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Jacob Rowell
01-11-2011, 06:38 AM
Given the way general discourse is headed around here, namely the CF bashing and (more importantly) injury discussion, what would you recommend generally to existing CrossFit affiliates to head off these more common injuries. SLAP tears seems to be the injury du jour, but it seems like some folks here scour the CF boards more than I do and may be aware of other common injuries.

NOTE:
I've been running a CrossFit affiliate for about 4 years. We have about 200 members. I've seen one SLAP tear in my time, which is one too many.

Keeping in mind the things below, what would the PTs/internet gurus propose change or initiate, specifically, to movement selection, screening procedures, and overall programming?

1) CrossFit won't disappear overnight, no matter how badly some people would like it to.
2) If it does, there will still be people doing the same things - trust me, I've see much worse stuff going on in many other gyms, conventional or non conventional.
3) Any changes made to curriculum would have to apply more or less to everyone at the gym. The group class structure is central to the business model of most affiliates.
4) Suggestions have to be practical.

We've been going through asking ourselves the same questions, and making corrections since we've been around. I've seen most of what this message board has had to offer, and certainly picked up good information, but I thought it would be appropriate to ask the question more directly.

This board was at one time a wealth of knowledge, and a place where many CrossFit folk would come to learn something. I see Cathletics as having a huge role in addressing strength issues in CF affiliate programming, leading to more structured, informed methods, and I see you guys as having the ability to continue that role. No one owes any information to myself or any other affiliate owner, but there seems to be some real and general concern for the rhabdos and torn labrums of the world.

Thanks.

Steve Shafley
01-11-2011, 08:37 AM
In no particular order:

1. Implement a screening or initial evaluation process each new member has to go through. Something is better than nothing. Gray Cook's FMS is getting a lot of press lately, and is easy to learn and implement.

1a. Alternative WODs for those with orthopedic issues, or with problems that the screen shows, or whom may be in special populations.

2. An intensive period of instruction on the basic "slow" lifts for strength AND other movements frequently used. I like Rippetoe's movements from SS, except I would sub the high bar squat for the low bar squat for assorted reasons I am not going to get into. The NorCal S&C "On Ramp" concept is going in the correct direction.

3. Eliminate all variants of cleans and snatches from all metcons. Implement an "Olympic Lifting Basics" class for those interested in it for the sake of training variety or competition.

4. Require a certain number of dead hang pull-ups to be a requirement for kipping pull-ups for non-Crossfit games participants. For Games competitors, proper instruction and programming for the kip and butterfly kip is essential.

5. Implement a standard warm-up and cool-down.

6. Eliminate the GHD sit-up.

7. Implement site-specific programming based on the needs of your client population. Despite protestations to the contrary, the WOD has been pretty much random since WOD #1. These were appropriate for the original group of Crossfitters, maybe, but not for your clientele.

8. Require professionalism from your trainers.

Andrew Wilson
01-11-2011, 08:52 AM
In no particular order:

1. Implement a screening or initial evaluation process each new member has to go through. Something is better than nothing. Gray Cook's FMS is getting a lot of press lately, and is easy to learn and implement.

1a. Alternative WODs for those with orthopedic issues, or with problems that the screen shows, or whom may be in special populations.

2. An intensive period of instruction on the basic "slow" lifts for strength AND other movements frequently used. I like Rippetoe's movements from SS, except I would sub the high bar squat for the low bar squat for assorted reasons I am not going to get into. The NorCal S&C "On Ramp" concept is going in the correct direction.

3. Eliminate all variants of cleans and snatches from all metcons. Implement an "Olympic Lifting Basics" class for those interested in it for the sake of training variety or competition.

4. Require a certain number of dead hang pull-ups to be a requirement for kipping pull-ups for non-Crossfit games participants. For Games competitors, proper instruction and programming for the kip and butterfly kip is essential.

5. Implement a standard warm-up and cool-down.

6. Eliminate the GHD sit-up.

7. Implement site-specific programming based on the needs of your client population. Despite protestations to the contrary, the WOD has been pretty much random since WOD #1. These were appropriate for the original group of Crossfitters, maybe, but not for your clientele.

8. Require professionalism from your trainers.

All of this.

Arien Malec
01-11-2011, 09:09 AM
Sensible scaling. In particular, almost everything on this list needs to be removed:

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/faq.html#Substitutions0

Andrew Wilson
01-11-2011, 09:30 AM
Sensible scaling. In particular, almost everything on this list needs to be removed:

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/faq.html#Substitutions0

Yeah using RX'd weight and scaling is a huge huge problem also. And the 10 year problem could have been fixed simply with:

So using the chart:
2RM~95%
3RM~92.5%
4RM~90%
5RM~87.5%
6RM~85%
8RM~80%
9RM~77.5%
10RM~75%
15RM~70%
20RM~62.5%
21RM~60%
25RM~57.5%

Arien Malec
01-11-2011, 09:42 AM
Note that this is addressing injuries in the context of Crossfit.

If the goal is a good fitness program aimed at "ordinary folks" who want to get "fit" (feel stronger, better looking, better CV for health and performance), you'd want to change a lot more. (It would probably look like: weight training program with decent programming + programmed finisher + good mobility work).

Sara Fleming
01-11-2011, 10:17 AM
Steven addressed a lot of good points.

I coached at an affiliate for over a year and have rehabbed a few CF injuries in my current practice. I only have my weightlifters perform Olympic lifts now and that cured a lot of problems almost immediately. Instead, we utilize sandbag cleans, heavy kb swings, and tire flips for weighted hip extension.

My suggestions would be:

1. Plan out your programs such that the same exercises are consistently addressed at a variety of intensities to enhance both strength and muscular endurance. Pick a core of 3-6 exercises that you address EVERY week for at least a 2-3 month period.

2. Undulate intensity and volume on a weekly basis, incorporate low intensity workouts for your regulars at least one a week.

3. Be sure that your programming appropriately addresses all planes of movement, pushing/pulling, extension/flexion, anterior/posterior chain, and upper/lower body. This is harder to do than one might think. Especially when using weights that aren't heavy enough to require that one appropriately recruit the proper muscles. The posterior chain, in my experience, gets left out in the cold a lot as a lot of folks compensate with the quads.

4. Have an alternative "basics" workout available for every workout you program and do not bombard beginners with too many random exercises. It takes a while to develop proper recruitment patterns and coordination, especially in your average beginner.

5. Smart scaling: Scaling power cleans with a barbell to power cleans with PVC pipe is not an appropriate way to scale. Think about what the workout is supposed to challenge: Is it hip opening? Is it shoulder stability? Etc. There are many exercises that can accomplish the same goal while satisfying the need to be less complex.

6. Don't run the timer. People are naturally competitive. Challenges are fun to run every once in a while, but have your daily training lead up to a biweekly or monthly challenge. Sacrificing form for reps on a daily basis is the largest contributing factor to injuries, plateaus, and imbalances.

As a trainer/coach, it is most important that you keep your people injury free and able to function in a better capacity in their daily lives. Its easy to keep it fun and motivating, but also safe. Most folks just want to get better at something and have some sense of autonomy in what they are doing. Make the goal something other than time and you can accomplish that.

Dave Van Skike
01-11-2011, 10:25 AM
Ban Underarmour shirts and Faux Hawks. These are grave safety concerns.

Jacob Rowell
01-11-2011, 10:32 AM
Shaf,

An excellent list. I've seen the FMS, but that's a good reminder. I see there's one of their seminars within driving distance soon, I'll make sure to get to it.

Sara:

Thanks. Good programming suggestions.

Steven Low
01-11-2011, 02:45 PM
The most important thing is always always always always emphasize technique over time in any activity

I'd personally chop some of the movements out altogehter like SDHPs and stuff

edit: I knwo you're supposed to go for form over speed.... but there always seems to be some slop. The slop is what will get you injuerd....

Todd Rehm
01-12-2011, 05:04 PM
Shaf and Sara made great suggestions, and like Steven Low, I would kill the SDHPs.

John Sheaffer has a pretty good write up on his suggestions over at strengthvillain.com (not wfs, ugly design but some good content).

Patrick Donnelly
01-12-2011, 07:21 PM
If the goal is a good fitness program aimed at "ordinary folks" who want to get "fit" (feel stronger, better looking, better CV for health and performance), you'd want to change a lot more. (It would probably look like: weight training program with decent programming + programmed finisher + good mobility work).

This. CrossFit is complete and total overkill for normal people.


Dave had some good points too.

James Evans
01-13-2011, 09:24 AM
Excellent thread.

A tempering of the no surrender culture. You have to get a balance between manning (or indeed womaning) up and backing off.

Don't be afraid to pull a client from a workout. Don't be afraid to kill a workout if it's going to shit. Drop stuff that clearly isn't appropriate.

I had a conversation with Andrew Stemler (first UK affiliate) several years ago where I said that CF hustled participants into biting off more than they could chew - Be Brave, Grab that Bigger Kettlebell, direct quote from the front page - and he fully agreed. Check ego in at the door.

I really like the stuff Rutman programmes.

Tom Rawls
01-13-2011, 06:20 PM
Suggestions to remedy crossfit?

What's next--redesign the Edsel? The Tacoma Narrows Bridge?

Stephen Flamm
01-14-2011, 07:00 PM
Regarding injury avoidance:

1. Screen all clients in basic movement assessment and structural balance.
2. Address unbalance first, particularly in the shoulder/scapula.
3. Teach the basics and require steps. If you cannot perform a strict pull-up, do not perform kipping pull-ups. If you cannot properly rack a front squat, do not perform thrusters.
4. Balance in programming, particularly between strict vs. kipping volume, as well as horizontal pushing vs. horizontal pulling.
5. Accept that some isolation movements - even those moving small loads very slowly over a small distance - have a place in a sound training program.
6. Do not exceed 60 minutes of high-intensity conditioning in any given week.
7. Demand full range of motion at all times.

Kyle Redinger
01-17-2011, 07:26 AM
Jake showed me a few threads which weren't too positive on CrossFit and I was a little disheartened. I've owned and run a CF affiliate for 2 years. We are doing a PM cycle right now in our gym, have done Wichita Falls programming and our own in past months. We seek out the best for our clients, put safety before intensity and eliminate egos in the gym environment.

There is a large difference between affiliates, but there are many good affiliates out there that incorporate proper warm up/mobility programs, are aware of client issues, properly instruct and teach movements, scale to intelligent levels and program generally pretty good stuff.

If we are taking a scientific approach to the program, then we should know that taking a few examples from some message boards and comparing them to a general CF population is a problematic endeavor. Yes there are problems and everyone needs to improve, but most of the coaches I've met honestly care about the best interest of their clients over a dangerous attempt of some WOD. Most are aware of injury prone movements, weights that are too heavy and issues with over-programming.

Justin Arnold
01-17-2011, 07:39 AM
Open question to affiliate owners/trainers that do care and program intelligently:

Do you feel that mainsite programming should continue on it's current course? (taking into consideration both CF's policy on scaling WODs and the user group that follows mainsite)

Garrett Smith
01-17-2011, 07:58 AM
I was an affiliate co-owner at one time, in the early days.

Mainpage is on a course to oblivion, and I'm guessing that you already know this Justin...your question was really just to get confirmation of your gut feeling.

Mainpage programming, as is evidenced in the Budding "programming" videos, has no direction, rhyme, nor reason behind it.

Kyle Redinger
01-17-2011, 08:04 AM
Open question to affiliate owners/trainers that do care and program intelligently:

Do you feel that mainsite programming should continue on it's current course? (taking into consideration both CF's policy on scaling WODs and the user group that follows mainsite)

We don't use mainsite programming for our clients as the WODs are too long and too advanced for us to best benefit our clients. I know BrandX does a good job with scaling ideas, but we generally like shorter time domains, focus on strength and higher intensity levels.

For our competitive athletes, we think they are necessary part of training for the games. It would be nice to put more emphasis on scaling for general population. As an affiliate it's our responsibility to take care of our clients. For individuals on their own... well.. they do so at their own risk, but that's not unlike following PM programming or anything else out there.

Jacob Rowell
01-17-2011, 08:09 AM
For better or worse, most affiliates that I have run in to operate in a completely different realm than mainsite when it comes to programming. Hell, some of my members have no idea that there is a crossfit.com, strangely enough.

Again, from the affiliates I have had close work with, they program based on many of the general principles coming from HQ, but adapt to the needs of their membership.

Long story short, outside of internet discussions and those that follow the mainsite every day, I don't imagine many affiliates will care either way what the crossfit.com workouts are. Sorry for the less than straightforward answer, but all I can say is we've done a lot of experimentation with our own programming, and we've had some good and bad runs in there, but I know that we're moving in a good direction, and can see clear improvements in how the membership as a whole is progressing.

Steve Shafley
01-17-2011, 08:23 AM
The number of awesome athletes who were built, from the ground up, from Crossfit is essentially zero.

Jacob Rowell
01-17-2011, 08:45 AM
It's not a matter of anyone distancing ourselves. We're affiliates - CrossFit is in the name, and I'm happy with that. What happens on the main page, in their message board, in here, and on IGX doesn't doesn't change the fact that CrossFit affiliates are largely autonomous and will do whatever they see fit. Their opinion on mainpage programming is almost as inconsequential as those within the message board bubble.

I started the thread with the hope (and thankfully some took it seriously) that instead of a few people whining about the mainsite and vowing to stop it all costs, some intelligent folks with experience in injury prevention would provide some insight to those who might listen - the many affiliates who I'm sure browse these boards.

But thanks for the witty comment Andrew.

Arien Malec
01-17-2011, 09:14 AM
Jacob, I think you got the feedback you were looking for, in good faith, with a minimum of sideswipes.

However, you are using Crossfit for branding and lead generation but not for programming. But the way that Crossfit has enforced its brand is through harassment and vilification of people who have tried to improve mainsite programming or have helpfully critiqued mainsite programming and exercise selection. You don't feel just a tiny bit squeamish over branding that is associated with:

1) Programming that is outright harmful
2) Character assassination and/or expulsion of those who have tried to improve the programming to be better and less harmful

??

Justin Arnold
01-17-2011, 09:16 AM
"...if you donít follow the plan, youíre only a shell of what you could be."

This smacks of the general principles of HQ.

Who says the client doesn't have a BETTER plan?

Jacob Rowell
01-17-2011, 09:40 AM
I'm missing the point. Is it that we do CrossFit? Never argued otherwise.

Autonomy means that we're able to do as we see fit. For some affiliates, that will work out well, for others, not so much. Being autonomous does not mean doing something completely different than mainsite programming.

If you look, I'm sure you can find much more very public "dirt". Bad front squat rack positions. We also throw in a long chipper on occasion. One month, we played around with some mountain athlete programming - talk about volume!

Arien, I'm extremely thankful for those that gave thoughtful/helpful responses. Unfortunately though, this thread is moving back to the standard fare.

You make a very good point. However, my affiliation with CrossFit has allowed me to do a great deal of good for many people, people I would not have otherwise reached. Should affiliates give that up because they don't agree with everything HQ? And, while not day to day mainsite, Andrew has already pointed out that we use mainsite workouts. Again, we get to operate outside of what happens on the internet for the most part, and it's been a good relationship with HQ so far.

Wayne Riddle
01-17-2011, 09:45 AM
So basically,
You all are distancing yourselves from CrossFit.com and other affiliates,
Because they're hurting people, using terrible, irresponsible workouts to train people,
While you still use those same workouts.

Makes a lot of sense.

And sending CFHQ a nice check too.

Wayne Riddle
01-17-2011, 09:49 AM
Again, we get to operate outside of what happens on the internet for the most part, and it's been a good relationship with HQ so far.

And that relationship is pretty much you send CFHQ money and you get to say you are an affiliate?

Jacob Rowell
01-17-2011, 09:49 AM
Justin, that's just part of the business model. People come to affiliates for direction. If people don't want direction, I recommend other gyms. If someone doesn't want to run, and would say, prefer to roll through 5-3-1 for awhile, I'd recommend the awesome PL/SM place nearby. It's cheaper and better suits their needs. If they have very specific goals, for a few I write specific programming. Sorry if my hyperbole "smacks of HQ".

I think we can agree that any thoughtful plan (maybe we won't agree that my programming is thoughtful?) is better than not running and expecting run times to improve?

Jacob Rowell
01-17-2011, 09:56 AM
And that relationship is pretty much you send CFHQ money and you get to say you are an affiliate?

Didn't think that was a secret. We license the name, if that's the question.

Jacob Rowell
01-17-2011, 10:07 AM
Andrew, I've got no doubt that armed with a little Verkoshansky, Zatsiosky, and Siff by your side, you will duel me quite effortlessly on any response I have. I've seen incredible progress from many, many people, whether by CrossFit's definition or yours. Any injury is too many, and I admit to mine and only wish to improve, and only disagree that injuries can only be prevented entirely outside of the context of CrossFit.

For me, it's a moot point, and an argument I don't care to participate in. You win.

How'd we get to arguing anyways? It started out so nice...

Andrew Wilson
01-17-2011, 10:08 AM
...
Today’s WOD:
800M Run
25 Burpees
500M Row
25 Box Jumps
400M Run
50 KB Swings (24kg/16kg)
500M Row
50 Wall Balls

Today’s WOD:
400M Run
4 Rounds:
15 Deadlifts (185#/115#)
15 Push-Ups
400M Run
4 Rounds:
15 Deadlifts (185#/115#)
15 Push-Ups

Jacob Rowell
01-17-2011, 10:13 AM
Jacob you can't tell someone who has only run once in 3-4 months to do a 4x800m Run w 90second rest.
That's brutal.
800m sprint is the most brutal distance and intensity in track.
It's 114%+ VO2max over 2-3 minutes.
You're talking about sprinting a half mile as fast as possible four times in a row, with half the work time to recover.
If you have no preparation for that, you're going to get crushed.
Intervals are also done with paces, as not indicated in your wod.
You're not suppose to run 800m intervals at 800m pace, you're suppose to run them in 1500m, 3000m, or 5k pace with at the least 2:00 minutes of recovery.

Point well taken - I'm sure you know more about endurance training than I do. Did enjoy the Verk Middle Distance article you posted. I've applied some of those principles to an individual's programming, certainly interested to see how it all works out.

Jacob Rowell
01-17-2011, 10:14 AM
Oh my god

At least 4 people got rhabdo off that one. 7 herniated discs, and 3 SLAP tears. I was shooting for more.

(I feel inclined to say I'm obviously kidding here. Who knows how this will be taken.)

Andrew Wilson
01-17-2011, 10:18 AM
Andrew, I've got no doubt that armed with a little Verkoshansky, Zatsiosky, and Siff by your side, you will duel me quite effortlessly on any response I have. I've seen incredible progress from many, many people, whether by CrossFit's definition or yours. Any injury is too many, and I admit to mine and only wish to improve, and only disagree that injuries can only be prevented entirely outside of the context of CrossFit.

For me, it's a moot point, and an argument I don't care to participate in. You win.

How'd we get to arguing anyways? It started out so nice...

Well not to say you haven't seen progress, and I'm sure you're a good trainer and have had great experiences with your clients, and progress will happen in any physical activity. My concern is long term. CrossFit may be a short exercise fix, but long term it's the number one candidate to cause problems. The evidence is in the injury forum. I see it that any precaution can be taken to prevent injury; mobility, pt, screening, but non of this is going to matter when the workouts are so extreme and over the top in movements that they're going to over run all preliminary efforts to prevent injuries.

Andrew Wilson
01-17-2011, 10:21 AM
Point well taken - I'm sure you know more about endurance training than I do. Did enjoy the Verk Middle Distance article you posted. I've applied some of those principles to an individual's programming, certainly interested to see how it all works out.

Thank you. Professionals like this are the one's trainers and coaches should be listening too; but GG & CrossFit HQ, I do not understand.

Jacob Rowell
01-17-2011, 10:32 AM
Well not to say you haven't seen progress, and I'm sure you're a good trainer and have had great experiences with your clients, and progress will happen in any physical activity. My concern is long term. CrossFit may be a short exercise fix, but long term it's the number one candidate to cause problems. The evidence is in the injury forum. I see it that any precaution can be taken to prevent injury; mobility, pt, screening, but non of this is going to matter when the workouts are so extreme and over the top in movements that they're going to over run all preliminary efforts to prevent injuries.

Really, I understand your arguments. Outside of arguing the general validity of CrossFit methods, I've enjoyed some of the well-intentioned posts especially talking directly about injury prevention. It would be great to hear more.

Like I said in the original post, at one point many affiliates came here, and while I have no way of validating this, I think that many have learned a great deal about more structured training from here. There's certainly the opportunity for more of that.

raj rihal
01-17-2011, 11:50 AM
A quick thought:

maybe have more transparency with the programming and its rational. This better educates clients as to why they are doing particular workouts and what benefit (or potential harm) it will have on them - both in the present and in the long term. This allows people to be more involved in their own injury prevention. Also, it may better inform the client whether the programming is going to fit their goals and needs.

For the life of me I can figure out how @fit is programmed from week to week. There is a pdf link in the forum post below, that is the closest thing to programming theory Ive seen. It just never feels like you're working towards anything...but that is just me.

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=58194

Garrett Smith
01-17-2011, 12:19 PM
Raj,
CF.com has been posting videos lately where Budding is presenting some sort of rationale behind the programming. They have been of no use to anyone, nor is any rationale logically presented.

There is no end goal, because fitness is determined by the context. For CF "fitness", one would appear to be fit if they do CF workouts better than the other people around them, as it is completely based on competition with others and not on standards generated through years of people undertaking the exact same task.

Gant Grimes
01-17-2011, 12:35 PM
I have always enjoyed the conversations with the guys in my gym. When one of us tweaks a program, the others will look over it and start with the questions. It's like defending a thesis.

"What is this supposed to do?"
"Why are you programming these in the same day?"
"How do you expect to recover from a Wednesday evening workout to hit 90% on Thursday at lunch?"
"You know you can't pull this off and still eat tacos every day?"

Sometimes the answer is "I don't know, but I think it will do XYZ." Somethings things don't work. But we always, ALWAYS have a good idea about exactly where a program will take us, and how long it will take to get us there.

This is the starting point. You should be able to explain what every rep in your cycle is supposed to accomplish. You might be wrong, but you should at least have a good guess.

You are also in the position of running a CF-branded business. Not everyone comes to your gym to get better. Some come for the abs but stay for the douche (nobody gives a damn about being elite-ly fit, whatever that means). You have to decide, do you throw these people a bone in the form of a chipper every once in awhile? As a business owner, you probably should. Just don't go overboard on the stupid.

Sara mentioned this, cycle down on the frenzy of activity. I vary mine to correspond with the intensity in 531 cycles. With very few exceptions, people will do better accumulating 5-10 minutes (preferably less) of volume work in a metcon situation. Sustained effort, minimal rest, just not frantic. You'd be surprised how little drop off in fitness and appearance there is.

CF started out as a great idea, and it's a nice template to increase general fitness and ability. Instead of throwing everything in the pot, learn how to program each discipline (treat WL like WL, treat sprinting like sprinting, etc.), and you'll have better results.

Some random thoughts:
* eliminate SDHP and butterfly kips
* Tabata is Tabata. Don't do more than one exercise, and don't do it more than once a week. I like 6-7 rounds (so did Tabata), but we're both dumbasses compared to Couch.
* "teaching DUs" before the trainee can do 3 minutes of a basic bounce or alternate leg at 150-180 rpm is stupid
* Don't let anyone do Roman chair situps quickly; if you have a GHD, use it as a GHD
* 6-10# Dynamax balls are extremely useful; 20#...not so much
* find other affiliates who program well and speak with them about best practices

Gant Grimes
01-17-2011, 12:42 PM
Raj,
CF.com has been posting videos lately where Budding is presenting some sort of rationale behind the programming. They have been of no use to anyone, nor is any rationale logically presented.

I was appalled at this. I was even more appalled at the sheep applauding this. After all this time, the mainpage WOD is still at the 'unconscious incompetence' stage of development.

This is no different than a high school kid working at Baskin Robbins mixing a bunch of crap together to see what comes out. That explains why most .com workouts are about as satisfying as a pistacchio butterscotch sundae with gummy bears and bacon bits.

Andrew Wilson
01-17-2011, 01:40 PM
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/6519/37902491.png
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/499/famn.png

raj rihal
01-17-2011, 04:42 PM
Coming off a @fit induced injury, I feel like I need to understand how I got here, and how to avoid getting here in the future. So I feel like this is the right thread to pose additional questions that contribte to injury (at least mine anyway).

From what I understand, there is no established, published methodology that is used to design programming? Rather it is a loose guideline with which individual affiliate owners can come up with workouts based on Glassmans ideas about fitness? Is that about right?

Is there a "programming for @fit handbook?" Is it proprietary info only available at a certification or thru the journal? Could an affliate owner maybe shed some light on what they are taught in a level 1 cert regarding program design and exercise selection? In addition what is the rational behind particular exercise choices in a WOD? Id like to know how WODs are conceived in the greater context of a @fit training cycle. Is there a cycle?

If there is indeed only a loose guideline, HQ is selling them for 1K a pop, with no liability via affiliation rather than franchise.

i should have done this due diligence months ago...

Derek Weaver
01-17-2011, 04:44 PM
This is Glassman's explanation of the "Theoretical Template" pdf.

"This may have been the most confusing and the most useful tool I've created.

This is not how we produce the WOD, but it will produce workouts indistinguishable from those produces by or more intuitive process. Only the pattern of multiple workouts reveals the use of an algorithm.

Ideally the template would be used as training wheels to get an athlete or trainer to learn to program."

Translation:
"We don't know what you're doing. Please workout until you vomit, tear your hands or otherwise get hurt and then brag about it. It's good for our image. Is it almost happy hour?"

Derek Weaver
01-17-2011, 05:05 PM
Coming off a @fit induced injury, I feel like I need to understand how I got here, and how to avoid getting here in the future. So I feel like this is the right thread to pose additional questions that contribte to injury (at least mine anyway).

From what I understand, there is no established, published methodology that is used to design programming? Rather it is a loose guideline with which individual affiliate owners can come up with workouts based on Glassmans ideas about fitness? Is that about right?

Is there a "programming for @fit handbook?" Is it proprietary info only available at a certification or thru the journal? Could an affliate owner maybe shed some light on what they are taught in a level 1 cert regarding program design and exercise selection? In addition what is the rational behind particular exercise choices in a WOD? Id like to know how WODs are conceived in the greater context of a @fit training cycle. Is there a cycle?

If there is indeed only a loose guideline, HQ is selling them for 1K a pop, with no liability via affiliation rather than franchise.

i should have done this due diligence months ago...

Raj.

There is no real rationale for programming when it comes to CF. At the level 1 cert, at least what it was before the ANSI certification, they go over the assertion that CF is "Sport", the 9 movements that make up CF, 20% slop, the Zone.

In a nutshell, that is really all it is. Oh, and they try and make you throw up a few times throughout the weekend. From there, they recommended training your neighbor with a broomstick before opening your own affiliate.

raj rihal
01-17-2011, 05:15 PM
I should just stop trying to find out more. It just makes me more and more angry. @f is certifying hundreds of trainers to OPEN GYMS with no practical sense of programming? I should have stuck with starting strength.

sarena kopciel
01-17-2011, 05:50 PM
OK so I am bad at understanding programming. I see this as some WODs for the week. What are your thoughts? Obviously these are not meant to be done all in one day!

Workout #1
25 minute AMRAP
Complete 3 rounds of "Cindy"
5 pull ups
10 push ups
15 air squats
Then 10 hang squat cleans


Workout #2
Complete 5 rounds of:
1 minute at each station
Prowler suicides
Air squats
KBS
Rest 2 minutes after completion of each round


Workout #3
Complete the following:
Pull ups/ jump lunges/ push ups
21/18/15/12/9/6/3 reps scheme

Derek Weaver
01-17-2011, 06:33 PM
Sarena,
First, it is good to see you around a bit. I saw Jay Cohen post the other day, and now you. Good to see some of the people from a couple years back still pop in now and then.

Second, I wouldn't go so far to think that may not be for one "micro cycle". There are some affiliates that really are destroying their clients with "Games Programming" to help get them ready for... the Games.

May I ask where you got those "WODs"?

sarena kopciel
01-17-2011, 06:46 PM
Sarena,
First, it is good to see you around a bit. I saw Jay Cohen post the other day, and now you. Good to see some of the people from a couple years back still pop in now and then.

Second, I wouldn't go so far to think that may not be for one "micro cycle". There are some affiliates that really are destroying their clients with "Games Programming" to help get them ready for... the Games.

May I ask where you got those "WODs"?
hey Derek, I have been here for a while now. I am lifting 2-3x week and then doing general conditioning and stuff with a trainer in my globo gym that has CF and other training along with a degree in exercise science. This was from his site/blog. How do these workouts rate?

raj rihal
01-17-2011, 10:42 PM
"when you're programming you wanna pay attention to the difference between newness novelty and familiarity. Between hitting something creatively not known to going back to something that you know. Last cycle we had a lot of thinking going on..alot of things that you weren't sure about that you hadn't done before......so the other thing to is that there is no need to create something new when something old or something previous is already there and already does the job"

"but the crossfit total is a great test of how's it goin? how you doin?"

now I understand where all the @fit bashing comes from.

James Evans
01-18-2011, 02:56 AM
At the very least a plan that isn't designed to wreak havoc on the body.

@ Mtn Athlete - There is no shortage of injury scuttlebutt surrounding that facility in these parts.

I'm interested in this - are people getting smashed by MA? I've seen a few barbed comments in Shaul's direction recently.

One side of his stuff which I think is useful is the inclusion of prehab work/stretches etc in supersets with strength movements:

1a Snatch
1b Stretch
1c Shoulder mobility

This is something Cressey favours too but I doubt they push the speed of the sets at CP quite the way MA will do.

Garrett Smith
01-18-2011, 04:14 AM
I just took the FMS & SFMA courses this weekend. I am firmly of the opinion that all personal trainers and strength coaches should get the FMS course done and use it heavily, and this is based on my experience this weekend along with watching what my buddy has been doing with my (many injuries in the past) wife and my (stiff as a board) mother.

Brian DeGennaro
01-18-2011, 04:43 AM
Off topic briefly:

I want to know why NOW the FMS is getting a lot of press? I've known about it and used it for the past several years but why now?

Steve Shafley
01-18-2011, 05:13 AM
Rob of MA positioned himself as an expert quite early (in his education), which is probably the cause of that.


"Elizabeth"

21-15-9 reps of:
Clean 135 pounds
Ring dips

Next day

"CrossFit Total"

Back squat, 1 rep
Shoulder Press, 1 rep
Deadlift, 1 rep

That's just dumb.

The cleans potentially compromise wrist, shoulder, back and leg integrity, while the dips potentially compromise shoulder and elbow integrity (and maybe neck as well, given the forward position of the head you see in so many ring dips)

To follow that timed, high speed slop WOD with heavy attempts at 1RMs is asking to make your microtrauma a macrotrauma.

Stupid really, and Budding saying it's ok because they aren't in the same "modal domain" doesn't take into account that the joints of the body work mechanically, not chemically or energetically.

Allen Yeh
01-18-2011, 06:45 AM
I think the first few pages of this post were useful but now has turned into a bashing session.....Jacob's original intent for the post were good so please stick with that, bashing can be done in the CF thread.

Jacob Rowell
01-18-2011, 07:00 AM
Thanks Allen.

I'll be heading to a FMS seminar Mid-February in Northern VA. I'll let those of you who aren't familiar with it know how it goes.

Peter Dell'Orto
01-18-2011, 07:37 AM
"Only the pattern of multiple workouts reveals the use of an algorithm. "

Sounds like pi. Eventually pi is going to reveal a pattern, but AFAIK it hasn't yet. If you can't discern the mainpage programming by now, there probably isn't a real long-term plan. The programming videos certainly support that idea. Sigh.

***

Anyway, to the OP: I'd echo the suggestions you got so far, but I'd also say if you have people that like a big chipper-style challenge, throw one in. Post one monthly (the January challenge, say) and program those movements during the month several times in order to have people practice them. At or near the end of the month let people do the challenge and time them. Best time wins or gets on the board or whatever. No penalty at all for skipping the challenge, it's just there for people who need it.

That way you a) satisfy the chipper itch of clients, b) challenge them appropriately, c) establish a short-term goal for their daily workouts (get better at these movements), and d) don't overwhelm them with timed slop regularly. I think that kind of approach to chippers, especially coupled with a trainer watching each attempt and preventing as much technique degradation as possible, can reduce the possibility of long-term injury.

A crazy challenge every once in a while isn't that bad IMO if it consists of movements you've practiced regularly and recently and is programmed intelligently.

Hope that helps,

Peter

Gant Grimes
01-18-2011, 07:44 AM
Here is the algorithm.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/194388362_468c4db821.jpg

Justin Z. Smith
01-18-2011, 08:17 AM
Some franchise program "birthday workouts". So today is your 50th birthday? You're doing 50 pushups, 50 chinups, 50 situps, 50 boxjumps, etc.

That the rep scheme / birthday meshes with your and everyones goals is an amazing coincidence!


Examples:

http://crossfitnaperville.com/2011/01/12/wednesday-marks-birthday-workout/
http://www.fitnessreno.com/gregs-birthday-workout-02-27-2010/
http://www.cascadecrossfit.com/2010/05/29/kyles-birthday-workout/
http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=12093
http://www.crossfitmobile.net/crossfitmobile/post/2010/01/25/Keiths-Birthday-WOD!!.aspx
http://stevesclub.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/01/birthday-wod-for-steve.html
http://www.crossfitbn1.com/2009/07/birthday-wod.html
http://convictioncrossfit.com/daily/andys-birthday-wod/




Justin

Garrett Smith
01-18-2011, 09:34 AM
Off topic briefly:

I want to know why NOW the FMS is getting a lot of press? I've known about it and used it for the past several years but why now?

Brian,
I can't speak for others, however, if I were in the training industry I would have likely done this a long time ago.

Peter Dell'Orto
01-18-2011, 11:33 AM
Here is the algorithm.

I could get under the table with an algorithm like that.

Maybe get acquainted with Pukie, too, if I used it all at once.

Gant Grimes
01-18-2011, 12:39 PM
Some franchise program "birthday workouts". So today is your 50th birthday? You're doing 50 pushups, 50 chinups, 50 situps, 50 boxjumps, etc.

That the rep scheme / birthday meshes with your and everyones goals is an amazing coincidence!


I screwed up. On my birthday last year I should have done 36 box jumps, SHDP, knees-to-elbows, and med ball cleans.

Instead I squatted 365x10. I feel like such a fool.

Brian DeGennaro
01-18-2011, 03:47 PM
Especially because you weren't 36 and a half.

sarena kopciel
01-18-2011, 03:51 PM
Hell, now I am scared. My birthday is Sunday...number 49. Good thing I am not CFing now.

But I was pretty happy with the FS today at 125x3 for my last round of triples!

Geoffrey Thompson
01-20-2011, 02:32 PM
do you know anything about burpees causing shoulder issues? i am on day 51 of the 100 burpee challenge and one person doing it with me has to drop out because of shoulder pain... then i read on another thread where someone's shoulder issues were pushed over the edge from doing lots of burpees... any thoughts?Just noticed this on the CrossFit injury boards. One good thing is to reconsider things like the "burpee challenge". High volume of the same movements day after day is a possible recipe for disaster. It can be done and it can be done productively, but you have to be careful. Just always keep in mind the risk/reward ratio. And if you notice certain movements causing problems - the classic example is Dan John noticing his athletes were getting injured from box jumps - consider cutting them out even if they're CrossFit staples like SDHPs or thrusters.

Gant Grimes
01-20-2011, 02:46 PM
And if you notice certain movements causing problems - the classic example is Dan John noticing his athletes were getting injured from box jumps - consider cutting them out even if they're CrossFit staples like SDHPs or thrusters.

Wait...are sane people actually doing SDHP and thrusters?