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Helder Castro
06-16-2014, 03:38 AM
I need to improve my leg strength and although this 4 week cycle looks just what i need, i have some questions regarding the squat frequency :

1) I'm a master lifter and i doubt i'll recover properly from 3 squat sessions per week,i'm thinking of extending the cycle two more weeks and only squatting twice per week ,what do you think ?

2) The program has halting deadlifts (snatch/c & j) but the calculation based on my snatch/clean jerk has me deadlifting with 60/80kg ,can i increase the weigths here above my max snatch/clean & jerk?? I was thinking adding 20%??

3) As i will be extending the cycle , how should i proceed regarding the loads used on all the other days/exercises?? Maybe using the same??

Thank you ;)

Greg Everett
06-17-2014, 09:27 AM
Just spread out the program all together if you don't think you'll recover.

Yes, you can increase the pull/DL weights by feel if they're too light.

Helder Castro
06-20-2014, 03:06 AM
Just spread out the program all together if you don't think you'll recover.

Yes, you can increase the pull/DL weights by feel if they're too light.

Thank you Greg :)

Helder Castro
07-22-2014, 06:09 AM
Update and request for advice on the 4week leg strength block:

As i previously mentioned,being 40years old makes recovery harder so i decided to extend the cycle to 6 weeks,unfortunately i wasn't able to squat friday the last heavy session and tried to do it yesterday at the beginning of what should be the deload week,8x3 but the strength just wasn't there ...i won't refer what load i'm using,it's too embarrasing :(

Should i stick to the plan and try a 1rm at the end of this week or simply run over the program,although with an lower estimated 1rm??

Or end the cycle and start the 2nd block??

Thank you in advance


Helder

Greg Everett
07-22-2014, 11:09 AM
Go ahead and try a 1RM - either way you're going to start something new next week, so you might as well see what you can do first.

Helder Castro
07-29-2014, 07:03 AM
Go ahead and try a 1RM - either way you're going to start something new next week, so you might as well see what you can do first.

Thank you Greg,i did that.Got a number lower than the max i estimated for the first block,guess i was a bit too ambitious.Let's see how it works this time...

Fadi Chemaissem
08-02-2014, 11:10 PM
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Fadi Chemaissem
08-09-2014, 01:05 AM
I need to improve my leg strength and although this 4 week cycle looks just what i need, i have some questions regarding the squat frequency

Hi Helder,

How much do you really need to have your leg strength increased?! Yes, I am making a point of this "need". If you really need to increase the strength of your legs, then obviously you would need to squat, that's a no brainer. However if you need to provide yourself with the opportunity for maximum strength gains in the shortest amount of time possible, then a daily squat program would be the best way to go in my opinion.

1) I'm a master lifter and i doubt i'll recover properly from 3 squat sessions per week,i'm thinking of extending the cycle two more weeks and only squatting twice per week ,what do you think ?Ok, so you're a master lifter. Says who that there should be a doubt allowed to enter your psyche based on your age? I know that you are saying it, and more than likely believing it as well. My question is simply this: why?

As i previously mentioned,being 40years old makes recovery harder so i decided to extend the cycle to 6 weeks,unfortunately i wasn't able to squat friday the last heavy session and tried to do it yesterday at the beginning of what should be the deload week,8x3 but the strength just wasn't there ...i won't refer what load i'm using,it's too embarrasing Granted, I am speaking from (much) silence about your background Helder. But still, I am basing my words (and thoughts) on none other than my own self, and my own experience. I'm very much aware that we're not discussing the technique or the speed (or lack thereof) that would see you go under that bar in (say) a clean no,...we're merely discussing a brute strength movement that is the squat. So (doubt of recovery aside), would you or are you able to afford yourself the time to squat 7 days a week?

Sorry, I haven't asked, but what is your ultimate goal in all of this?

Open for discussion...



Fadi.

Andrew Kenis
08-09-2014, 08:55 AM
I agree w/ Fadi. You said:

2) The program has halting deadlifts (snatch/c & j) but the calculation based on my snatch/clean jerk has me deadlifting with 60/80kg ,can i increase the weigths here above my max snatch/clean & jerk?? I was thinking adding 20%??

... and like Gregg said, sure. Add weight if you're goal is to squat more and increase strength.

But... do why do you think you need the leg strength? It's not always applicable nor necessary to our goal of snatching and clean and jerking more weight. And I would add that it may in fact be counter productive by reducing training time necessary for the classic lifts and robing recovery ability.

Say you increased the snatch deadlift to 72kg, and assume that's the weight you're looking at toward the end of the program for say sets of three. Since our training in deadlifts is an overload of the snatch, this should give us the strength capability to snatch something 10-20% less, probably at least 58kg. Can you snatch that? If not, then I would say you have disproportionate leg strength, and you wasted time and recovery ability gaining it.

And I'm more master than you (48). But here's an example of my previous program where my snatch/cj goals where 145/180 (and let's pretend I'm using kilos). Using Takano's programing book, I set up proportionate max goals for my FS and BS. The snatch/cj ratio is right at 80%. I used a BS/cj ratio of 1.4, yielding a max BS of around 250 (which might even be a little high, as he says you only NEED 1.3 ratio). My FS max of 195 was based on 1.1 x my Clean and Jerk goal (and again, he say's you only need 1.05 x cj). Now I never did a 250 BS at the end of my program (pretty sure I could), but throughout the program my squatting was based on percentages of that 250.

In reality, after having previously been doing Gregg's Basic Beginner program (consistently adding weight), I had already been doing sets of 3 at 235! So I really didn't need, nor want to increase my leg strength. I had enough. Consequently, my squatting throughout the program was relatively easy and not taxing upon my recovery capabilities. At the end of the program I exceeded my goals and snatched 155 and clean and jerked 190 (again... let's pretend that's kilos).

Blake Barnes
08-09-2014, 07:06 PM
Ok, so you're a master lifter. Says who that there should be a doubt allowed to enter your psyche based on your age? I know that you are saying it, and more than likely believing it as well. My question is simply this: why?


He's worried about his ability to recover because, according to science, the older you get the the harder it is on your body to recover. I'm not saying a daily squat program would be impossible for a 40-year-old but you're not taking into account the unmeasurable factors: work, family life, travel, etc. I'm sure he'd be fine if all he did was eat, sleep and train.

It's probable that he's lifted enough to find out he doesn't have the phenomenal recovery time to be squatting everyday. If you look at his post from "07-22-2014" he missed his squats that day so apparently he's got life-things going on.



Sorry, I haven't asked, but what is your ultimate goal in all of this?


I don't want to speak for him but I think his ultimate goal is to get his legs stronger.

Blake Barnes
08-09-2014, 07:49 PM
... and like Gregg said, sure. Add weight if you're goal is to squat more and increase strength.


First of all, he didn't say that. He said... Yes, you can increase the pull/DL weights by feel if they're too light.

But... do why do you think you need the leg strength? It's not always applicable nor necessary to our goal of snatching and clean and jerking more weight. And I would add that it may in fact be counter productive by reducing training time necessary for the classic lifts and robing recovery ability.
[/QUOTE]

If you don't think leg strength is important then you're in trouble. How do you think people have the ability to lift a heavy load from the floor to the mid-thigh or stand up from a Clean?

Some people may be able to rack a weight but struggle to stand up with it. That is a lack of leg strength.



And I'm more master than you (48). But here's an example of my previous program where my snatch/cj goals where 145/180 (and let's pretend I'm using kilos). Using Takano's programing book, I set up proportionate max goals for my FS and BS. The snatch/cj ratio is right at 80%. I used a BS/cj ratio of 1.4, yielding a max BS of around 250 (which might even be a little high, as he says you only NEED 1.3 ratio). My FS max of 195 was based on 1.1 x my Clean and Jerk goal (and again, he say's you only need 1.05 x cj). Now I never did a 250 BS at the end of my program (pretty sure I could), but throughout the program my squatting was based on percentages of that 250.


This also go into the ratios you started talking about. If your squats don't increase, what makes you think your Snatch/C&J will increase? (If they are proportionate to each other).

Plus Takano said your Front Squat "should be at the very least 105% of the 100% C&J. It would of course be valuable to have the front squat figure be higher, and this can hopefully be achieved as the development of the athlete progresses." So it kind of sounds like you're skewing his perspective on the subject.

Fadi Chemaissem
08-09-2014, 10:23 PM
He's worried about his ability to recover because, according to science, the older you get the the harder it is on your body to recover. I'm not saying a daily squat program would be impossible for a 40-year-old but you're not taking into account the unmeasurable factors: work, family life, travel, etc. I'm sure he'd be fine if all he did was eat, sleep and train.

It's probable that he's lifted enough to find out he doesn't have the phenomenal recovery time to be squatting everyday. If you look at his post from "07-22-2014" he missed his squats that day so apparently he's got life-things going on.



I don't want to speak for him but I think his ultimate goal is to get his legs stronger.

Hello Blake, and thanks for your input mate, I appreciate it.

Okay, let us delve a bit deeper shall we...and examine what has been said so far.

I am fully aware of one thing above all else, and that is the desire of someone wishing to accomplish a particular goal, and in fact doing what is required or what is necessary to achieve it. Sure, you may say I'm too narrowly focused, and I'm fine with that Sir.

You used the word "unmeasurable" when describing other life's factors, or commitments if you will. I say that those factors are unmeasurable only if you make them so. You see Blake, we do have a choice in what we're discussing here, and we do have some control over how we conduct or manage our lives. When I decided to make my comment on this thread, I did it whilst being fully aware of what you have called "the unmeasurable factors". You also alluded to science when it came to the point of age and the ability to recover. Sir, we can discuss this subject of recovery and overtraining at length if you wish, however I can assure you that even at the elite level of weightlifting training (where I was at), would still not see you overtraining or under recovering. Sure, there were times when we went for what is called over reaching, a planned way of pushing the boundaries and force physical adaptation to be gained in the process.

You may be saying yeh yeh Fadi but you're still not taking Helder's age of 40 into consideration. To that I would simply say, I am! If Helder wishes to gain strength in his legs beyond his expectation, I'm saying (confidently saying mind you) that it is very much possible in minimum amount of time, despite all the commitment that a typical 40 year old family man usually faces. Only one single problem standing in the way Blake: the level of Helder's desire and belief system. Belief in one's self when it comes to the sport of weightlifting is another subject altogether. So I'll leave it here for now and look forward to your response Sir.



Fadi.

Blake Barnes
08-11-2014, 11:31 AM
Fadi,

When I say unmeasurable, I mean these are things that are unmanageable and uncontrollable. Say his job requires him to take on a last minute project that is so time sensitive that over-time hours are necessary. He can't just say he's not going to work over-time because he's on a crazy squat cycle and needs to rest. Maybe his car breaks down on the side of the road and needs to change the tire -- that's an hour wasted. Now he's missed and hour of training and/or recovering plus the added stress of changing that tire. I can go on and on with these "unmeasurable factors."

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Helder is not and elite weightlifter such as yourself. I don't know exactly how an elite weightlifter's way of life is in Australia but I assume you were well treated with all of the tools needed to become said elite-level weightlifter. Meals, supplements, closely monitored sleep schedule, body treatment specialist/massages, and maybe even a stipend as compensation for being so elite. You may have also started at an earlier age than Helder. Therefore you're body (joints/ligaments/muscles - basically the entire kinetic chain) is naturally more developed and able to take on the stresses of a daily squat program.

I'm not doubting or underestimating the power of the mind. But I'm assuming Helder's training is more for recreational and health purposes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against a daily squat routine. I just don't think it's for everyone.

Helder Castro
08-14-2014, 05:13 AM
Well,didn't noticed this thread had developed like this :D

Fadi,

Why i need to increase my leg strength??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJHCGis3X6Q&list=UUC_bEzjlSyGNif47zliHiyg

As you can see,hard to recover from cleans.Maybe i'm wrong but i don't think i have many technique issues,well,the jerk has always been weak but it's getting more consistent.I tested my back squat max at the end of the catalyst 4 week block,which i extended and missed 120kg:rolleyes: ,a weigth that many girls can squat for reps.
Could i squat everyday? No,my gym is closed at weekends and my knees don't tolerate more than 3 squat sessions a week,being that one of them is ligth,all this besides the leg work in cleans and snatches.
Currently i'm even working part-time(6hours),had to drop college due to my mom's health issues.
I'm a recreational lifter,competing once or twice a year,so although i'm serious about my hobby,i'm conscious of my limits.

Andrew, i'm aware of takano's guidelines,i even e-mailed him about that.Greater leg strength means bigger lifts.

Blake,your advice was correct,i need to improve my leg strength.