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Troy Kerr
02-12-2011, 11:57 AM
GymnasticWOD by Carl Paoli ( i think) and Crossfitgymnastics by Jeff Tucker have been launched recently. Both aim at providing skill training before or after a WOD. Both seem just as random as mainsite. However I do like visiting gymnasticwod a couple times a week simply because they tend to use press-to handstands and lever work, where as Tucker seems to program lots of high rep bodyweight work. Any thoughts on either of these? I have been training with bodyweight for a year now and find it hard to make progress with either of these websites, but hey I could be wrong. Thoughts, comments?

Garrett Smith
02-12-2011, 12:24 PM
Well, the strongest gymnasts in the world (and the kids who are training to get there) do progressions and (sometimes) focused training, so a pseudo-random approach combined with pseudo-random GPP would be the opposite of that. Your results would seem to demonstrate the lack of effectiveness of this approach.

Troy Kerr
02-12-2011, 01:39 PM
Yeah I honestly don't see how someone could make progress of 5-5-5-5-5 front & back lever. Simply lowering into a front lever, holding a sloppy progression, and pulling back up seems like such a waste of time. Would probably be better not even to train the movements at all if this is the route ppl prefer to take.

Garrett Smith
02-13-2011, 06:15 AM
Wow, that's a workout? Somebody who can do that many full front & back levers (I'm assuming they mean "tick-tocks"?) sure doesn't need the GymnasticsWOD, and I'd guess most CFers would have a long way to go to even do that workout in a full tuck position.

I find it amazing that elite athletes from other sports come into CF and seemingly forget all of the programming knowledge that it took to get them to the top of their game in a SINGLE sport, much less the impossible idea of training everything at once.

I know soon I'll get some person who had destroyed themselves saying, "Well, I would do the CFWU, then the MobilityWOD to prep, then I'd do the GymnasticsWOD as "skill" work, then the CFFB strength WOD, then the CF.com metcon o' the day. I should be able to handle all this, right?"

They will get a strong no.

Troy Kerr
02-13-2011, 01:04 PM
I remember reading a post on here from a long time ago where Robb wolf said he trained the movements as "reps". Say a set of 5 for a lever was lowering to the movement, holding for 2-3 seconds, coming up, the repeating. That would turn out to about 15 seconds of total work in that position. Possibly letting someone with some exp. to use a heavier progression.

Yeah I agree. My affiliate is in the same town as a d1 college, and we get a few of their athletes. Anytime I have asked them what their programming was like, the majority of them don't pay attention to sets or reps, and sometimes can't recall the order of the movements they did. However most athletes expect all coaches to know, like their strength levels are as common as a sickness, and that telling the coach they played 4 years of college ball as a wider receiver is all the info we need to make a diagnosis.
Combine that with the fact that hq preaches they are the "end all be all" of any athletic attribute, and thats all it would take for an average athlete to fall into the trap.

Steven Low
02-14-2011, 07:36 AM
This is why I need to get this programming ebook out because there is not very good stuff out on this subject.

Gymnastics is about 30 years behind the times in S&C, so there's not exactly any high quality stuff coming out from the sport as sad as it is to say

Troy Kerr
02-14-2011, 07:08 PM
Roger that Steven. Sommers book got me interested in the subject, but the majority of my training info has came from chatting with you and blair lowe, as well as your article, which I constantly refer back to. Any idea on a completion date?

Steven Low
02-15-2011, 08:07 AM
Hoping by summer... but we'll see.

Troy Kerr
02-15-2011, 08:24 AM
Looking forward to it. I know the popular training method is to train movements at their static position for best results. Steven I know your article states the training the statics will lead to faster gains, but you prefer to be stronger in all planes of movement. Some movements I fell I respond better to training just the statics, like the back lever, and l-sit. But for the front lever I feel a lot stronger doing negatives 1x a week, statics 1x, and front lever pulls 1x. I feel rotating between a PPPU and statics help me feel a lot stronger in the planche development as well.
I feel like that could be a mix of staying on a strict steady state cycle for the past year, so possible changing up movements adding a new stimulus. Or altering the movements changes up the amount of force put on the body. Almost like rotating between a " heavy, light, and medium" training schedule.

Patrick Donnelly
02-15-2011, 09:56 AM
Hoping by summer... but we'll see.

Of which year?

Steven Low
02-15-2011, 10:44 AM
Looking forward to it. I know the popular training method is to train movements at their static position for best results. Steven I know your article states the training the statics will lead to faster gains, but you prefer to be stronger in all planes of movement. Some movements I fell I respond better to training just the statics, like the back lever, and l-sit. But for the front lever I feel a lot stronger doing negatives 1x a week, statics 1x, and front lever pulls 1x. I feel rotating between a PPPU and statics help me feel a lot stronger in the planche development as well.
I feel like that could be a mix of staying on a strict steady state cycle for the past year, so possible changing up movements adding a new stimulus. Or altering the movements changes up the amount of force put on the body. Almost like rotating between a " heavy, light, and medium" training schedule.

Statics may or may not lead to faster gains. If you've never worked with isometrics or eccentrics before they will lead to some very fast adaptations within about 1-2 month period of starting which lends credence to the "fast gains" theory, but most of the strength is via neurological adaptation.. but the hypertrophy can be beneficial.

Like I said in the article I tend to prefer more plane movement type stuff as it leads to better overall strength (in the various planes of movement). This is why I tend to pick up moves I've never tried before pretty quick (initial manna progression was very fast even with my poor shoulder ROM limitations that seem to be stiffling overall progress to full manna) and do well in unexpected movements such as in parkour.

The best routine "in general" as has been stated by many before me is the routine you're not on is the most effective. The impact of this is two fold and antagonistic.... you need to work similar movements or the same movements to really gain strength/neurological adaptation (large component of strength) however muscles and adaptations tend to respond better to varying exercises/movement patterns. If you fine isometrics work well because you've never done them before I'd include them in a ratio of maybe 2-3:1 mesocycles vs. cycles where you don't do them... or in the context of good progression when you hit a plateau with statics dump them for a cycle before coming back to them. This would allow more work with movements, and then when you come back to them you will initially be slightly weaker because you haven't worked them for 4-8 weeks, but the gains come back fast and the adaptations from movements should help you bust through a plateau like that.

I definitely think like you said.. back lever you can easily get with just statics. Front lever is more of a combo draw with statics + concentric movements like FL pullups + mix of eccentrics + maybe some specific rotator cuff work provides the most consistent progression.

PL work definitely needs assistance exercises beyond the statics as well.... straight arm presses fit very well into this scheme overall and help significantly in any handstand skill work that you need.... but no one does it. The other alternatives are things like PPPUs which are only OK fi you keep good form. HSPUs/dips can help but it varies from person to person.

I've written that I don't like SSC much because it underestimates the impact of the novice effect/linear progression. However, it can be utilized effectively when getting close to intermediate strength levels though I do like the undulated periodization model better (which is varying reps based on intensity which leads to some variations in total volume/intensity much like light/heavy or L/M/H, H/L/M or M/L/H progressions).

In fact, unless you're working progressively towards specific goals it's not a bad idea to switch up certain assistance exercises as well and you can stick with the same repetition/volume/intensity rate and still get good progress.

Of which year?

Har har. Planning on this year.

Blair Lowe
02-15-2011, 12:11 PM
GymnasticsWod and CFgymnastics by Tucker basically offer some gymnastics for the ADD CF crowd that want to do gymnastics but still primarily do CF.

In all honesty, it's a half ass way to do gymnastics but if you merely just want to half ass doing gymnastics from time to time, it's fine. It would be perfectly fine for most CF affiliates to put into their weekly/monthly program on a day here or there or put it in as skill work or a finisher.

Carl's stuff seems to be trying than Tuck's. Tuck's posted WOD's are very minimal compared to Carl's based on the ones I see on the Facebook page.

Patrick Donnelly
02-15-2011, 06:33 PM
Har har. Planning on this year.

Well ho ho ho. That's a personal problem.

Troy Kerr
02-16-2011, 08:45 AM
Robb Wolf is following an interesting program with a split in straight arm work, bent-arm, and o-lifting. Kinda interesting. Steven how would you recommend going about training static times if one is not using a steady state ?

íve been doing a rotating template with two different upper body gymnastics days and a lower body weights+OL day.

Day 1- Straight arm: I work a ton of isometric holds on the rings, handstands, scapular protraction and retraction movements. Mixed into this is also front/back lever work and planche work. It does not look like much on paper but itís very demanding. I use a few bands to aid the planche work. Iíll shot some video on a few of these when I get a chance. Reps are in the 1-5 range, always progressing movements to more technical variants when I can consistently get more than 5 reps.

Day 2-Bent Arm: This video shows me doing some 1-arm pull up work using a rope and a 30#DB as assistance weight. I do 1 rest 1 minute, switch arms, do another. When I make 3 total reps on each arm, thatís a set. I have progressed to using a 20lb DB and doing 2 reps per arm. I can do an unassisted pull up with my right arm, close on the left. Then I do some straddle planche push ups. These are super hard and I had no mojo on them initially, but can actually do a few now. I am doing sets of 3-4 on this, just trying to make the movement harder.

Day 3-Lower: I forgot to mention that I do a ton of warmup and mobility work before all of these sessions. Scotty and Ido have some great sequences specific to which day I am working.

After warming up I do some activation/speed work. This may mean doing jumps from kneeling to standing (I had trouble doing this initially, I can now jump onto a 10Ē box). I also use box jumps and round offs. This is all to further the warm up and prime the nervous system for some speed-strength work in the form of an OL derivative. Iíve mainly been using a power clean. Iíve worked up to doing 110kg for a triple in the PC which is plenty for me at this point. Some days when Iím not feeling good itís 80kg for the top end. Other days, I feel good and go for it. I just play with volume and intensity as I described above. I finish with back squats, DL, RDL or similar moves. Reps are 1-3, sets 2-8.

Day 4-For about 6 weeks I just repeated the template or took a day off and started over. Lately Iíve been doing a conditioning day comprised of either sprints (if the weather permits) or heavy bag work. Iíve been keeping the work either low intensity to avoid lactate or I make the rest periods quite long. I want to get back to jits again and am slowly building some conditioning before going back.

Steven Low
02-17-2011, 07:07 PM
I'm constructing a prilepin's chart for static hold times

Robb's template is fine. I still like full body much better especially in the novice/intermediate strength range where most people are though because you get more practice with the skills you want to work. Splitting up into push/pull or upper/loewr or whatever else is OK if you're advanced intermediate or beyond where you need more volume to stress adaptations, but it's more inoptimal in the fact that you don't get a lot of practice with the stuff you want to obtain. The more frequent you do something you want to obtain the faster you get it... full body allows more frequency with that as opposed to going to split programs

I don't want to be a doubter but I highly doubt you can do high quality straddle planche pushups. If you can you should be able to hold a full planche which I don't think is the case.

Regardless, I'm going to try to churn out more content for the book this weekend I guess.... we'll see.

Blair Lowe
02-18-2011, 12:45 AM
Steve, I think Troy posted this from Robb's blog. It was on how after a book tour, his T-levels were down so he used some of the Poliquin tools to use certain herbs and his approach to training and nutrition as he was trying to get back into shape.

It was a fairly recent blog.

Steven Low
02-18-2011, 04:45 AM
I see

Troy Kerr
02-19-2011, 04:50 PM
Yeah Robb Wolf and Scott Hagnas have had fairly good success training upper body gymnastics strength without using strictly static work.

Blair Lowe
02-21-2011, 01:52 AM
which is pretty much what Steve advocates a lot of the time.