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Dan Mulqueeney
03-10-2011, 05:20 PM
Hey.
I'm a Vegan (no animal products), and I'm hoping to use your knowledge to improve my diet. A couple of quick points about myself. I'm a vegan because I feel that raising and killing smart, feeling animals in terrible conditions is morally wrong. I can't support this industry anymore, so no going back. I agree that, evolutionarily, humans are omnivores are a best suited to a diet of Veggies, fruit, Seeds and, yes, meat. But just because thats what we did doesn't mean its right now.

Anyway, I'm male, weigh 102kg (about 220 pounds) at around 20% body fat (calculated from tape measurements). I have a 160kg squat, 180kg dead, 65kg OH press, 75ish bench. Also a 9.6 shuttle run and a 78 second 400m.

I want to increase my numbers in all those lifts, play around with lifting stones, and generally look muscular.

I try to stick to whole foods, but its not a hard and fast rule. My breakfast is normally 100 grams of oats, cooked with coconut milk and 20 grams of LSA (Linseed, sunflower and almond meal). Also a soy milk shake with 40 grams of brown rice protein and ~8 grams of EAA powder.

Lunch is normally reheated dinner from the night before.

Dinner is normally bean based, something like burritos, or spaghetti sauce. I also like Falafel's with Hummus and home made veggie burgers.

Does anyone have suggestions to improve my diet? Meal ideas? Comments?

Derek Weaver
03-10-2011, 06:05 PM
Learn to hunt.

Chris Butler
03-10-2011, 06:31 PM
But just because thats what we did doesn't mean its right now.
Do you really believe this?

Steven Low
03-10-2011, 09:02 PM
Go to your local CSA / Co-op and get grass fed meat

I don't think any of us here support vegetarian or veganism in any form. It's not physiologically sound.... so why harm your body to prove a point especially when there is some forms of ethically raised meat (grass fed from local farmers for example)

Dan Mulqueeney
03-10-2011, 09:37 PM
Do you really believe this?

Sure. Just because its what humans did in the past doesn't mean we can't, in some circumstances, choose not to. The human body is pretty remarkable and can cope with dietary changes. There are both people who eat purely meat and people who eat purely raw fruit. Both seem to survive.

ethically raised meat

Ethics is a personal judgement. I feel that raising animals for meat is unethical.

Derek Weaver
03-10-2011, 09:38 PM
I don't think it's as physiologically screwy as some make it out to be. Work on the blue zones indicates a relatively low amount of meat consumption in the longest living societies. It also shows a high level of low intensity activity, low stress, sense of community etc. Just not eating meat, or much of it, doesn't equal long life. Looks to be a package deal.

Either way, go to Mike Mahler's website and look into what he's got on veganism.

He's strong with KBs, pretty strong with barbells and doesn't ingest any animal products.

Aggressive Strength or something like that is the name of his E-Mag.

edit:
Ethics is a personal judgement. I feel that raising animals for meat is unethical.
Don't raise it then. Learn to shoot, or learn to use a bow, and get a hunting license. Or learn to fish. Or don't.

Darryl Shaw
03-11-2011, 04:10 AM
There's no reason why vegetarian/vegan athletes can't achieve similar levels of size and strength to non-vegans providing they train hard and eat enough to support training and growth.

Vegan Weightlifting: What Does the Science Say? (http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/weightlifting)

Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets. (http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/2003_ADA_position_paper.pdf)

www.veganfitness.net

sarena kopciel
03-11-2011, 05:46 AM
SHocker but I was vegan for 15 years and then vegetarian...I did macrobiotics, raw food, the works. And ya know what got me back to eating REAL food? WHen I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes and elevated cholesterol from eating a diet high in grains etc. The "top" US nutritionist said I wasnt eating enough grains. WTH? That is all I was eating along with soy this and and bean that.

I switched gradually...first fish, then chicken, then meats, etc. I am far healthier and stronger now.

Steven Low
03-11-2011, 01:37 PM
The reason vegan/vegetarian is hard to take seriously is that they *require* supplemenation of omega-3s and B vitamins especially B12 to even do remotely well on the diet.

Any other diet (with meat) you don't have to supplement with anything.

Even though we recommend supplementations like fish oil, vitamin D, whatever else all these things can easily be eliminated by getting out in the sun more or eating more high quality foods like grass fed meat with the fat.

However, something the REQUIRES supplementation (e.g. that which has only cropped up post 1950s) which vege/veganism has isn't exactly comforting to relative health given our past evolutionary history. Especially since meat literally made us human.

I don't buy any argument except maybe religion for not eating meat. And then I don't agree with religious reasons either.

Daniel Dean
03-11-2011, 03:44 PM
I'm a vegan because I feel that raising and killing smart, feeling animals in terrible conditions is morally wrong.

Why do you need to go completely vegan then? I have seen very happy chickens and dairy cows happily laying eggs and producing milk. What about small fish and shellfish? I can understand how people have ethical issues with raising a cow just to eat it, but sardines, shrimp or clams don't really fit the description of "smart, feeling animals". Bivalves barely have any nervous system at all and even crustaceans don't have true brains. Crustaceans are little different from insects and spiders, if you can swat a fly without remorse you should be able to eat a shrimp. Speaking of insects, there's another great source of animal protein that is completely free of ethical hangups. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703293204576106072340020728.html

Dan Mulqueeney
03-11-2011, 05:14 PM
However, something the REQUIRES supplementation (e.g. that which has only cropped up post 1950s) which vege/veganism has isn't exactly comforting to relative health given our past evolutionary history. Especially since meat literally made us human.

Yes, Humans had to eat meat and bugs and fish and everything. But technology and industrialization, with the mass farming and transport of veggies and fruit and the production of supplements, has given us a choice. We can choose not to kill animals.

Why do you need to go completely vegan then? I have seen very happy chickens and dairy cows happily laying eggs and producing milk.

In the case of milk and eggs, its not always the animal itself which is suffering, but others. Dairy cows have to give birth at least yearly in order to produce milk. The calves are removed from their mothers very young and killed for dog food.
Chickens have a laying life of about a year to two years, So huge amounts of new chickens need to be born every year to replace them. Billions of chicks are hatched and billions of male chicks, which can't lay, are literally minced alive.

What about small fish and shellfish? I can understand how people have ethical issues with raising a cow just to eat it, but sardines, shrimp or clams don't really fit the description of "smart, feeling animals". Bivalves barely have any nervous system at all and even crustaceans don't have true brains. Crustaceans are little different from insects and spiders, if you can swat a fly without remorse you should be able to eat a shrimp. Speaking of insects, there's another great source of animal protein that is completely free of ethical hangups. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703293204576106072340020728.html

I guess your right. According to this link http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/com-e/lega-e/witn-e/shelly-e.htm (Safe) Insects, Crustaceans and Molluscs don't feel pain and are not included in legislation regarding cruelty to animals. Fish are accepted as feeling pain and other emotions (although the link doesn't address this). I haven't really thought about this aspect much. I'll do some research and think about this. I guess I still feel compassion towards them.

Derek Weaver
03-11-2011, 05:43 PM
I'm starting to wonder if this is a troll thread.

Dan Mulqueeney
03-11-2011, 06:02 PM
I'm starting to wonder if this is a troll thread.

Nah, I'm legit. Friend me on facebook, whatever. My original question was how to optimize my diet for strength within certain boundaries. Mike Mahler was a great suggestion, thanks. I've been reading his articles and his workout log on IGX.

Darryl Shaw
03-12-2011, 05:44 AM
SHocker but I was vegan for 15 years and then vegetarian...I did macrobiotics, raw food, the works. And ya know what got me back to eating REAL food? WHen I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes and elevated cholesterol from eating a diet high in grains etc. The "top" US nutritionist said I wasnt eating enough grains. WTH? That is all I was eating along with soy this and and bean that.

I switched gradually...first fish, then chicken, then meats, etc. I am far healthier and stronger now.

Obviously I can't explain why you might have developed diabetes but I will say that generally speaking diets based on whole grains and legumes are associated with a reduced risk of diabetes and other chronic diseases.

Whole-grain and fiber intake and the incidence of type 2 diabetes. (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=12600852)

Whole-grain intake is favorably associated with metabolic risk factors for type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease in the Framingham Offspring Study. (http://www.ajcn.org/content/76/2/390.long)

Review: Cereal grains, legumes and diabetes. (http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v58/n11/full/1601995a.html)

Wayne Riddle
03-15-2011, 02:40 AM
http://lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm

Darryl Shaw
03-15-2011, 04:29 AM
http://lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm

Here's Virginia Messina RD's review of The Vegetarian Myth - link. (http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/09/review-of-the-vegetarian-myth.html)

Steven Low
03-15-2011, 08:46 AM
That review was terrible.


Also, I'm gonna post the obligatory:

http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/PIIS0899900710002893/fulltext