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Peter Evans
03-15-2011, 02:26 AM
Hi all I, I hope this is the correct place to post my question. Apologies if it is not.

I was wondering how I could put together a very simple plan to reach my goals...

I was making progress with my lifts, then I went overseas for a couple of months with no regular access to barbells... or anything really.

I've recently got back into training and would like to exceed what I have done previously.

Goals:

Clean and Jerk 95kg

Snatch 75kg

Also would be nice to maintain a modicum of basic conditioning - to run a mile sub 6min and maintain bw pull ups and push ups - but not that important.

Training must fit into no more than 3 Barbells/weights sessions and perhaps1or2 conditioning sessions per week as I have a family and business to run.

The time frame for these goals is unknown because I don't know what progress from now to there is realistically possible.

This is where I'm at Currently -

C&J 80kg, though several months back - Dec '10 - reached 90sq cl and 90Jerk individually

Snatch several months back 67.5kg - currently unknown

Back Squat (high bar) 1 rm 100kg ( prior to holiday was 112.5kg)

Press 1rm 55kg

Push Jerk 75kg

Deadlift 140kg ( prior to holiday was 165kg)

Pull ups deadhang 16 reps

Body Weight 70kg

I tend to be a moderate to high intensity, low volume lifter gauging by feel and how I've progressed in the past.

I would state that I have perhaps passable technique with Olympic lifting and always have the 'student mindset' with regards to always wanting to improve technique and training in general.

To be able to see a (or some) simple idea(s) about planning out training would be gratefully appreciated!


Many thanks in advance,

Peter

Pat McElhone
03-15-2011, 07:57 AM
Snatch up to a heavy single, C&J up to a heavy single, FS the C&J weight for several sets of 3 reps. If you miss a weight 3x, stop. Do this 1-2-3x a week, always take a day off between workouts. Simple.

Peter Evans
03-15-2011, 12:20 PM
Snatch up to a heavy single, C&J up to a heavy single, FS the C&J weight for several sets of 3 reps. If you miss a weight 3x, stop. Do this 1-2-3x a week, always take a day off between workouts. Simple.

Thank you Pat - I like it.

Would you have any recommendations in terms of desired weight/ effort/ intensity each session?

Or would you think a more intuitive approach be best with your plan?

Thank you!

Pat McElhone
03-15-2011, 02:46 PM
Intuition. Work up to a heavy single. Heavy is when the weight feels forced. Some days heavy may be a PR others it may be 80% of PR.

Dirk Wilcke
03-16-2011, 05:17 AM
Snatch up to a heavy single, C&J up to a heavy single, FS the C&J weight for several sets of 3 reps. If you miss a weight 3x, stop. Do this 1-2-3x a week, always take a day off between workouts. Simple.

Looking at the OPs stats his main issue is that he is too weak. I don't feel that your recommendation really addresses this. I also don't think that simply "working up to a heavy single" every workout is likely to address all technique issues.

Pat McElhone
03-16-2011, 08:21 AM
Looking at the OPs stats his main issue is that he is too weak. I don't feel that your recommendation really addresses this. I also don't think that simply "working up to a heavy single" every workout is likely to address all technique issues.

How strong does he need to be to C&J 95 and Snatch 75? What are you basing that on What would you have him to do get to these goals? There are many, many, many plans out there for a beginner weightlifter. There is even a plan on this very site! But, he asked for a simple plan.

The best exercise to improve the snatch is the snatch. That is simple, but forgotten by many. You can tell him, snatch grip pulls from the hang, OHS, snatch balances, etc. how much do these exercises actually carry over to the snatch? But again, in a simple plan, just snatch.

The best exercise for the C&J is the C&J. Again, this guy has a very finite amount of time to train. He should be doing what provides the best bang for his buck.

Finally, add an additional strength move that also improves mobility/flexibility and works the position of receiving in the clean. Front Squats, done with an upright torso, bar on the shoulders, elbows up, strong lat spread, A2A.

Pat McElhone
03-16-2011, 08:31 AM
I tend to be a moderate to high intensity, low volume lifter gauging by feel and how I've progressed in the past.

I would state that I have perhaps passable technique with Olympic lifting and always have the 'student mindset' with regards to always wanting to improve technique and training in general.

To be able to see a (or some) simple idea(s) about planning out training would be gratefully appreciated!


Many thanks in advance,

Peter

He states his has passable technique and he tends to do well on moderate to high intensity, low volume.

Check out these links for me (both WFS)
http://www.wix.com/jonnorthattitude/2012 (Click on blog)
http://www.doctorhartmanblog.com/2011/02/transfer-effect.html

Dirk Wilcke
03-17-2011, 02:56 AM
How strong does he need to be to C&J 95 and Snatch 75? What are you basing that on What would you have him to do get to these goals? There are many, many, many plans out there for a beginner weightlifter. There is even a plan on this very site! But, he asked for a simple plan.

The best exercise to improve the snatch is the snatch. That is simple, but forgotten by many. You can tell him, snatch grip pulls from the hang, OHS, snatch balances, etc. how much do these exercises actually carry over to the snatch? But again, in a simple plan, just snatch.

The best exercise for the C&J is the C&J. Again, this guy has a very finite amount of time to train. He should be doing what provides the best bang for his buck.

Finally, add an additional strength move that also improves mobility/flexibility and works the position of receiving in the clean. Front Squats, done with an upright torso, bar on the shoulders, elbows up, strong lat spread, A2A.

He's cleaning 90kg and jerking 90kg with a best back squat of 112,5kg. He is very unlikely to improve on that ratio, i.e. in order to get more overhead he needs to get stronger. I don't think snatching, c&j-ing for singles and front squatting for triples three times a week (all weights based on feel) is the most effective way to get stronger for most lifters. Of course it satisfies the simplicity requirement.

If nothing else I would add some form of programming on the front squats (and add in back squats) to give him a feel of where he is heading.

Pat McElhone
03-17-2011, 06:45 AM
He's cleaning 90kg and jerking 90kg with a best back squat of 112,5kg. He is very unlikely to improve on that ratio, i.e. in order to get more overhead he needs to get stronger. I don't think snatching, c&j-ing for singles and front squatting for triples three times a week (all weights based on feel) is the most effective way to get stronger for most lifters. Of course it satisfies the simplicity requirement.

If nothing else I would add some form of programming on the front squats (and add in back squats) to give him a feel of where he is heading.

This is where we differ. I think the vast majority of working adults, guys who fit training into what little bit of free time they have left between work and family, would do much better on a very simple plan. They may or may not be "most lifters".

What happens when the "plan" calls for 5x5 BS at 85% and he was up all night with a sick 3year old, was too busy at work to eat lunch and now at 5pm has do 5x5 because it is Friday and that is what the plan says to do? Life happens, which is why going by feel is a great way to train for certain people.

Dirk Wilcke
03-17-2011, 08:30 AM
This is where we differ. I think the vast majority of working adults, guys who fit training into what little bit of free time they have left between work and family, would do much better on a very simple plan. They may or may not be "most lifters".

What happens when the "plan" calls for 5x5 BS at 85% and he was up all night with a sick 3year old, was too busy at work to eat lunch and now at 5pm has do 5x5 because it is Friday and that is what the plan says to do? Life happens, which is why going by feel is a great way to train for certain people.

You are assuming that somebody has the judgement to go by feel and find appropriate weights which will allow him to progress (in the long term) if you prescribe "go by feel" and offer no guidance on percentages or long term progression but that this same person does not have the judgement to go by feel in adjusting percentages/reps/sets of a program downward (or upward) on a given day if he notices that adhering to the percentages would not make a lot of sense?

Pat McElhone
03-17-2011, 10:28 AM
[QUOTE=Dirk Wilcke;88280]You are assuming that somebody has the judgement to go by feel and find appropriate weights which will allow him to progress (in the long term) if you prescribe "go by feel" [B]and offer no guidance on percentages or long term progression but that this same person does not have the judgement to go by feel in adjusting percentages/reps/sets of a program downward (or upward) on a given day if he notices that adhering to the percentages would not make a lot of sense?[QUOTE]

Isn't this going by feel?

What is your program for the OP based on his available training time and his goals?

Kevin Perry
03-17-2011, 11:27 AM
My 2 cents

Drop conditioning

3x a week for training pick 2-3 compound lifts and go for 3x5 and increase it weekly when you get all 5 reps. At the start of each workout pick either snatch or clean and jerk and work on form and hitting sets of 2-3 until your bored. When your confident add more weight. Simple huh?

Pat McElhone
03-17-2011, 12:41 PM
My 2 cents

Drop conditioning

3x a week for training pick 2-3 compound lifts and go for 3x5 and increase it weekly when you get all 5 reps. At the start of each workout pick either snatch or clean and jerk and work on form and hitting sets of 2-3 until your bored. When your confident add more weight. Simple huh?

I think this is a pretty good plan that most people on a message board would agree with. 2-3 compounds lifts, 3 sets of 5 reps, adding weight weekly is a very good way to build broad strength.

Most people think the way to snatch or C&J more is to get stronger and the best way to get stronger is to do compound movements, 3x5, adding weight when all reps are completed. Along these lines are the ideal "the lifts" are based on technique. So, practice the technique, "doubles on the lifts" done first, then build broad strength with compound lifts.

This approach "assumes" strength in the compound lifts (deadlift, back squat, bench press, press) is 100% transferable to the snatch and clean jerk. It is not. A heavy snatch feels and moves much different then either a heavy deadlift or a light snatch. Also, just snatching heavy, clean and jerking heavy, for most workouts will get people very strong on their own.


Way too many people read Starting Strength, Practical Programming, 5/3/1 or any other powerlifting based programs and since weightlifting involves a barbell too, they think these programs are applicable to weightlifting. You can apply them to weightlifting, but again, the best exercise for the snatch is the snatch. The best exercised for the clean and jerk is the clean and jerk.

When someone, as the OP did, expresses an interest in a simple plan to improve "the lifts", they need to hear "prioritize doing the lifts, frequently, and heavy".

Kevin Perry
03-17-2011, 01:45 PM
And people spend too much time analyzing on the Internet instead of being in the gym and lifting.

Gareth Rees
03-17-2011, 02:09 PM
And people spend too much time analyzing on the Internet instead of being in the gym and lifting.

YES!!! This is the best comment on this thread!!! The best way to get to your goals is to get in the gym and actually lift some weights instead of just thinking about it...