PDA

View Full Version : Ketosis


John P. Walsh
03-25-2011, 05:39 AM
I'm doing an Atkin's induction. Generally how does it take to get into Ketosis? Yes I am using the Ketosis strips. I am on day 2 and still nothing.

Chris Butler
03-25-2011, 07:35 AM
It can take a few days or even a week.
Where are your macros at?

John P. Walsh
03-25-2011, 08:44 AM
It can take a few days or even a week.
Where are your macros at?

Just an educated guess but I would say about 40/40/20. fats/proteins/carbs

Chris Butler
03-25-2011, 09:05 AM
You might need to go below 20% initially.

I had success with eating only protein, fat and green veggies for a week.

Arien Malec
03-25-2011, 09:16 AM
Too many carbs for ketosis, if that's your aim.

Real ketogenic diets are 4:1 ratio fat to protein; almost zero carb.

If you really want to trigger ketosis quickly, three approaches, all of which can be used at the same time:

1) Fasting
2) More fat, less protein, much less carb.
3) Move that 20% carbohydrate to PWO

John P. Walsh
03-25-2011, 10:52 AM
I screwed up. I am only consuming 20 grams of carbs. Forget that 40/40/20 number.

Darryl Shaw
03-26-2011, 06:39 AM
I screwed up. I am only consuming 20 grams of carbs. Forget that 40/40/20 number.

50g of carbohydrate per day is required to prevent ketosis so if you're eating ~20gCHO/d you should be in ketosis by now although it should be noted that that will not enhance fat oxidation significantly compared with any other calorie restricted diet or speed up the rate at which you lose body fat.

Arien Malec
03-26-2011, 08:53 AM
although it should be noted that that will not enhance fat oxidation significantly compared with any other calorie restricted diet or speed up the rate at which you lose body fat.

Ketosis alone, probably not. If you think of ketosis as a biomarker for glycogen depletion and very low insulin, it's a good indication that you have prime conditions for lipolysis (but not essential for it). As Darryl notes, that doesn't mean much for fat oxidation if you aren't taking in fewer calories than your body needs (but most people on Atkins do so spontaneously, at least at the beginning).

Note on terms: To lose fat you need to mobilize it (lipolysis) and burn it (oxidation).

John P. Walsh
03-28-2011, 06:40 AM
OK. I am on day 5 and the strip only shows a trace of ketosis. I am not eating any grains or any fruit. The only place I can think of getting carb creep is from cheese and deli turkey breast. The only dressing I use is olive oil.

John P. Walsh
03-28-2011, 06:45 AM
50g of carbohydrate per day is required to prevent ketosis so if you're eating ~20gCHO/d you should be in ketosis by now although it should be noted that that will not enhance fat oxidation significantly compared with any other calorie restricted diet or speed up the rate at which you lose body fat.

I have already lost 3 pounds.

John P. Walsh
03-28-2011, 06:47 AM
Ketosis alone, probably not. If you think of ketosis as a biomarker for glycogen depletion and very low insulin, it's a good indication that you have prime conditions for lipolysis (but not essential for it). As Darryl notes, that doesn't mean much for fat oxidation if you aren't taking in fewer calories than your body needs (but most people on Atkins do so spontaneously, at least at the beginning).

Note on terms: To lose fat you need to mobilize it (lipolysis) and burn it (oxidation).

As in calories in calories out? Bless me Father for I have sinned...

Darryl Shaw
03-29-2011, 05:29 AM
I have already lost 3 pounds.

The initial rapid weight loss you get with any calorie restricted low carb diet is mostly glycogen and water. You're actually mobilising/oxidising fat at about the same rate as that guy who did the Twinkie diet (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html).

As in calories in calories out? Bless me Father for I have sinned...

Yep. If your energy intake is less than your energy output you'll lose weight regardless of what you eat or the macronutrient ratio of your diet with the amount of fat mobilised and oxidised being determined by the extent and duration of the caloric deficit.

John P. Walsh
03-29-2011, 10:47 AM
The initial rapid weight loss you get with any calorie restricted low carb diet is mostly glycogen and water. You're actually mobilising/oxidising fat at about the same rate as that guy who did the Twinkie diet (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html).



Yep. If your energy intake is less than your energy output you'll lose weight regardless of what you eat or the macronutrient ratio of your diet with the amount of fat mobilised and oxidised being determined by the extent and duration of the caloric deficit.

Oh boy. Thanks anyway.

Arien Malec
03-29-2011, 01:51 PM
Just to be clear, I believe LC works. The mechanism by which it works probably has nothing to do with ketosis, and more with the effects of protein on leptin and leptin sensitivity.

But yes, at the end of the day, it's calories in/calories out. That equation doesn't mean that all diets are equal at the end of the day; different dietary strategies have differing effects on leptin, insulin, and leptin and insulin sensitivity, which affect both how hard/easy it is to follow a diet.

On both a physiological and an self-experimental basis, the best strategy is a cyclic LC approach (i.e., high protein, low carb, low calorie with occasional postworkout high carb refeeds).

John P. Walsh
03-30-2011, 06:38 AM
But yes, at the end of the day, it's calories in/calories out.

This mean nothing. It's like saying that drinking a lot causes alcoholism.

Arien Malec
03-30-2011, 08:16 AM
No, it's like saying drinking a lot causes drunkenness, but that statement has the same issue you are pointing to, which is that knowing and doing are two different things, particularly when there are physiological issues involved.

But back to your original question, you want ketosis. I provided two strategies to induce ketosis faster. I'll give you a third: LISS or weight training focused on glycogen depletion.

Chris Butler
03-30-2011, 11:18 AM
On both a physiological and an self-experimental basis, the best strategy is a cyclic LC approach (i.e., high protein, low carb, low calorie with occasional postworkout high carb refeeds).I found this to be how I've had my best results, ie. consistent strength gains with bodyfat reduction.

John P. Walsh
03-30-2011, 12:21 PM
No, it's like saying drinking a lot causes drunkenness, but that statement has the same issue you are pointing to, which is that knowing and doing are two different things, particularly when there are physiological issues involved.

But back to your original question, you want ketosis. I provided two strategies to induce ketosis faster. I'll give you a third: LISS or weight training focused on glycogen depletion.


Yes itís precisely like that. If you eat too many calories youíll gain weight is about as useful as saying that if you drink a lot of beer youíll get drunk. OKÖso now what? One it doesnít tell me anything I donít already know and two it doesnít address the fact that I have gone on a caloric restricted diets and still gained weight or at least maintained an undesirable weight. As for training I have been at it most likely longer than youíve been alive. I can say without reservation that exercise may have many benefits but weight loss is not one of them. So I guess the third time wasnít a charm in your case but thanks for trying anyway Frenchy.;)

John P. Walsh
03-30-2011, 12:27 PM
Just to be clear, I believe LC works. The mechanism by which it works probably has nothing to do with ketosis, and more with the effects of protein on leptin and leptin sensitivity.

But yes, at the end of the day, it's calories in/calories out. That equation doesn't mean that all diets are equal at the end of the day; different dietary strategies have differing effects on leptin, insulin, and leptin and insulin sensitivity, which affect both how hard/easy it is to follow a diet.

On both a physiological and an self-experimental basis, the best strategy is a cyclic LC approach (i.e., high protein, low carb, low calorie with occasional postworkout high carb refeeds).


Can you elaborate more on leptin sensitivity?:D

Arien Malec
03-31-2011, 07:31 AM
Well, I don't know about you, but when I eat, say, a ton of dry chicken breast, I have no appetite. My first foray into Atkins was high protein, and lots of weight loss; later I tried real ketosis (higher fat), and found it hard to sustain. My experiments with IF and high protein leave me satiated with half of maintenance! So for me, at least, there's some magic with protein and satiety. According to Taubes, the magic is low carb and the evils of insulin, but high fat, low protein should work better, and it doesn't, for me, at least.

That's all n=1 stuff, but there are some studies that support this (with diet, at least, n=1 is the only thing that counts but it's nice to know that it's not purely mental). Now, satiety is another way of saying better leptin sensitivity or higher leptin (or there's some other magic unknown hormone).

Here's what I know: strategies to manage leptin work for me; strategies to manage insulin don't. I don't really know what is going on physiologically: is it leptin, insulin + leptin, something else?

The best strategy for me (n=1) is IF + high protein/low carb with occasional post workout high carb refeeds. Leangains, in other words.

Lyle had a whole series on leptin on his site; it's a good read.