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Charlie Vassallo
01-02-2011, 06:24 PM
Hi All,

Been lurking here and reading a ton of info. Awesome forum.

Just got a few questions with IF.

I'd like to give it more of a go.

My current schedule is this.

6am - wake up and run
8-4 - work
6pm - train
7:30-8 - Post Workout meal
10-11 bed

Now what type of fast would I be looking at with this schedule?

6am - up and run
12-1pm - Meal 1
4 - Preworkout meal - Meal 2
6pm - train
7:30 - 8pm - Meal 3 and 4
10 - 11 bed

Gives me about a 14 hour fast and 8 or so hours of fed state.

This is okay? Or should I be going a different route.

My main concern is the no breakfast after the morning run on the mornings I do it on which is two/three times a week.

Derek Weaver
01-02-2011, 07:41 PM
It's pretty easy, don't fast on the days you run.

It's eating, then it's not eating. You can toy with it however you want to. I prefer Eat Stop Eat myself. Easier to go one day without food than it is to deprive myself on the regular 5+ days for half the day or more.

Arien Malec
01-02-2011, 08:14 PM
What are your athletic goals? Where does the running fit in your training plan? What are your aims with IF?

Charlie Vassallo
01-03-2011, 12:23 AM
Overall fitness is the athletic goal.

Running is something I do to stay in shape for soccer - as recently started running to train for half-marathon/ultras.

As for IF, hoping to use it wisely to aid in shedding the last 10-12 pounds that I want off.

Ben Byram
01-03-2011, 02:12 AM
Martin Berkhan at Leangains knows his stuff about IF. Check out his Leangains guide which I'm sure would be helpful...

http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

Tons of info on his site.

Charlie Vassallo
01-03-2011, 06:58 AM
Thanks for the link. Very informative.

One question.

In the post workout meal is it good to use Protein Shake/Carbs and then eat a full meal an hour or so later or just eat it all at once?

Arien Malec
01-03-2011, 08:19 AM
Martin suggests eating real food. As for the plan, I would suggest focus. Concentrate on the last 10 lbs; training for an ultramarathon on top of fat loss would be brutal. Cutting out the running would be the best plan.

One setup that might work for you with the running:

4 off days/week: 17 hr fast; 7 hr feeding window, low carb, high protein, hypocaloric (maintenance - 10-20%)
3 training days/week: shorter run, break fast with a small protein + carb meal; fast until 2pm, break fast with a two small high protein meal, workout, large carb + protein meal; aim for isocaloric or slightly hypercaloric (maintenance + 0-10%)

Only you can tell if that drives you into the ground.

Charlie Vassallo
01-03-2011, 10:08 AM
Can someone provide a typical day of eating isocaloric and hypocaloric for me please?

Arien Malec
01-03-2011, 11:58 AM
We aren't going to know exactly what Martin does until he writes his book, but I've been doing the following:

Assuming 2800 calories = maintenance:

Off days: eat ~2300 calories, high protein, low carb, remainder fat. Martin recommends making the first meal the biggest; I do the last meal biggest so I can eat normally with the family.

On days: eat 2800-3000 calories. Since I train in the evening, first meal is about 300 calories very high protein, second meal is about 3-400 calories, with some fruit, after training meal is big :-), meat and root vegetables for me, mostly.

Charlie Vassallo
01-03-2011, 12:02 PM
Do you follow Paleo or you just eat clean?

Sweet Potatoes are allowed then?

Jane Michel
01-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Off days: eat ~2300 calories, high protein, low carb, remainder fat. Martin recommends making the first meal the biggest; I do the last meal biggest so I can eat normally with the family.

On days: eat 2800-3000 calories. Since I train in the evening, first meal is about 300 calories very high protein, second meal is about 3-400 calories, with some fruit, after training meal is big :-), meat and root vegetables for me, mostly.

Have you experimented with not eating for 11+ hours after training? If so, how did that work for you?

I'm curious because I've bastardised the protocol by training at 7am and usually eating the first meal only 11+ hours later, and am wondering how much this affects recovery, muscle gain, and fat loss.

Sweet Potatoes are allowed then?
You could try doing it with and without sweet potatoes to see how they affect the dropping of your last few pounds.

Derek Weaver
01-04-2011, 03:15 PM
Do you follow Paleo or you just eat clean?

Sweet Potatoes are allowed then?

Sweet Potatoes are fine. It's hard to hit your necessary carbohydrate numbers if you're eating strict Paleo. I would no longer recommend a strict Paleo diet if you have a high activity level, like yourself.

Alicia,
Martin has had a post or two about training in the morning. he has some BCAA recommendations and has noted that his clients have done well following his guidelines. I've followed this myself at times and have felt good so long as I stay hydrated and caffeinated. Others may not deal with the caffeine as well, especially in a fasted state.

His site is much easier to navigate now and has all the information on this pretty accessible.

Charlie Vassallo
01-04-2011, 08:53 PM
I need to read up on the fasted training especially in the am if I go for my run. I want to look into taking some BCAAS and according to Martin he goes with Purple Wraath.

As for sweet potatoes, I guess I'll have to experiment and go from there. And yes, I agree, its a ton of veggies/fruit to get the carb intake needed for high intensity workouts.

Today for example.

Morning Run - 35 minutes
Run to CF - 15 minutes
5/3/1 program plus CF WOD
Run home - 15 minutes

So I have to eat a ton but not over due it.

Jane Michel
01-04-2011, 09:31 PM
Martin has had a post or two about training in the morning. he has some BCAA recommendations and has noted that his clients have done well following his guidelines. I've followed this myself at times and have felt good so long as I stay hydrated and caffeinated. Others may not deal with the caffeine as well, especially in a fasted state.


Hi Derek, are there posts about breaking the fast only 11+ hours after training? I have read his protocols but might've missed something if you say there are posts about this.

And BCAAs - yeah I just started experimenting with it last month and have found it excellent in helping control cortisol.



Charlie - sounds like you're doing heaps of work..................... how long have you been doing this?

Derek Weaver
01-04-2011, 11:47 PM
Alicia,
I don't remember seeing anything in the 11-12 hour range for breaking the fast, but you can more or less figure out where to go and how from the information he's got up there.

I'm a little perplexed how you're going 11+ hours from training to eating though. Are you working out at 6 am or earlier, then eating at 5 pm or later?

Either way going off of the sample from Martin's Website (http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/early-morning-fasted-training.html)
Early morning fasted training

Here's a sample setup for a client that trains early in the morning and prefers the feeding phase at noon or later.

6 AM: 5-15 minutes pre-workout: 10 g BCAA.
6-7 AM: Training.
8 AM: 10 g BCAA.
10 AM: 10 g BCAA
12-1 PM: The "real" post-workout meal (largest meal of the day). Start of the 8 hour feeding-window.
8-9 PM: Last meal before the fast.

... Simply mix 30 g of BCAA powder in a shake and drink one third of it every other hour starting 5-15 minutes pre-workout....

If you were to follow that same every other hour schedule, you'd be at or around 50 grams of BCAA on training days. Pretty extreme, and would likely call for tabs due to cost.

I would email Martin to see his take on it.

Jane Michel
01-05-2011, 03:05 AM
Derek I've seen Martin's protocols and know that what I'm doing is quite different, which is why I said I am doing a bastardised version of it.

What I was asking is whether anyone has experimented with following his protocols for a period of time, and also not following them for a period of time by continuing to fast 11+ hours after training, and what difference between the two in terms of effects on recovery, muscle gain and fat loss were noticed.

Charlie Vassallo
01-05-2011, 03:18 PM
Hi Derek, are there posts about breaking the fast only 11+ hours after training? I have read his protocols but might've missed something if you say there are posts about this.

And BCAAs - yeah I just started experimenting with it last month and have found it excellent in helping control cortisol.



Charlie - sounds like you're doing heaps of work..................... how long have you been doing this?

I just started IF this week. Feels good thus far.

As for my workload, since the training for some 30kms started, I'm doing that routine 3x a week.

Today was.

5/3/1
Strength Work
CF WOD

No run - off day for run.

Tomorrow

15 minute run to gym
5/31
Strength Work
Snatch Work
15 HIIT on rower
15 minute run home

Jane Michel
01-08-2011, 07:26 AM
Keep posting how you're going with it Charlie. I usually get into an overtrained state after about 2-3 weeks of CF WODs and will be interested to see whether your schedule plus IF is sustainable.

Charlie Vassallo
01-09-2011, 07:51 AM
Keep posting how you're going with it Charlie. I usually get into an overtrained state after about 2-3 weeks of CF WODs and will be interested to see whether your schedule plus IF is sustainable.

So far so good.

I've put in three runs this week on top of my 5/3/1-Strength work. Two days I did the CF WOD because it was relatively short/intense one and felt good.

Saturday I just did the WOD - which involved running.

Sunday I just went for an hour run.

So far so good.

Not sure I'm losing weight yet though.

But I feel good.

Jane Michel
01-09-2011, 02:40 PM
Sounds good then :)

Were there any changes made to your schedule? And did you add in the BCAAs?

Charlie Vassallo
01-09-2011, 09:40 PM
No real changes as of yet.

I haven't run in the morning before work yet because sometimes I don't fall asleep right away and don't get enough hours of sleep.

So instead. I fast. Eat at about 1-2. Then run at about 4 to the gym. Workout. Run home. And continue eating.

No BCAAS YET. Haven't found one I like.

Got some I want to try just wanting for shipment.

Charlie Vassallo
01-18-2011, 05:36 PM
Not sure the weight is falling off just yet, but I do feel great.

Strength is good if not better.

Energy is awesome.

Overall feeling is really good. No bloating. A couple days though I've been super hungry and wanted to just smash food.

Energy on the long runs is really good to. So, I'd say, so far so good.

Today.

5/3/1 Squat
Box Squat 5 x 5
Dynamic Effort Deadlift
Sled Pulls 50m x 4 with 4 plates
Assistance Work
1000m row
Stretch and done

Feels awesome. No loss of energy either.