).

For programming, this is definitely not the "ideal" program, but this is what I do and have been able to recover from OK:

ME Lower:
Work up to heavy snatch single (Broz-style)
Do regular Westside ME Lower day

ME Upper:
Work up to heavy clean/C&J single (Broz-style)
Do regular Westside ME Upper day

DE Lower:
Work up to heavy power snatch single (Broz-style)
Regular DE Lower day--you wouldn't be able to do box squats, but could do free squats for your DE squats.

DE Upper:
Work up to heavy power C&J single (Broz-style)
Regular DE Upper day--using jerks or push-presses instead of speed bench (I use overhead presses, but that's because my OHP is disproportionately weak compared to my jerk and push press).



I mean, you can also throw in pull work on your dynamic lower days instead of deadlifts, stuff like that. Keep kind of an open mind about being flexible with the program.

Joshua Straiton
12-11-2010, 07:09 PM
Josh, where in college are you at?

I'm at UConn Brian. I'm actually going to try and get myself into the athletic gym, because I am very much an athlete and I'm sure I could utilize the olympic platforms just as well as any athlete in that gym. The student gym works, but my only olmpic bar is bent, and they yell at me when I drop weights (which I do anyway, and will continue to do until i'm kicked out). I might send the athletic director a letter.

And Emily, that is an awesome program, I like the programing. I do upper body strength work that I forgot to mention originally, push presses/jerks/pushups/pullups/MU's/ the works. Right now Im doing the CA russian squat cycle that just ended. I'm going to finish that and then I may use your basic template to introduce a background strength program to which I will start slowly adding metcons (not a ridiculous amount, I promise http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif haha) But my goal is to compete and to do well in the games this year, for which I must be stronger. Strength is my priority at the moment, and I want to snatch 250 and clean and Jerk 300 by the times the games come around(if i qualify that is). But I very much appreciate the insight and I've been interested in the conjugate system for a while, and I will likely experiment with your template after this cycle is done.

Brian DeGennaro
12-11-2010, 07:14 PM
Petition for it, I know that's what I had to do here at Syracuse for it. It's very much worth it to lift in good facilities. The S&C coaches there aren't a bad bunch from what I have heard either. Where is home at for you?

Joshua Straiton
12-11-2010, 07:25 PM
Petition for it, I know that's what I had to do here at Syracuse for it. It's very much worth it to lift in good facilities. The S&C coaches there aren't a bad bunch from what I have heard either. Where is home at for you?

Home is Danbury CT, so I'm close. I'm actually an athletic training major, so I'll be dealing with some experienced people as I go through my years at UConn. I should try to petition for it, I'm just not exactly sure how to go about it, have any advice? How'd you do it?

Brian DeGennaro
12-11-2010, 07:35 PM
I figured you were in that program, UConn has a good program for athletic training and S&C. I simply asked the head S&C coach here, I told her my situation (training as a weightlifter, no adequate facilities within the nearby areas, and such) and told them I am training to compete at a National level in weightlifting. I just demonstrated courtesy and competency.

By the way, Gary Valentine has a weightlifting club in Wilton just south of your hometown. He's a good coach, so if you wanted input on your lifts, he's a good guy.

Joshua Straiton
12-11-2010, 07:42 PM
I've heard great things about Valantine, I've just never had quite enough cash to commit and the drive every day would have been rough. Maybe I'll send him an email to see if I can come into te gym one day.
But I will definitely speak to the strength and conditioning director when I get back from winter break. I would love to compete nationally in weightlifting ahh. I need some coaching and to keep maintaining my back so I stop having issues. It been good for a long time, but whenever I try strict weightlifting cycles it feels like its going to give after two weeks of so. But ive been trying to strengthen my glutes and work on flexibility. We'll see how my current cycle ends up.. But thanks for the advice Brian.

Brian DeGennaro
12-11-2010, 09:54 PM
A video of your lifts would lend us a better idea as to what is going on with your back, either with your technique or your mobility.