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Justin Arnold
08-16-2011, 06:42 PM
Hello gents and ladies,

I'm looking for some advice on how to correct something that I have to assume is an issue.

I'll work on getting some video, but as the load starts rising in the deadlift, I (and people watching) notice a distinct tendency to rise at the hips well before the bar leaves the floor. I can lift a significant amount of weight this way (double BW), and am quite flexible, so keeping the back flat isn't a problem. Still, it seems like something I should fix, so I'm looking for cues or exercises to help.

Right now I'm squatting heavy (linear progression) and very deep (ass-to-ankles with good form), deadlifting, some powercleans and snatch skill work, and glute ham raises on my posterior chain days. I also throw in some plyos and occasional hill sprints.

I'm pretty tall, so "long levers" may be an issue.. though I don't have particularly long legs for my height.

Any ideas? is video necessary?

Bee Brian
08-16-2011, 11:24 PM
The only thing I've really done for myself to solve that kind of problem is to consciously try to have my shoulders, knees, and barbell move up at the same rate. All I do is practice that...

Derek Weaver
08-17-2011, 03:19 AM
Hello gents and ladies,

I'm looking for some advice on how to correct something that I have to assume is an issue.

I'll work on getting some video, but as the load starts rising in the deadlift, I (and people watching) notice a distinct tendency to rise at the hips well before the bar leaves the floor. I can lift a significant amount of weight this way (double BW), and am quite flexible, so keeping the back flat isn't a problem. Still, it seems like something I should fix, so I'm looking for cues or exercises to help.

Right now I'm squatting heavy (linear progression) and very deep (ass-to-ankles with good form), deadlifting, some powercleans and snatch skill work, and glute ham raises on my posterior chain days. I also throw in some plyos and occasional hill sprints.

I'm pretty tall, so "long levers" may be an issue.. though I don't have particularly long legs for my height.

Any ideas? is video necessary?

I'll admit that I am a weak puller at this current point, but the one tip that Dan John said that worked the best for me was "Chest up, wiggle the toes".

He explains things pretty freaking well in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34saz57cxjs&feature=related

Donald Lee
08-17-2011, 04:40 AM
It may mean your hamstrings are stronger than your glutes, but you're doing deep squats which should use a lot of glutes.

There are a few options you could do.

1. Halting deadlifts with a light-moderate weight. You could also do deficit halting deadlifts. Focus on reinforcing the correct motor pattern, not on developing strength.

2. 1-2 sets of hip thrusts prior to deadlifting to get your glutes firing properly.

3. Train your glutes directly.

Eduardo Chile
08-19-2011, 07:09 AM
I think the most likely culprit is either your starting position is off or you're not getting as tight as possible when your pulling. Pull the bar hard with your lats, and brace your abs, and try to keep your shoulders back when pulling. Should help.

I'm working on the latter at the moment, and it's been a long road, but I'm improving. Plus, the more specific the work, the better it should translate to the pull. As Donald mentioned, halting deadlifts are great as well as deficit deadlifts. I'm having some success with deadlifts +mini too, since it causes me to stay tight otherwise the lockout becomes difficult.

Video is definitely necessary in my opinion.

Troy Kerr
08-19-2011, 09:44 AM
Your back angle is not being maintained during the pull.Pull into the bar with your arms, don't just set them there. In your setup squeeze your chest and upper back up. Focus on maintaining a tight back angle.

Emily Mattes
08-19-2011, 08:19 PM
I had this issue and it was due to insanely weak glutes and hams. I would do some more glute-specific work. Do some hip thrusts and the Cook hip lift prior to training to wake them up, and try weighted barbell hip thrusts as an accessory. Clean and snatch pulls to the knees with a pause helped as well. Start as light as you need to make your form on these absolutely perfect without any hip lift. For me that was like 30-40% of my max.

Justin Arnold
08-21-2011, 09:06 AM
Thanks for the help everyone.

I am squatting deep, but just over 1.5xBW as a 1RM, so maybe my glutes aren't all that strong?

Is there a way to evaluate Glute/Ham strength? or balance with the quads anyway?

I doubt it's an issue of lat strength, as I've been climbing long enough that upper body pulling is extremely strong for me. It may simply be not actually trying to pull with the lats though. You guys are saying I should be actively pulling the bar backward with my lats? I could see that causing the shoulders to come up.. but it also seems like it'd drag the bar across my shins and catch on my knees? For the record I do make it a point (just like SN & CJ) to keep my chest up and shoulders back.

Justin Arnold
08-22-2011, 02:49 PM
OK..

So I took a bunch of video of various loads, and compared them to deadlift and setup videos on youtube (nothing but experts there.. hah). And it appears a large part of why my Hips are rising so much is I'm starting with them way too low in the first place.

I'm working on trying to get these videos rotated (from the phone) and into one clip.. but it appears things may not be as bad as I thought.

Are Rippetoe's vids on the deadlift and setting up for it pretty solid?

Eduardo Chile
08-23-2011, 08:23 AM
I like Rippetoe's setup, just don't agree that everyone should look down when deadlifting.

If you follow Rip's setup, I think the only way you would have your hips too low is by having the weight over your toes, so you should be ok.

To me, having your hips too low means your shoulders are behind the bar too much, is this the case?

Justin Arnold
08-26-2011, 08:35 PM
It looks like my shoulders may be too far back, but that obviously corrects itself as the hips rise.

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuYZtCkPK4M

Tomorrow is deadlift day again (I think) so I'll mess with different starting positions

Donald Lee
08-27-2011, 07:54 AM
Look again. Your problems aren't all from starting too low.

Justin Arnold
08-27-2011, 10:47 AM
Care to elaborate?

I've watched these more than a couple times and am obviously not seeing what you are referring to.

Donald Lee
08-27-2011, 11:57 AM
Your hip angle is closing after you lift the bar off the floor. What you initially thought was happening is what is happening.

You also deadlift very fast. When you work on fixing your form, you're going to have to slow it down a lot before you can get back to your normal speed.

Justin Arnold
08-27-2011, 12:51 PM
I see what you mean, thanks for clarifying.

I generally try to do all of my lifting very quickly, avoiding slow grinding reps. Are you suggesting that I slow it down on purpose? Or will that just be the result of focusing on that part of my form?

Donald Lee
08-27-2011, 12:57 PM
While you work on your form, lift at a slow-moderate speed. Once your form is fixed, you can lift at your normal speed again. Deadlifting that fast while you're trying to fix your form will only reinforce your already ingrained motor patterns.

Eduardo Chile
08-27-2011, 07:47 PM
As Donald said you're not tight enough. Get your lats involved, get your shoulders down and back, and think big chest. You can see it gets worse as the weight gets heavier. Some halting deadlifts would definitely help. Start the deadlift and hold it about an inch off the ground for a count of 3, then finish the rep. If you can maintain your position paused you know you're tight.

Justin Arnold
08-28-2011, 09:23 AM
Thanks for the help. Would working from a deficit help? Or maybe snatch-grip?

Eduardo Chile
08-28-2011, 09:50 AM
They may help but the bulk of your work should be using your regular range of motion. Going from a deficit or changing your grip would alter your starting position to some degree and won't be as specific as regular deads or pauses. I would use them sparingly.

Donald Lee
08-28-2011, 10:00 AM
Thanks for the help. Would working from a deficit help? Or maybe snatch-grip?

Working from a deficit would help to get your glutes firing properly. In your case, halting deficit deadlifts should be used with light weights. I also recommend the pause that Eduardo mentioned.

Justin Arnold
08-28-2011, 10:19 AM
I'll give it a shot. Thanks again.