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Greg Davis
03-18-2007, 09:33 AM
Okay so I might be obsessing a little bit but I've really been able to be strict with my diet lately so I'm taking the opportunity to nail down what is optimal for me.

With going paleo+low carb (not much fruit or any starchy veggies), and increasing fat intake, I've noticed that I've lost a bit of weight. No big deal for me since my climbing ability (my main athletic concern) hasn't been affected. But it strikes me that the high amounts of fat I'm eating might not be getting utilized by my body (hence the drop in body weight).

Came across this post by Dr. Garrett Smith which made me wonder about how much fat I should be eating:

"The fact that I'm male, Type O (for whatever that part is worth), and a fast oxidator, would seem to say that my system would prefer a bit more animal protein and fat. So, that's exactly what I do.

What this diet has opened my eyes to is the very distinct possibility that my wife's optimal version of this diet is going to be very different than mine--she is a Type A (haven't done her metabolic type yet, although I'm positive she's a slow oxidator), probably needing a whole lot less fat, salt, and animal protein than myself."

I happen to be Type A but have never thought before about what kind of "oxidizer" I am.

Then there is Art De Vany's comments on the subject:
"A number of health authors make dubious claims about the role of blood types; some advance the metabolic typing theory to claim that certain "types" are better adapted to hunter-gatherer or agricultural diets. It is mostly nonsense, with some slight evidence that suggests the theory to non-skeptical thinkers."

I'm curious to know if any other paleo/high fat/IF'ers out there have considered their blood type or thought about how their body handles fat (relative to others). I'm relatively young and healthy and handle most food well so its hard for me to just go on "what works" as far as what is optimal.

Yael Grauer
03-18-2007, 07:37 PM
hey Greg, I'm a non-believer in the blood type diet, but I did pay forty bucks to take the online test at metabolictyping.com, where I learned that I'm a really fast oxidizer. I just wanted to point out that the blood type diets (which I'm convinced are bunk) are different than metabolic typing.

Mike ODonnell
03-19-2007, 06:35 AM
Mercola tried the blood type diet....and gave himself diabetes thinking he was a slow oxidizer...

Robb Wolf
03-19-2007, 07:13 PM
Oy-Vey...I really wish there were something to the Blood type diet. Everyone who kicks ass on it is, not surprisingly an "O"...which is a paleo diet. I'm an A. I have a horrific time with grains, specifically anything with gluten, and legumes which happens to be the foundation of the A diet!

Looking at the metabolic typing, the qualitative differences between one diet, like fast oxidizer VS slow oxidizer...there is no damn difference! They include crap like wheat toast and juice...WTF!? i may be wrong but IMO it's complete crap. I've heard Poliquin quip about it once or twice but his main message is "paleo" and "avoid gluten and grains". Sounds good to me.

A really condensed approach to nutrition:Meat, Leaves Berries (Borrowed with permission from Dan John inc.). Eat what's in season. Berries post workout if you need extra carbs. Skip meals occasionally. Take a pro-biotic.

Why are you loosing weight? it's damn near impossible to maintain "extra" weight on a low carb, high fat diet...there are no "utilization" issues...your body just finds a nice set-point and that's it.

So I have a pretty potent bias towards paleo eating. I think it's the healthiest thing going hands down and for most things performance oriented it is likely the best but there are many circumstances like post workout nutrition to enhance performance/recovery and getting heeeeyuge in which "paleo"eating is likely not the best approach. If one wants to get really big you better include some dairy derived proteins in the form of pre and post WO shakes...some refined carbs with many meals....you know why? So you are HUNGRY! It will be a big enough pain in the ass to eat all that food but you will find it tough to do on a really low carb, low GI/Glycemic load diet. Right tool for the right job.

Yael Grauer
03-19-2007, 07:54 PM
Actually, my metabolic typing report says to avoid wheat. I'm also not supposed to have any kind of fruit juice at all at all. The grains that I can have (and they make a point of writing "optional" next to the grains on all the meal plans) are amaranth and triticale. I'm not even supposed to eat berries--only apples, pears and coconuts. And the apples can't be too ripe.

With my report I got a huge chart created to help me fine-tune my diet based on what ratios work best (i.e. feeling full and with a lot of energy and without any cravings, etc.) You write down what you eat each meal and then record how you feel 1-2 hours later.

Greg Battaglia
03-21-2007, 08:20 PM
I agree with Robb. I always thought that blood typing diets were a load of crap, and initially thought the same of metabolic typing. However, I have since changed my views, sort of. There's no doubt that no person is exactly like another, and this applies directly to metabolism. Some people thrive on plant-based diets, others on meat-based. However, there is absolutely no need to pay someone $50 to tell you what proportions of macro nutrients (or micro nutrients) are optimal for you specific metabolism. The proponents of MT pray that you to believe that there is as much to it as they claim, because they want your money! I"ll tell you how to find your metabolic type right now. Limit all of your food choices to only Paleo foods. Eat as much of it as you want, whenever you want, in any combination that you want, to start. Tweak things around until you feel best. That's your metabolic type! Pretty simple. After that you can add in things like IF and supplements, and tinker some more.

Yael Grauer
03-21-2007, 09:32 PM
I have a friend who's a dietitian and is really into Paleo diet, cyclic low carb, etc. (y'all would like her) and she occassionally uses metabolic typing for her clients. She says the test isn't absolutely necessary, but in certain circumstances it is very helpful, especially if her clients are very out of touch with what foods make them feel healthy or if she can't figure out whether they're fast or slow oxidizers for whatever reason. When you are eating the correct types of foods your body starts to regulate your instinct for eating the right amounts of things, which makes following a diet more intuitive and less mechanical (but within some basic guidelines.) Unfortunately some people don't want to spend months or years or whatnot to tweak dietary combinations and don't have the money for genomics. For them I dare say MT would be a good start.

As far as the blood type diet, I don't think there's any science behind it... Also it says type A's should be vegetarian, and of course there is no vegetarian anthropological group anywhere. An herbalist on a different list I'm on pointed out that their information on lectins is inaccurate. There does seem to be a link between blood type and disease states, however.

Mike ODonnell
03-22-2007, 06:04 AM
I kind of have to believe that for the most part....the body will adapt to whatever you give it....land on an island with only fruits and veg...it will learn to survive....or an island with only in-n-out burger....it will survive.....however there always could be some side effects from trying to live off something the body does not want. I would guess most people are geared towards a Paleo approach.....and stearing too heavily towards the carb metabolism belief will have more negative impacts long term than positive.

Yael Grauer
03-22-2007, 09:09 AM
I just feel like I would have saved a LOT of time and money had I figured out my MT in the first place, instead of going on the Zone, realizing it was too high in carbs and too low in fat (I'm an 87% fast oxidizer), trying Zone with Paleo foods and going insane trying to make it work (and micromanaging percentages instead of eating intuitively), having to read the Athlete's Zone, the Omega RX Zone and Inflammation Zone, oh and Optimal Hormonal Enhancement (or whatever it's called), then printing out a bunch of different complicated charts from the Zone and the MT page to try to figure out some things that way, etc. etc. It would have been a much better starting place to tweak things from. And supplements calibrated for my metabolic type just seem to work a little better. This is for ME, too...I LOVE tweaking. So how much better would it be to have a good starting point for someone who DOESN'T like tweaking? Anyway. 'Nuff said.

Robb Wolf
03-22-2007, 12:18 PM
I just feel like I would have saved a LOT of time and money had I figured out my MT in the first place, instead of going on the Zone, realizing it was too high in carbs and too low in fat (I'm an 87% fast oxidizer), trying Zone with Paleo foods and going insane trying to make it work (and micromanaging percentages instead of eating intuitively), having to read the Athlete's Zone, the Omega RX Zone and Inflammation Zone, oh and Optimal Hormonal Enhancement (or whatever it's called), then printing out a bunch of different complicated charts from the Zone and the MT page to try to figure out some things that way, etc. etc. It would have been a much better starting place to tweak things from. And supplements calibrated for my metabolic type just seem to work a little better. This is for ME, too...I LOVE tweaking. So how much better would it be to have a good starting point for someone who DOESN'T like tweaking? Anyway. 'Nuff said.

Yael-
Are you then saying that with MT'ing you have achieved the body comp and performance you desire?

I just can not track down a straight answer on what constitutes a "fast vs slow oxidizer". Looking around the net I found some things like this:

Fast oxidizers tend to have poorer muscle definition than slow oxidizers. The fast oxidizer retains more water in the tissues, which contributes to poorer muscle definition. They often have a flabbier appearance, even though they may possess good strength. Fast oxidizers also tend to carry more weight on their trunk and have more slender arms and legs. Slow oxidizers tend to have less mass on the trunk and may carry more weight on the legs.

It sounds like fast oxidizers are insulin resistant...classic description of insulin resistance in fact. Even Barry Sears acknowledges that a certain percentage of people can tolerate a higher carb diet and maintain good hormonal response...for a time. the bottom line is a moderate glycemic load diet will mitigate advanced glycation end-products. here is another goody from another site:

Metabolic typing takes cognizance of the fact that each individual is different and has different nutritional requirements. Part of this is due to heredity. For example, Eskimos thrive on large quantities of fat and meat, while the natives on some Pacific islands thrive on an almost total vegetarian diet. Very few people in the United States are pure Sympathetic types or pure Parasympathetic types. However, by carefully answering the questions it becomes possible to determine whether one branch of the autonomic nervous system dominates.

Hmmmmm....I don't know. Hunter Gatherers, whether they are highly carnivorous like the Inuit or nearly vegetarian for parts of the year like the !kung are waylaid by the inclusion of modern foods, or even basic agricultural staples.

I am on board with the fact that stress affects people differently. Some get digestive issues, some get headaches. It's still the same stress!We need to eat and sleep well and exercise to be healthy. We need down time and socialization.

Sorry if I'm being a Dick here but I just have not seen good results come out of the MT stuff. Yael, throw me some resources and I will do some more tinkering.

Yael Grauer
03-22-2007, 12:47 PM
http://www.healthexcel.com/
This has a ton of info on it if you look under the library.

The basics are here:
https://www.metabolictypingonline.com/WhatItIs.aspx
https://www.metabolictypingonline.com/FAQ.aspx?page=2

From the FAQ:

QUESTION: My doctor says a balanced diet is all I need to stay healthy, and I do eat as healthfully as I can. Yet, I still feel like I'm running on empty and like there is something my body must be lacking, or I would feel better.

HEALTHEXCEL: The failure to acquire all the nutrients for which one has a genetic requirement expresses itself in different ways in different people. For some, it's intense cravings; for others, it's feeling hungry five minutes after eating a big meal; for you, it's feeling like you are running on empty; for others, it's something else. Regardless of the specific form it takes, it's just your body's way of communicating, it's your body's language, saying that it did not get the right balance of nutrients to meet its needs.

Your doctor is very right; one should eat a well-balanced diet in order to be healthy. The question which naturally follows, of course, is what constitutes a well-balanced diet? Actually, what constitutes a well-balanced diet for one person, very likely is not right for someone else. The high protein, fat diet of the Eskimo certainly is not right for the vegetarian East Indian. The basis for the determination of what diet is correct for any given individual is a matter of genetic inheritance. Just as your genes dictate your height, bone structure, color of eyes, strength of your digestive system, the efficiency of your immune system, the rate of your cellular metabolism and all the innumerable characteristics which make up the unique biochemical and biological wonder that is YOU, so too, do your genes deter-mine the requirements your body has for fuel. In order to find out what a well-balanced diet is for you, you would need to determine your metabolic type.

QUESTION: What is the difference between Metabolic Typing and Blood Typing? Is a Metabolic Type the same thing as a Blood Type?

HEALTHEXCEL: With the advent of the recent book on blood types, Eat Right 4 Your Type by Peter D'Adamo, N.D., we are often asked if blood typing is the same as metabolic typing. In short, no. Actually, one's blood type is just 1 of 9 different components used in the process of metabolic typing to determine individual nutritional requirements. Here are the components that we have discovered are necessary to consider in evaluating your metabolic type:

1. Autonomic Nervous System (ANS) – the “master regulator” of metabolism
2. Oxidative System – rate at which nutrients are converted to energy within the cells
3. Catabolic/Anabolic – aerobic / anaerobic metabolism, tissue pH, selective membrane permeability
4. Acid / Alkaline Balance – 6 different kinds of pH imbalances
5. Electrolyte Stress / Insufficiency – concerned with blood pressure, circulation, electric potential
6. Endocrine Type – determines body type, shape, weight gain, etc.
7. Constitutional Type – from AyurVeda and Chinese medicine, concerned constitutional qualities of foods relative to constitutional qualities of indivisual
8. Blood Type – food lectins specific to ABO blood types
9. Prostaglandin Balance – Series 1, 2, 3 prostaglandin balances
10. Neurotransmitter Balance – balance of excitatory vs. inhibitory neurotransmitters control brain function

The blood type has more to do with what few foods should be left out of your diet due to their lectin content specific to your blood type. But blood type has little to do with what foods and nutrients should be eaten. For that, we need to consider the body's primary mechanisms that specifically regulate how energy is created, maintained and controlled, such as the ANS, Oxidative System and Catabolic/Anabolic processes. And whereas the blood type is static, non-changing, the different balances, strengths and weaknesses in the other fundamental control mechanisms can and do change.

What is most important to know is that every food and every nutrient has very specific stimulatory or inhibitory effects on these fundamental homeostatic control systems that regulate every process in your body at every level of activity. This is why getting the right nutrition is so critical. Moreover, through metabolic typing we have learned that any food or nutrient can have different effects on different metabolic types. As it turns out, the old adage that “one man's food is another's poison” is literally true. Fact is, you can eat the best organic foods, take the best supplements money can buy, get plenty of rest, exercise regularly and still not feel well. Why? Because you did not eat those foods for which your body has a specific, genetically-based requirement. Only through metabolic typing can you be assured that your food will be the medicine God intended it to be.
QUESTION: My sister, my best friend and I all embarked on Dr. Atkins' weight loss program* with gusto, expecting fantastic results. Two of us got them and one of us didn't . . . guess who? I ended up gaining the weight that each of them lost and feeling terrible to boot, and even though I've been off the diet for 3 weeks now, I can't even look at food without putting on more weight! Is there anything in your program that might make a loser out of me? Sounds strange, but I wouldn't mind having that title!

[Note: The Atkins program is a well-known high-protein, high-fat diet. Similar questions have been received in regard to the Pritikin diet, a low-fat, low-protein diet. The same answer would apply to all such questions. -Ed ].

HEALTHEXCEL: Yours is not, by any means, an uncommon problem and illustrates wonderfully the concept of what is referred to as biochemical individuality, which is just a fancy way of saying that you are unique and that therefore, your body has unique requirements for nutrition.

Weight is an important consideration in one's overall picture of health. Each person has a genetically programmed ideal weight. This is simply the weight at which you look and feel your best. While being overweight may be a symptom of imbalance, or even in some cases, lack of health, losing weight is not necessarily the same as obtaining good health. However, empirical findings have found the normalization of weight to be a natural by-product of balancing body chemistry and building health, which results from the natural maximization of your body's energy potential.

There are two main considerations in the healthful and successful process of weight loss through balancing body chemistry. The first and most important, is that you must acquire the right fuel mixture in the nutrients that you ingest. If the food that you eat does not provide the right balance of nutrients for your genetic needs, then it won't be adequately oxidized (burned for energy) in the cells and will end up being stored as fat; and your body's energy levels will be disrupted, causing you to not feel well, besides put on more weight.

The second consideration is the one everyone is familiar with caloric intake. If one continues to take in more calories than are burned, one will gain weight. However, the key is eating the foods that are right for your type. In so doing, you will be balancing your body chemistry, maximizing your energy production, burning your calories more efficiently, and satisfying your appetite because your are supplying your body with all that it needs. The only way to lose weight, keep it off and feel wonderful at the same time, is to balance your body chemistry and maximize your energy potential.

Yael Grauer
03-22-2007, 02:01 PM
Yael-
Are you then saying that with MT'ing you have achieved the body comp and performance you desire?

That's kind of a loaded question. Of course I don't think I'll ever reach the performance I desire, but I'm pretty stoked that all of my numbers have doubled in the past three months. Of course there are a ton of variables involved... and I've been eating more fruit than recommended the past week or so because it's a million degrees out.


I just can not track down a straight answer on what constitutes a "fast vs slow oxidizer".

Fast Oxidizers:
These are the people who process carbohydrates at a fast rate so that
eating carbohydrates alone, or as the dominant part of the meal, leaves them very hungry soon thereafter, what might be called “Chinese Restaurant Syndrome.” They are characterized by having a strong appetite and high energy so long as they have a constant sugar intake. This is because the immediate processing of the carbohydrates into glucose leads to a high demand for insulin, which then causes a high demand for sugar shortly thereafter when the glucose has all been transferred to the cells. What is needed for this type are heavy proteins and fats to slow down the Krebs, or Citric Acid, cycle. Thus, this type needs a “fats and protein” diet as opposed to one weighted heavily in carbohydrates.

Slow Oxidizers:

These people, in contrast, process carbohydrates, the fuel of the Krebs cycle, slowly and do very well on high carbohydrate intake relative to protein and fat intake. Indeed, more protein would only further slow down their oxidative rate and lower their energy and cellular metabolism, leading to increased weight and health problems.



The other descriptions are about autonomic dominant types, sympathetic vs. parasympathetic, but I don't think it matters as much because usu. fast oxidizers do well on the same diet at para-sympathetic dominant and slow oxidizers should follow sympathetic-dominant diets.

I don't think MT is necessary for everyone but I'm just going to assume that everyone from Poliquin to Mercola to my friend who's a dietitian use it because it can be helpful, especially for people who have no idea what foods make them feel nourished. For example my friend had a client who just really couldn't stand red meat but ended up being a fast oxidizer. Apparently aversion to meat is sometimes a symptom of protein deficiency, so you really have to sort through the issues to determine where the aversion is coming from, and not just assume that the person is a slow oxidizer... And I'm sure we all have stories of people who feel awful when they eat too much red meat even though they aren't protein deficient... It's just a tool, a starting place.

Okay, rant over.

Greg Davis
03-23-2007, 04:18 AM
Yael are you a Type O blood type? I was under the impression from Dr. G's comments that I was quoting that Type O's are more likely to be fast oxidizers and Type A's slow oxidizers..

This was part of his comments on the CFit board:
"What this diet has opened my eyes to is the very distinct possibility that my wife's optimal version of this diet is going to be very different than mine--she is a Type A (haven't done her metabolic type yet, although I'm positive she's a slow oxidator), probably needing a whole lot less fat, salt, and animal protein than myself."

I believe the rationale with this is could be linked to Type A blood being developed in line with a farming lifestyle (more vegetable based diet?) for increased bacteria resistance vs. Type O's which have more virus resistance.

So I sent Dr. G an email and he sent the following back the other day:

"The implications of how fast one oxidizes determines whether one should eat more carbs (slow oxidizers burn slow, hence they need "faster-burning" fuel) or more fats and protein (faster burning metabolic fires need "slower burning" fuels."

I don't meant to sound like a big believer in this stuff but I'm just trying to think how this might applicable, IMO there is probably some truth in it but the question is how applicable is it and are the differences actually transferrable to diet choices.

Assuming for a moment there something to this; whether you are on the fast or slow side of the spectrum, how would you change your diet? For me I eat mostly meat, fat, and veggies. Which is usually a serving of meat (ie. 20-50 g PRO), a few tbs of fat, and a serving of vegetables (enough to fill me up). I don't see how this would change much given that I like to be somewhat random/intermittent with my food intake anyway.

Yael Grauer
03-23-2007, 06:18 AM
I'm actually a type A, so the blood type diet doesn't really apply to me at all.

The way that MT is applicable for me and my food choices is not really in percentages but in the types of foods I eat. For example, I started eating more buffalo, beef and dark chicken and a lot less white chicken... and there's certain fruits and other foods I'm not supposed to eat at all and others I'm supposed to emphasize. I don't agree with ALL of their choices, but it was a damn good starting point for me to discover this on my own. And I find that when I follow the (modified) guidelines my energy is more steady, I'm not craving anything or hungry all the time and I feel more clarity and balance emotionally. That's a good enough reason for me, and I don't think it has to be inconsistent with other food choicesor diets...except that it is more intuitive and less about percentages. Though I bet if I tracked the percentages they would be pretty similar for me to some kind of Athlete Zone diet. But in all honesty, I really don't think I need to be micromanaging my diet with ratios of macronutrients and taking detailed notes on everything my whole life. That's counterintuitive to me, to constantly be calculating grams and percentages and imposing strict rules about proportions of portion sizes. I've found that if I'm eating the right high-quality foods my body just kind of knows what it needs and I don't have to look at detailed charts from books for each meal.

Robb Wolf
03-23-2007, 06:42 AM
Thanks Yael, good stuff. I'm just a Luddite. This is why I like the Olifts over PL'ng. Pick the bar up, put it down. No belts, wraps, chains, bands or super suits. Fewer mullets too.

I guess I'm still not seeing more clarity emerge from this than "Minimize grains, legumes and dairy, eat seasonally and locally when possible". Talk about simple and intuitive!

As to the weighing and measuring...if we know exactly what is going down the pie-hole we can make INFORMED decisions about what to do next, otherwise it's just a guess. It's a pain in the ass but it only takes a short time to get this dialed in.

The Zone is too many carbs, too often for me. I tweaked things such that most of the carbs go down post workout. Problem solved.

I'll keep reading up on the links you provided. If there is something to this I want to be able to bring it to clients and the community here...but I am also very suspicious of a lot of the nutritional "wisdom" espoused. paleo/zone/CLC...this stuff works and this is the primary method used by Berardi, Poliquin, Check, Friel (Olympic tri coach). That is pretty compelling for me.

Yael Grauer
03-23-2007, 09:26 PM
We've gotten so civil. :) I like Olifts over PL'ng too.

I guess all I'm saying is that it's working well for me (in that I know what to eat now that will make me feel full and satisfied without cravings, feeling refueled and energetic, not feeling hungry all the time, etc.) I just think it would have been easier to just figure out my metabolic type rather than going on the Zone and calculating proportions and craving carbs because it was too low in fat and then tweaking it, etc. forever. AND also it's been helpful to learn that the TYPE of protein I'm getting is just as important than the percentage. I don't see how it would conflict with minimizing grains/legumes/dairy and eating locally/seasonally, there are plenty of Paleo foods involved, etc. and I think it might even complement the Zone if someone wanted it to...

I understand the reasoning behind weighing and measuring, but writing down WHAT I eat and what my energy levels, emotions and appetite/cravings/etc. are afterwards (this neat little diet check record sheet I got with my metabolic diet) has been much easier than trying to follow some pre-programmed Zone ratios and figuring out it wasn't working, but not knowing why, and then tweaking and tweaking and tweaking (lather, rinse, repeat.)

I would be interested to know if you find anything in there that passes your litmus test. I think Paul Chek uses it actually. At least, there's a link to one of his courses and links to his site on the Health Excel site.

They have an article on maximizing peak performance in athletics through metabolic typing, but I haven't had a chance to read it closely yet.