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View Full Version : Max Fat Loss & Muscle = Workout and eat PM?


Mike ODonnell
03-27-2007, 11:07 AM
Ok....from I see in classic bullet point presentation:
- Metabolism is a direct result of muscle mass
- Fat loss is a direct result of being able to maintain muscle on a restricted calorie diet
- Decreasing insulin resistance (increasing sensitivity) is key to maximum muscle repair and fat loss
- IF increases insulin sensitivity
- Eat low carbs during the day decreases insulin sensitivity
- Carbs are best eating pwo to maximally utilize insulin and store in muscles as well as assisting in shuttling aminos into muscles for repair
- GH is direct influencer for fat loss and muscle gain
- GH goes up with insulin is low (and visa-versa)
- GH is most released (75%) during the first few hours of sleep after 10pm
- Large meals cause insulin to peak but also come down 2-3 hours later
- Agents such as ZMA as most effective as a glucose removal agent (clearing glucose and insulin from the blood)

So...if I would to look at this I would wage to guess that one would want to eat light all day (only proteins and fats), workout in the afternoon, eat like a "Paleo" pig after workout until 7pm (all protein and carbs for 3 hours after working out), stop eating for the night, take some ZMA (shuttle out all the glucose) and go to sleep around 10pm....and from that....would get the maximum affect of repairing/gaining muscle while optimizing all fat loss hormones. (pretty much sounds like the Warrior Diet meets Paleo meets IF)


Also going by this study that Neal posted at one time:
Keim NL, Van Loan MD, Horn WF, Barbieri TF, Mayclin PL.
Weight loss is greater with consumption of large morning meals and fat-free mass is preserved with large evening meals in women on a controlled weight reduction regimen. J Nutr. 1997 Jan;127(1):75-82.

The purpose of this study was to determine whether meal ingestion pattern [large morning meals (AM) vs. large evening meals (PM)] affects changes in body weight, body composition or energy utilization during weight loss. Ten women completed a metabolic ward study of 3-wk weight stabilization followed by 12 wk of weight loss with a moderately energy restricted diet [mean energy intake +/- SD = 107 +/- 6 kJ/(kg.d)] and regular exercise. The weight loss phase was divided into two 6-wk periods. During period 1, 70% of daily energy intake was taken as two meals in the AM (n = 4) or in the PM (n = 6). Subjects crossed over to the alternate meal time in period 2. Both weight loss and fat-free mass loss were greater with the AM than the PM meal pattern: 3.90 +/- 0.19 vs. 3.27 +/- 0.26 kg/6 wk, P < 0.05, and 1.28 +/- 0.14 vs. 0.25 +/- 0.16 kg/6 wk, P < 0.001, respectively. Change in fat mass and loss of body energy were affected by order of meal pattern ingestion. The PM pattern resulted in greater loss of fat mass in period 1 (P < 0.01) but not in period 2. Likewise, resting mid-afternoon fat oxidation rate was higher with the PM pattern in period 1 (P < 0.05) but not in period 2, corresponding with the fat mass changes. To conclude, ingestion of larger AM meals resulted in slightly greater weight loss, but ingestion of larger PM meals resulted in better maintenance of fat-free mass. Thus, incorporation of larger PM meals in a weight loss regimen may be important in minimizing the loss of fat-free mass.

Sounds like a better option than the Zone....or am I just thinking way too much again?

Pierre Auge
03-27-2007, 11:22 AM
Mike,
sounds almost exactly like what I suggested to Robb and what I was doing over a year ago and exactly what I am doing now!

What I fell upon back then through experimentation and had great success with, I've developed a significantly greater understanding of over the past year +! Thanks mostly to all of you fine folks.

I like the Zone because it works, until it doesn't! I like IF because it works, until you can't do it anymore. I like the warrior diet because I don't have to think! I like this because it is easily implemented and suggests the best of all worlds!!!

Mike ODonnell
03-27-2007, 11:44 AM
Pierre,

What kind of body comp changes have you experienced with the above? Such as increased muscle and decreased fat? Also what modifications have you made if any? Just going by the scientific facts...it almost seems like the ideal protocol...of course lots of variations...off (non-training) days no carbs at pm? or still carbs at pm? Better results with off days IF? lots of fun stuff to play with. I hate counting calories...and just will not live like that...hence I can't do the zone...but I can "eyeball" protein sizes and fat and feel great. Plus the whole insulin lowering affect of a PM carb/protein feeding 2-3 hours later can only help in the GH response during sleep....ZMA would be the nail in the coffin so to speak....and then let the GH fest begin!

Pierre Auge
03-27-2007, 12:46 PM
Pierre,

What kind of body comp changes have you experienced with the above? Such as increased muscle and decreased fat? Also what modifications have you made if any?

Ok here's the story:

Mid 2004 - Mid 2005 Attempted the Warrior Diet

I had success with this protocol for some time and had leaned out quite a bit. I had started out at 170lbs at 5'5" and most of it being fat. I had been messing with kettlebells and PTP type crap for some time along with some stuff back from my early rec. gymnastics days and martial arts days. I had started mixing CrossFit into this mix around this time but noticed that I couldn't maintain my activity levels. So I was wishy washy back and forth.

In hind sight it my food choices were really bad! 99% of the time though the protocol was fine. I still got decent results when I stopped I was around >150lbs.

Mid 2005 - Started hitting CrossFit pretty hard, WOD in the AM and training skills throughout the day.

My diet at this point was very poor and my weight stabilized at around 160lbs.

September 2005 - Started the Zone! By December I was 135lbs...

The Zone + CrossFit did the job a little too well. In my eagerness I went into a caloric deficit that was far too low and it was obvious though I was ripped. My energy levels at this point were pretty low. (wasn't adding fat)

December 2005 - I started adding IF in on rest days

My energy levels went back up when I added IF to my rest days and I really hit it hard again. I swear by the time I got to SC in January I was <5% BF, at 135lbs.

Feb 2006 - I met Robb & Greg in SC and listened intently to there chats and opinions.

Started what we are now describing full time, by the end of April I was 155lbs ~6-8% BF, very lean, and stronger. I was in the best shape of my life just then.

I was doing a light WOD in the morning for PT giving about 2/3 effort. Fast of water and coffee. Then I would train again after work and go balls out. I would commence eating about 30 minutes after working out. Sooner then that and I wouldn't keep it down most of the time.

I'm in the midst of trying to rekindle this effort I only started a few days ago but my energy levels are already starting to rise even though I sleep very little. I'm not working out with the same volume I was then. My current living conditions are crap and do not promote performance. Though the ZMA seems to be improing the quality of the sleep that I am getting!!!

I don't know if they sells these at costco in the US but I'm going to start eating a 1.8kg can of tuna every other day after I workout in the eveneing... I should get sufficient lean protein in that case. The cans are only $8.00. $8.00/day ain't bad for that much protein.

Robb Wolf
03-27-2007, 01:18 PM
MOD-
Great stuff. The Zone is good )IMO) for helping to dial in what reasonable portion sizes are AND it provides very exacting feedback and control. Need to gain muscle? We can ratchet one up to a 5x5 (5 meals per day, 5 blocks per meal, 5x fat) and i think that comes out to 5,200 cals! Most folks will grow on that or some permutation of those numbers. If need be we could even go 6 meals at that ratio. That is a mountain of food...if the training stimulus is there, we will see growth, especially if we allocate a large number of those carbs to the PWO period.

Conversely if we need to lean someone out really easily and precisely with the Zone works pretty damn well. I'm the first to admit that the counting is a pain in the ass, even once one has dialed in the eyeball method. The zone fits into intermittent fasting if one wants to bring in some additional precision but is by no means necessary. Apologies if I'm re-stating the obvious...just rambling here.

Regarding the study...its interesting and I think telling about our metabolism. The PM eaters still lost weight but more was fat. They mention some exercise was performed, I'm guessing it was cardio. Resistance training will spare muscle mass even at significant caloric restriction levels so long as there is not overt insulin resistance (muscle will virtually melt away under these circumstances as it gets converted to glucose via gluco-neogenesis). So...I think your plan is good. Eat later in the evening, hit a dose of carbs post WO...use intermittent fasting to foster insulin resistance and whatever goodies it has to offer...and no counting of the Zone.

I remember Shaf posted a link to some studies showing that shifting most of ones protein allotment to the PWO period was better than spread through the day. This punctuated approach with significant variation in intakes and timing makes sense. Most effective strength training protocols have a strong intensity element. It has always made sense to me that an intensity and variability element with regards to nutrition would also be optimum.

Derek Simonds
03-27-2007, 02:27 PM
I am toying with the IF approach and really like what MOD outlined. My biggest challenge is that I workout fairly early for strength and in the evenings with my BJJ.

I also happen to truly love breakfast. Not necessarily the food just the meal and time of day. Eating after my drive home from grappling is a no brainer and I can down the calories.

Using the same type of scheduling I could IF and PM feed 4 days a week and eat PWO early 3 days a week. That would add some of the variability that Robb was discussing and still accomplish the night time feeding 4 days a week.

MOD are you going to keep a log here or on another site?

Elliot Royce
03-27-2007, 03:14 PM
1.8kg of tuna before bed? Wow!

Steve Liberati
03-27-2007, 03:45 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and risk looking like a complete ass. So it be. You guys already know I speak from experience based on what has worked for me and my clients. I will leave the scientific stuff to Robb and others. I won't even try to attempt to articulate the science and theory behind IF. All I know is that it works. Grant it, the evolutionary orgins behind it should be enough to convince even the most stubborn naysayer, experimentation thru trial-n-error should be the nail in the coffin. As I mentioned in a previous post, I personally prefer the 12-6 eating curfew and have noticed dramatic changes over the last several months. Performance, body comp, energy levels, strength levels, etc the list goes on....
Anyway, the only point I'll try to make here is this:
Set aside the peer-reviewed studies, the scientific data, the theory's and everything else text and online...stop looking for that final authority, stamp of approval or breakthrough article in Science Daily or BBC Science and just give it a shot and try it out for yourself.

IF works! Its as simple as that:) In other words, quit searching for the perfect recipe and just start throwing together some ingredients. Actually Rob made it very simple for us and gave us all the ingredients we need. Now its a matter of tinkering with ratios and finding what works for YOU.

And counting calories is flat out retarded. Fat people do that!
If you need a scale to tell you that you have too much food on your plate than you probably do. Instead be practical and eyeball a fist size of food. Better yet, after activity go ahead and eat a generous portion. Without activity watch your intake and eat less.

KISS,
Steve

Mike ODonnell
03-27-2007, 03:55 PM
Great feedback...I'm more of a night person...always have been so it actually fits right into my schedule....my plan is to get where I measure nothing...don't have to cook all the time and still maintain muscle and burn fat....

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and risk looking like a complete ass. So it be.

Set aside the peer-reviewed studies, the scientific data, the theory's and everything else text and online...stop looking for that final authority, stamp of approval or breakthrough article in Science Daily or BBC Science and just give it a shot and try it out for yourself.
It's so Be It.....Ebonic Speaking Caveman. :D
As for the other stuff....can't help it...my personality to know how something works 100%...because then I can relate it better to people..plus I sound smarter....and I need all the help I can get!

MOD are you going to keep a log here or on another site?

Going with the whole "I dont want to count portions or calories routine..."..probably not...but I can tell you what I have done lately and so far so good.

9am - Coffee and a little half and half
11am - Eat P+F+V
2pm - Eat P+F+V
Pre WO - Aminos + 1 scoop Whey
5pm - Workout
PWO - Aminos + Whey + Creatine + dextrose (will dump this later I feel)
7pm - Party Time....eat P+C....as much as I can stomach....

P=protein, C=Carbs, V=veg, F=fat
Protein is around 200-250g/day, Carbs will be around 150g (with 75%+ being PWO) and Fat...well it makes up the rest...

I also add a scoop of Whey and water 1st thing in the AM right now....not sure if that really has any affect....but I figure keep it for now....drop it later....see if it really makes a difference....I am guessing probably not.

Non-workout days or running/biking days....will just drop the PWO drink all together and keep a meal about an hour after with P+C. Also I eat fruit here and there with the meals...not much, some strawberries...blueberries, etc....probably keep them to PWO time. Weekends....well rest assured Sat night it will involve some Paleo Buffalo Wings and Guiness!

Remember I am 13% BF right now....so I am also trying to gain lean while losing....if you are looking more for just fat loss....dont do the PWO shake...in the end...I may drop that all together too just to see the difference in recovery and performance.

Actually this thread was more about why working out at night and nightime eating is more beneficial than the other way around.....and making sure I had all my scientific ducks in a row....just to piss off Steve. :D

Robb Wolf
03-27-2007, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence Steve! I actually cooked this up in the hopes of derailing Greg Everett's athleticism when he was kicking my ass at everything. Somehow however it actually works....thus there was no respite in my fanny kicking...

Greg Davis
03-27-2007, 05:42 PM
I'm sure its better than zone but don't really agree with pigging out after 7pm being a good idea.

I don't know your schedule but for me I usually wake up at 6-6.30am and go to sleep around 10-11pm so for me to eat after 7pm just doesn't work for me anymore.. I find eating late gives you a food 'hangover' the next day. Whereas if I give myself a change to feel an empty stomach before bed I am money the next day.

Obviously depends on your goals but I think Steve's 12-6 idea is more badass and would give even better results.

Personally I need a bit more time to get meals in due to my job being mostly in an office so I don't have much flexibility. Right now I'm trying:
-having something really light before work (ie. either a small piece of fruit or small bowl of soup) on an empty stomach
-then have 3 P+F+V meals throughout the day but before 6pm
-on top of that I often have a light serving of veggies when I get home but all my eating is done before 6pm.
-intermittently skip meals depending on stuff going on at work, plans after etc.
-if i need snack on the go (rarely) ill bring out some almonds/pecans
-after exercise possibly a shake (hemp protein, coconut milk, avacado,berries)

I've lost a little bit of weight but I'm lean as ever and climbing my highest rated routes ever (I've only been climbing < 2 years).

Mike ODonnell
03-27-2007, 05:46 PM
Pigging out like a "paleo pig" I should say......I can't even eat that much...since it is all protein, fruits, veg and other carbs from sweet potatoes and the like.....not referring to ice cream and cookies...although that does sound good....also I meant to refer I was eating at 7pm...until I was full...so say 7:30pm I am done....and then let the glucose and insulin drop just in time for bed somewhere around 10-10:30pm. Nothing in between...except water. That usually leaves me hungry at 10pm....quick metabolism...

Steve Liberati
03-27-2007, 07:13 PM
Actually this thread was more about why working out at night and nightime eating is more beneficial than the other way around.....and making sure I had all my scientific ducks in a row....just to piss off Steve.

Its cool Mike. The hidden truth is I envy your talent to ask a question and answer it yourself in your own thread:) Not many people can do that:p

"So be it"...lol. It's not my fault I can't write a sentence...Sylvia Learning Center wasn't around 5 million yrs ago when we invented FIRE so back off buddy! :D

And mind you its not easy learning Caveman ebonics! It took me the last 5 years un-schooling myself from 22 yrs of being warped by an education system that prides itself on complicating life as much as possible with theorems, supply n demand graphs, and other useless educational tools.
What about spear chucking? Still don't get why the wife gets mad when I tell her our son's first toy will be a spear:confused: Little does she know I'm dead serious about it hehe...

Mike ODonnell
03-28-2007, 06:03 AM
I envy your talent to ask a question and answer it yourself in your own thread

The voices in my head do that....we are getting along right now...but a while back we had a fight over a girl....one of them slept with her....

Robb Wolf
03-28-2007, 04:42 PM
The voices in my head do that....we are getting along right now...but a while back we had a fight over a girl....one of them slept with her....

Dude...good luck hiding THAT from yourself.