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Alex Europa
08-17-2011, 08:36 PM
http://vimeo.com/27801579


This is a cross-post from CF.com, but any additional tips would be awesome. I am completely self-coached so I tend to get stuck fairly regularly. I am just starting up an Oly-specific cycle based primarily around Greg's "Classic" program, which is why I pulled this 1RM.

The takeaways that I've received so far are that I need to be more solid in the receiving position and that I need to be overall more aggressive. Here are the questions that I posed over there:

- I already have lots of snatch balances and OHS programmed in, are there any other drills or technique variations that I can use to be more solid at the bottom?

- Turnover speed: What are some good drills to improve this? Muscle Snatches at 60-75%? Scarecrow Snatches?

- Any good drills to improve my speed pulling under the bar? I assume that this is different than merely arm-turnover speed.

Thanks for your time!

- Alex

Matt Foreman
08-17-2011, 09:14 PM
Good looking lift and you've got the potential to lift a lot more. You need to make sure the bar is in contact with your shins before you start the pull off the floor. When you start the pull with the bar separated from the shins, it creates a number of problems.

Bee Brian
08-17-2011, 10:41 PM
http://vimeo.com/27801579


This is a cross-post from CF.com, but any additional tips would be awesome. I am completely self-coached so I tend to get stuck fairly regularly. I am just starting up an Oly-specific cycle based primarily around Greg's "Classic" program, which is why I pulled this 1RM.

The takeaways that I've received so far are that I need to be more solid in the receiving position and that I need to be overall more aggressive. Here are the questions that I posed over there:

- I already have lots of snatch balances and OHS programmed in, are there any other drills or technique variations that I can use to be more solid at the bottom?

- Turnover speed: What are some good drills to improve this? Muscle Snatches at 60-75%? Scarecrow Snatches?

- Any good drills to improve my speed pulling under the bar? I assume that this is different than merely arm-turnover speed.

Thanks for your time!

- Alex



(I have yet to read your entire post. But I've watched the video.)

You and I have the same lifting problem with the snatch. Don't extend/jump/explode too early. Learn the position first and be patient.

Bee Brian
08-17-2011, 10:49 PM
- I already have lots of snatch balances and OHS programmed in, are there any other drills or technique variations that I can use to be more solid at the bottom?

- Turnover speed: What are some good drills to improve this? Muscle Snatches at 60-75%? Scarecrow Snatches?

- Any good drills to improve my speed pulling under the bar? I assume that this is different than merely arm-turnover speed.

Thanks for your time!

- Alex

# 1: More snatches done in proper form.

# 2: More snatches done in proper form.

# 3: Same as numbers 1 and 2.



I don't mean to be a smart aleck. It is something that I believe about training. The best way to improve your technique in a lift is to do that lift as often as you can under strict technique-reinforcement environments. Video tape yourself and watch. Once you spot something, quickly fix it (or at least TRY to fix it) at the next set. Do some hang snatches, power snatches, etcetera with an empty bar or a stick.

When that fails, do segment lifts.

I really don't believe in doing the variations of the lifts. They can only disrupt your progress if you are not the type of person who gets a direct benefit from them.

This is just my two cents. Others may have different ideas.

Bee Brian
08-17-2011, 10:53 PM
Good looking lift and you've got the potential to lift a lot more. You need to make sure the bar is in contact with your shins before you start the pull off the floor. When you start the pull with the bar separated from the shins, it creates a number of problems.

Umm, excuse me?



I highly disagree with this. Textbook weightlifting involves having the bar over your toes (may be slightly in front or slightly behind). Now if you are one who has unusually long feet or unusually short feet in relation to your body, it could be different, but the above is the textbook way of doing it.

Alex Europa
08-18-2011, 12:45 AM
Matt,

I'm not sure what dragged you out of the woodwork to post on my thread, but thanks for the tip. I've read Greg's book twice and somehow managed to miss that little tidbit of info. Sigh. On the plus side, I have a feeling that it's going to help my cleans a ton also...damnit :rolleyes:

Brian,

No doubt that doing more reps of the full lifts will help me out greatly. Luckily, the "Classic" program generally has 3 days of the full lifts per week. This is the first time that I've done any "specific" weightlifting in about 3 years other than power cleans/snatches during heavy metcons or the occasional EDT-style workout. Because of that, I'm sure that my speed will get much faster once I get some good, quality work in. I was just curious if anyone had any other specific drills to add in during non-full lift days to build speed or solidness (I don't think that's a word). I appreciate the feedback. :)

- Alex

Alex Europa
08-18-2011, 12:47 AM
(I have yet to read your entire post. But I've watched the video.)

You and I have the same lifting problem with the snatch. Don't extend/jump/explode too early. Learn the position first and be patient.

I'm not tracking here...could you provide an example?

- Alex

Spencer Mackay
08-18-2011, 02:47 AM
Matt,

I was just curious if anyone had any other specific drills to add in during non-full lift days to build speed or solidness (I don't think that's a word).

- Alex

Solidity! Job!

Bee Brian
08-18-2011, 03:47 AM
I'm not tracking here...could you provide an example?

- Alex



To make an elaborate post short... Just learn the hang snatch from the vertical-torso position and learn how to "put yourself in that position."

It's as simple as that. But if you want me to elaborate further, just say the word.

Shane Skowron
08-18-2011, 06:37 AM
The back could use more arch at the start and 1st pull.

Greg Everett
08-18-2011, 08:14 AM
All in all, looks good. RE bar on shins specifically, I respectfully disagree with Mang Foremong on this one. I actually like the bar not in contact, but close - in contact tends to drag and make getting past the knees more difficult. I do think your weight is a bit too far forward initially, so get the bar back a bit, push the knees out more and work on your flexibility so you'll be able to get into a better arched position.

the bar stays very close to your legs on the way up, which is good, but you end up a bit farther over the bar than i would like. in other words, you're getting pressure back toward your heels by pushing your knees back and leaving you shoulders forward - i'd rather see you keep your torso a bit more upright and shift the weight back with the entire body. this will help you stay over the bar longer (i.e. mid to upper thigh), which will help your speed and balance.

try doing some halting snatch deadlifts to upper thigh focusing on position and balance, then snatch from that hang position; return to floor and snatch from floor trying to get the same positions.

Matt Foreman
08-19-2011, 10:19 PM
I mentioned this subject in one of my last articles for PM, coincidentally. Great technique topic. Having the bar in contact with the shins prior to pulling it from the floor allows the lifter to feel the correct position of keeping the bar as close to the body as possible. It's true that dragging the bar up the shins is poor technique. But it's possible to have the bar in contact with the shins prior to the pull without dragging it as the pull commences. This is how most/all of the best lifters in the world do it. This video has a good demonstration of what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/user/franjete#p/a/u/0/aZ9gviCGZ5E

This is the World Championship from 2006, 85 kilo C&J. It's a long video, but just look at the first two lifts. One is a C&J by Martirosyan and the second one is from Calancea. The camera angle is perfect to show what we're addressing. They have the bar up against their shins prior to the pull, but they don't drag it up the shins in a way that harms their technique. Martirosyan's lift especially because the camera actually shows the bar nudge his sock as he pulls from the floor. If you watch their snatches, you'll see the same thing. On some of the lifts, the camera is too far away to see a close-up of the bar or shins prior to the pull. But it's obvious that they are in contact. If there's any separation, it's no greater than the length of the hairs on their legs. There's a slow-mo shot of Rybakou's lift at 16:15 of the video that also gives a perfect shot. There's just a slight difference between how these lifts look and how Alex's lift looks. Very tiny difference, definitely. Overall, he's doing a lot of things right technically.

Not dragging the bar up the shins is something it took me years to master. I definitely had my share of bloody shins in my early career. But it came around eventually.

Spencer Mackay
08-20-2011, 01:13 AM
Rybakou opens up a cut on his left leg at 16:15! There is hope for us yet.

Greg Everett
08-20-2011, 10:22 AM
Not in contact doesn't mean far away - it just means not actually in contact. Depending on how exactly a lifter starts, initial contact may disappear once the bar starts moving if the start is one that has the knees pretty far over the bar and a more dramatic shift back as part of the break from the floor.

Max or near lifts in competition are tough to use because it's arguable that they don't represent ideal technical performance even for a given lifter. A lifter of that caliber will always err on the side of keeping the bar closer to the body than farther away, and this may result in unintentional prolonged contact with the shins.

That being said... there is more than one way to skin a cat. Or a shin, as it were. I have lifters in here who do slide the bar up the shins, and I don't interfere because they're able to do it without creating a problem. Others I teach specifically to keep it off because I find it works better for them.

Matt, I think you wrote an article for the PM a couple years ago along the lines of teaching everyone the same basics and then allowing deviation for personal preference as proved effective. I would say this falls into that category.

Matt Foreman
08-21-2011, 09:26 AM
Yep, good points. I definitely think this falls under the "personal deviation" category too. The issue of using max attempts as a gauge of technique is an interesting issue as well. For elite lifters, I think pulling technique is going to basically look the same whether it's 50 kilos or 200 kilos on the bar. That great Ironmind Bulgarian training hall video where Vanev took multiple shots at 205-210 in the C&J is a great illustration of that. If there are technique glitches with max attempts, they almost always occur in the turnover or overhead/receiving position as opposed to the pull.

Spencer, I saw that cut on Rybakou too. I used to get those sometimes, but they were always on my dominant hand side (I'm right handed and the cuts always happened on my right shin). It's funny how the body is all connected.

Robert Takano
08-23-2011, 08:50 PM
I agree with Matt. Your shins should be touching the bar. In your case this has caused your hips to rise early, hence the bar ending up slightly in front. To help with your bottom positions do some behind the neck, snatch grip presses in a squatting position. To assist with your speed going under the bar do snatches from a starting position where you are up on the balls of your feet. Do not perform a counter movement. Just pulls with the arms and use your speed only to get under the bar.
Hope this helps!
Bob Takano,
www.takanoathletics.com