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Mark Fenner
12-11-2010, 04:08 PM
Hi folks,

So, I'm a little slow sometimes. But, I did some searching here and so recommendations for TrueProtein. A quick Google-fu and voila, I found this:

http://www.trueprotein.com/custom_product.aspx

Mix your own protein with way too many options.

Now, way back when, I knew which proteins to take morning, noon, night, pre-/pari-/post-workout, etc. But, since I've spent several years on basically one protein brand (Don Lemmon's "Know How Nutrition" Protein), I forgot all the details. I'm going to go back through some stuff and try to construct a few options. Note, I'm looking this because I'm looking to reduce my protein costs (and my wife has started having shakes several morning so we're consuming at closer to 1.5x).

I'm thinking of two "cost levels" and two (maybe three) "timings". Cost: "minimal" (i.e., El Cheapo but supports training) and "biggest bang for the buck" (i.e., for the Value Supplementer). Maybe, for the hell of it, "Hot Rod" ('nuff said; of course, trying to give "the optimal" blend is certainly futile. So, screw that.). Timing: General (good all around), Near Workout, not-Near Workout. I think not-Near Workout and General might end up being close enough to merge. Anyway, I'm going to be digging back into this over the holidays. And, hopefully have something put together by the New Year.

Anyone interested in sharing their thoughts? Good sources to check out would also be welcome (off the top of my head: Lyle, Berardi, some T-Nation stuff, some general stuff by Cressy and Baggett). Please feel free. I'll put the final results back in this initial post.

Best,
Mark

sarena kopciel
12-11-2010, 06:40 PM
As for protein choices, I say eggs, meat, fish......real food !

Mark Fenner
12-12-2010, 06:59 AM
As for protein choices, I say eggs, meat, fish......real food !

While certainly closer to ideal, balancing out time and convenience (of preparation and portability), cost (protein can be expensive, but grass-fed, free-range, wild caught can be even more so), and variety (sure, bulk eggs and canned tuna will do in a pinch).

Of course, this is also an issue of quantity. If you are gunning for 100g/day, 4 eggs (25g), 1 qt of milk (30g), .5 lb. fish (40g) or meat (45g) or chicken (50g) will get you very close. If you are aiming for 300g/day, you'll have to step it up a notch. Doubling each of those: 8 eggs, 2 qts, and 2 1lb servings of solid flesh is a pretty hefty food intake and you're in the 200g/day ballpark.

But anyway, your vote -- and alternative opinion on protein consumption -- is noted, though it's not a novel concept, ignores the fact that this is the "Supplement" (not the "Whole Food Living" forum), doesn't address the question (non sequitur), and is certainly not going to effect the project. In short, it's a grade A troll.

*sigh* Are we losing our signal-to-noise ratio?

Best,
Mark

sarena kopciel
12-12-2010, 08:56 AM
OK point taken and we each make our own choices based on a multitude of factors.
As for the forum, sorry I hit "new threads" and didnt notice that. My bad.

Mark Fenner
12-12-2010, 09:04 AM
OK point taken and we each make our own choices based on a multitude of factors.
As for the forum, sorry I hit "new threads" and didnt notice that. My bad.

Well, it's my bad too. I shouldn't be a snippy jerk. I didn't notice that you have a large number of posts and are part of the community. You were making a bona fide point; I was thinking "intentionally starting a side argument".

But, there is an upside. You made me rethink, specifically, the "workout window" supplementation because I hadn't thought about one of the good alternatives for awhile: chocolate milk.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/an-objective-comparison-of-chocolate-milk-and-surge-recovery.html

Again, sorry for being snippy.

Best,
Mark

Samuel Hughes
12-12-2010, 09:24 AM
I have used TP for years. I tend to change up what I get in hopes that something makes an obvious difference, an occurrence which hasn't happened. That being said, http://www.trueprotein.com/Product_Details.aspx?cid=22&pid=6841, is a great price for a good protein for during workouts. If you need it to taste good, grab some of their flavoring kits. For non-workout, I'd go with a blend. Common blends are some micture of whey, casein, and egg white protein. http://www.trueprotein.com/Product_Details.aspx?cid=31&pid=534 is pretty standard, but by all means create your own if you have special needs (glutamine, extra Leucine, etc). The ability to add things like these are what make TP worth it. There are tons of discount codes out there for 5% off, you are welcome to use mine: slh332.

Just for general knowledge (I don't like admitting that I know this stuff but I do...) in order of speed of absorption: Whey/casein hydrolysate>Whey>Egg>Casein. Add leucine to things if you are not eating enough protein in general.

Arien Malec
12-12-2010, 09:49 AM
I wouldn't sweat it; it's not going to make a big difference. If you want to sweat it, here's the source: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-protein-book

Mark Fenner
12-28-2010, 07:49 AM
So,

After much consternation, re-reading lots of workout/protein related stuff including Lyle's series (the book looks interesting too):

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/what-are-good-sources-of-protein-wrapping-it-up.html

I've come to the conclusion -- not novel -- that most of the detailed discussion on specific types of protein is so overblown as to be comical. Sam noted that TP has two blends that seem to be baseline and economical ("Team Skip" $10/lb and "Fast Recovery" $7/lb). This is better than "marketed" products that I encountered. I'm not sure how it compares to, say, GNC. You can also "hand mix" these on your own for a slight savings. Sam also mentioned the recession special protein.

Darryl Shaw
12-29-2010, 04:53 AM
Strength athletes in regular training require 1-1.2gPRO/kg/d so in most cases a regular diet will provide more protein than you need without the use of supplements.

Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3356636)

Mark Fenner
01-01-2011, 07:13 AM
While that study (and studies like it) provides an interesting set of data points, they don't provide real insight. I'll leave the limitations as an exercise for the reader with some answers provided in the link below.

Here's Lyle's take on daily requirements:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/protein-requirements-for-strength-and-power-athletes.html


Here's a quote from Lyle that paraphrases Tipton and Wolfe:

We donít know how much protein is required to optimize all of the potential pathways important to athletes


That basically sums up our collective scientific knowledge of strengthening, conditioning, and nutrition. We have a ludicrous number of reductionist studies that loose most meaning when placed back into the context of reality. Arguing from individual scientific publications (in S&C, nutrition, and some other fields as well) to actions in the real world for real people is frequently fraught with peril.

Best,
Mark

Darryl Shaw
01-02-2011, 03:42 AM
While that study (and studies like it) provides an interesting set of data points, they don't provide real insight. I'll leave the limitations as an exercise for the reader with some answers provided in the link below.

Here's Lyle's take on daily requirements:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/protein-requirements-for-strength-and-power-athletes.html


Here's a quote from Lyle that paraphrases Tipton and Wolfe:


That basically sums up our collective scientific knowledge of strengthening, conditioning, and nutrition. We have a ludicrous number of reductionist studies that loose most meaning when placed back into the context of reality. Arguing from individual scientific publications (in S&C, nutrition, and some other fields as well) to actions in the real world for real people is frequently fraught with peril.

Best,
Mark

Lyle says strength/power athletes should aim for a protein intake of 3.3 g/kg/d yet the current (4th) edition of Clinical Sports Nutrition states that the maximal protein requirement of elite athletes is ~1.6g/kg/d.

Who to believe...... the guy selling the fad diet books or one of the most authoritative texts on sports nutrition around?

Mark Fenner
01-02-2011, 12:02 PM
Lyle says strength/power athletes should aim for a protein intake of 3.3 g/kg/d yet the current (4th) edition of Clinical Sports Nutrition states that the maximal protein requirement of elite athletes is ~1.6g/kg/d.

Who to believe...... the guy selling the fad diet books or one of the most authoritative texts on sports nutrition around?

I get your point. I really do. I'm a trained scientist. I love science. I look for scientific evidence and reasoning whenever possible. We're each free to gather evidence from difference sources, analyze and weight that evidence given our experience and the reliability of the source, and make our conclusions.

I guess we have different perspectives on Lyle's credibility. If I want a five minute answer, I'm very satisfied looking to Lyle for advice. If I wanted to assess your recommendation, I'd have to take a ton of time looking at the credibility of that textbook, the research reviewed to reach that conclusion, etc. That would be a general waste.

If I care, the method of resolution is simple: go on a baseline training program for 4 weeks. Consume 1.5g/kg/d. Assess results. Take 2 weeks to re-normalize. Go on baseline training for another 4 weeks. Consume 3g/kg/d. Assess results. Compare consumption 1 and consumption 2. Compare dollars out of pocket. Compare life satisfaction. Make decision.

Done.

Best,
Mark

Steven Low
01-02-2011, 06:17 PM
n=1 .... go!

Darryl Shaw
01-04-2011, 04:05 AM
I get your point. I really do. I'm a trained scientist. I love science. I look for scientific evidence and reasoning whenever possible. We're each free to gather evidence from difference sources, analyze and weight that evidence given our experience and the reliability of the source, and make our conclusions.

I guess we have different perspectives on Lyle's credibility. If I want a five minute answer, I'm very satisfied looking to Lyle for advice. If I wanted to assess your recommendation, I'd have to take a ton of time looking at the credibility of that textbook, the research reviewed to reach that conclusion, etc. That would be a general waste.

I'm not questioning Lyle's credibility it's just that in this instance there's no evidence to support his recommendation.

If I care, the method of resolution is simple: go on a baseline training program for 4 weeks. Consume 1.5g/kg/d. Assess results. Take 2 weeks to re-normalize. Go on baseline training for another 4 weeks. Consume 3g/kg/d. Assess results. Compare consumption 1 and consumption 2. Compare dollars out of pocket. Compare life satisfaction. Make decision.

Done.

Best,
Mark

The experiment you describe and others like it have been done many times and the results consistently show that athletes require a protein intake of 1-1.8g/kg/d.