PDA

View Full Version : 531>Oly


Andrew Midmer
03-05-2011, 07:59 AM
I have gone through around 8 months of strict 531 in an effort to make gains in maximal strength, the time is fast approaching where I want to move into an Oly lifting cycle. For my own sanity, along with trying to not feel like a lazy ass who just does slow lifts.

I'm leaning towards the Strength and Power Development Phase that Everett outlines in his book. This program lasts 3 months, and I intend to devote maybe 6 months to an Oly program of some kind after which I will move back into Wendler.

Thoughts on this program?

My Oly lifts have not been worked on for some time (8 months or so).

Gareth Rees
03-05-2011, 01:06 PM
I have gone through around 8 months of strict 531 in an effort to make gains in maximal strength, the time is fast approaching where I want to move into an Oly lifting cycle. For my own sanity, along with trying to not feel like a lazy ass who just does slow lifts.

I'm leaning towards the Strength and Power Development Phase that Everett outlines in his book. This program lasts 3 months, and I intend to devote maybe 6 months to an Oly program of some kind after which I will move back into Wendler.

Thoughts on this program?

My Oly lifts have not been worked on for some time (8 months or so).

Hi Andrew,

I'm no expert, but I know the feeling you're going through with the 'slow' lifts, as i'm currently doing 5/3/1 also and want to incorporate some explosive strength work as though I feel I'm getting stronger, I'm also getting slower. This I feel is 5/3/1's biggest flaw.
Though I can't comment on Everett's S&P phase as I've not done it personally, I can offer an alternative. You can actually add some OL work prior to your main 5/3/1 lifts, so for example, do a few sets of squat cleans or high pulls before beginning your squats etc. I saw that you mentioned that you wanted to go back to 5/3/1 after, so just a thought that if you really are enjoying the program that much, then you don't really have to switch from it. That's actually what I intend to do also starting next mesocycle. Or maybe you can do this after your OL cycle, so that you don't lose some of your explosiveness when returning to plain 5/3/1?
I'm sure that some others will give other ideas and actually talk about Everett's S&P phase and generally be more helpful, but just a suggestion for you to think on.
And on a separate note, how are you finding 5/3/1?

Cain Morano
03-05-2011, 05:40 PM
Hell yeah man add some power lifts to the 5/3/1. I am using the snatch balance and power cleans. If you have a month left, spice up your 5/3/1 to get yourself ready for the Olympic cycle. I'll be moving into the S&P development in another three weeks myself. It looks awesome!

Andrew Midmer
03-08-2011, 08:10 AM
To Gareth,

531 is a great barebones program, I was a relatively weak Xfitter, who decided to add some bulk and work my way through a traditional strength program. I have added a lot to my lifts and enjoy the program, but have felt that in recent weeks I may not be as athletic as I like. Wendler does point to hill climbs and Prowler pushes to maintain athleticism (tough to do in Canada in winter time).

Looking to get into another program, as Wendler does start to wear you down.

John P. Walsh
03-08-2011, 11:57 AM
Andrew,

Why do you state that 5/3/1 is greater than Oly?

JPW

Blair Lowe
03-08-2011, 03:14 PM
Hmm, I'm looking to add something to my 531 workouts. Currently on Tues, I do BS and Fri do DL.

I was thinking of adding some of the Oly lifts prior to the 531 portion. I looked at Pendlay's and need to go look at Everett's beginning programs again but I was just thinking of something like 10-15 lifts of each. Ideally though I should be doing Oly more than just 2d/week though and haven't figured which days yet.

It will require an oly friendly gym membership and my hopes of just getting a stand and building a platform have been nullified recently. Oh, well. Climbing gym here I come.

Dirk Wilcke
03-09-2011, 07:12 AM
Can't you do both at the same time? This is what I do:

Day 1

Clean variant (power cleans, full cleans, 2 pos cleans) - Mostly triples or doubles
Push press - 5/3/1
Front squats - Triples or doubles
Abs


Day 2

Snatch variant (Muscle snatch, full snatch, snatch power snatch) - Mostly triples or doubles
Overhead press or overhead squat - 5/3/1
Back squat - 5/3/1
Abs


Day 3

Jerks - Mostly triples or doubles
Deadlift variant (Snatch/clean grip deadlift; using oly form) - 5/3/1
Chinups
Lower back


If I feel like going heavier on the classical lifts I will not push the 5/3/1 exercises and vice versa.

Gareth Rees
03-10-2011, 02:38 PM
To Gareth,

531 is a great barebones program, I was a relatively weak Xfitter, who decided to add some bulk and work my way through a traditional strength program. I have added a lot to my lifts and enjoy the program, but have felt that in recent weeks I may not be as athletic as I like. Wendler does point to hill climbs and Prowler pushes to maintain athleticism (tough to do in Canada in winter time).

Looking to get into another program, as Wendler does start to wear you down.

I see, I know that Wendler does suggest hill sprints and prowlers, and both are awesome, but if they're not accessible to you then you CAN of course use other methods to get your conditioning done, even though he doesn't say much past those two options. I personally have used the rower for 500m, 250m and 100m intervals, though 500m is definately too long for high intensity intervals. You could of course just do anything that gets your heart rate high, uses your full body, is high intensity, and short duration, and it'll be fine.

And I definately see what you're saying with it wearing you down! So of course the logical situation is to keep it fresh and switch your programme. Maybe this may just be an idea for you after you're done with Everett's plan, and you want to come back to 5/3/1

Can't you do both at the same time? This is what I do:

Day 1

Clean variant (power cleans, full cleans, 2 pos cleans) - Mostly triples or doubles
Push press - 5/3/1
Front squats - Triples or doubles
Abs


Day 2

Snatch variant (Muscle snatch, full snatch, snatch power snatch) - Mostly triples or doubles
Overhead press or overhead squat - 5/3/1
Back squat - 5/3/1
Abs


Day 3

Jerks - Mostly triples or doubles
Deadlift variant (Snatch/clean grip deadlift; using oly form) - 5/3/1
Chinups
Lower back


If I feel like going heavier on the classical lifts I will not push the 5/3/1 exercises and vice versa.

That is what I suggested also, preceding the 5/3/1 lifts with a few olympic pulls. I've heard of a lot of people doing the lifts in singles and on the minute, I've not tried either, but just an idea at a variation for either of you.

Can i also just comment on your plan Dirk? I see no volume in it, just high intensity! Which isn't really how Wendler intended it. And that would lead me to believe that you'd get burned out pretty quickly physiologically and psychologically (especially as you have more than one 5/3/1 lift in a day). But with regards to the day 1 - clean variation, day 2 - snatch variation, and day 3 - jerk variation... I may have to steal this idea for my own training :D

Dirk Wilcke
03-10-2011, 10:44 PM
That is what I suggested also, preceding the 5/3/1 lifts with a few olympic pulls. I've heard of a lot of people doing the lifts in singles and on the minute, I've not tried either, but just an idea at a variation for either of you.

Can i also just comment on your plan Dirk? I see no volume in it, just high intensity! Which isn't really how Wendler intended it. And that would lead me to believe that you'd get burned out pretty quickly physiologically and psychologically (especially as you have more than one 5/3/1 lift in a day). But with regards to the day 1 - clean variation, day 2 - snatch variation, and day 3 - jerk variation... I may have to steal this idea for my own training :D

While I agree that the program doesn't have that much volume the intensity can be managed pretty well in my opinion. I'm not going to push all four 5/3/1 lifts and the classical lifts in one week. I also deload every four weeks. However I would I burn out psychologically if 'I'd have to do 5 sets of 10 - I just can't do it, it bores me.

Andrew Midmer
03-14-2011, 07:42 AM
To John P - Immediately after posting a realized this, not intended.

In terms of anciliiary work to 5/3/1 I have worked on static gymnastic holds: L Sit, Handstand, Back lever, Front lever. This allows some free time/play to prevent the fatigue that 5/3/1 will naturally create.

I have thought of adding in the Olifts in the fashion mentioned above, but do not believe I will make the same progress without an all out process. In terms of strength, I believe leg strength (my nemesis due to being 6'6" and a string bean) will improve, due to double week squatting (front and high bar back - pretty quad dominant compared to the low bar I do now).

I know that for technique and a beginner, feel maybe a better route than percentages.

Competing in an informal deadlift competition in two weeks, may switch over after. Still thinking on it.

Cain Morano
03-14-2011, 08:43 AM
Andrew, I just finished a three week cycle of 5/3/1, my legs are also weak.

Three days a week I did back squats for three weeks...my tested 1RM was 285.
Monday 5/3/1
Wednesday 3x5 across
Friday speed sets
Today I did the last loaded week of the cycle, 5 reps/3 reps/max reps. I squatted 245 nine times. Theoretically my 1RM has increased. According to the Brzycki formula, which all of my performance has adhered very closely to so far, my current PERCEIVED 1RM is 315. I would definitely believe a 15-20 pound gain. Irrespective, I am now a lot stronger than when I started.

Troy Kerr
03-14-2011, 08:51 AM
Robb Wolf outlined a template where he was using oly lifts for his supplemental work. I believe the snatch was on deadlift day, and the clean on back squat days. The outline can be found on his blog while he was recovering from adrenal fatigue. The snatch was done before the deadlift, and I believe it was the same for the power clean.
If you want to improve on your slow lifts as well as oly lifts, Mike B. has a generic program that focuses on oly lifts and uses some of the slower lifts as supplemental work. It is easily modifiable. I used it with some of my athletes a few months back and just took out the 3rd day.
As a side note, after discussing this with some other sources, it appears oly-lifts can dramatically increase the slow lifts. More specifically the clean on the front squat, the snatch and clean on the deadlift, as well as the jerk on the strict press. I am sure this is do to the fact that you are moving a smaller percentage of your 1rm dead, front squat, and press much faster, and in the case of the jerk, putting more weight overhead.
Anyways I hope this helps you out.

Andrew Midmer
03-14-2011, 10:11 AM
Hey Troy,

Probably a little chicken and egg argument with regards to carry over and Oly vs. Slow lifts. I know Louie Simmons believes the carryover with powerlifting to Oly is substantial. Though he trains PLifters (biased). Either way will be exciting to see how the change goes. Probably needlessly complicating the matter, but always good to get opinions/theories on it.