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Craig Cooper
04-03-2007, 04:13 PM
This may have already been covered before, but I was reading Eade's blog, and found some interesting info regarding PWO Nutrition. He was debunking a couple of exercise physiologists' debunking of the "Top 10 Nutrition Myths", and had this to say about PWO Nutrition:

"As you workout, you breakdown muscle tissue and release amino acids back into the amino acid pool. They are reharvested to repair the muscle as needed. But since part of the repair process is to make the muscle larger and/or more dense, extra amino acids are ultimately required. One of the things that stimulates the growth of muscle tissue is the growth hormone released during strenuous training. If you down a high-carb snack or drink immediately after your workout, it is adios growth hormone. Carbs basically shut off the release of this important hormone, so if youíre going to eat immediately after a workout, eat fat and protein. Fat and protein provide the immune support to heal the muscle and provide the raw materials for growth. Last time I checked there wasnít a whole lot of carbohydrate in the muscle structure."

Complete Blog Entry (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=617)

Steve Liberati
04-03-2007, 04:49 PM
While I personally subscribe to the Eades/DeVaney school of thought on PWO, I think a good argument can be made from either side. Both sides essentially have science on their side. One favoring glycogen replenishment for maximum recovery and muscle gain, while other favoring maximum hormone regulation.
Overall, I think the best approach is found by catering your pwo meal to your goals and the intensity of your workout. An athlete practicing sport training hard, heavy, fast and frequent should make it priority to eat carbs/protein pwo. On the other hand, beginners or most regulars joes looking to improve health, body comp, performance, etc...can nix the pwo shake in favor of protein/fat meal and reap all the same benefits and then some....
I'm convinced these days...much of the lit and recommendations for carbs pwo is fueled by profits....just think "splurge." That stuff can't possibly be good for you!

Mike ODonnell
04-03-2007, 05:14 PM
I've seen research to debunk that whole "carbs shut down GH" after exercise....I can't remember where....maybe DeVanny or someplace....but I really don't pay attention to it....if your goal is fat loss....you are better off not doing an immediate PWO and waiting...for performance I think pwo is key after glycolitic draining training....Robb can give all the details on who needs what in the latest PM....but it will all come down to personal fine tuning and seeing what works best as we have individualistic energy expenditures of fat/carb and different levels of insulin resistance/sensitivity......

Neal Winkler
04-03-2007, 06:12 PM
Oh yeah, I was supposed to show Dr. Eades the studies that show PWO carb ingestion doesn't shut down GH. Forgot all about it.

Gittit Shwartz
04-03-2007, 06:26 PM
Just an observation: personally, after 2 hours' intensive training (Capoeira) and sweating copiously, what I really crave is water...and salt! It's hard to tell whether it makes a difference in the long run, eating whole foods or whey protein, immediately or an hour after training, but i find the salt I put in it (in my chocolate whey protein powder too) is what makes the difference between crashing 10 minutes later or being good for another hour of fooling around. My post workout drink of choice would be pickle juice! I'm guessing i need to replenish the sodium I sweat out - experts?

Mike ODonnell
04-03-2007, 06:27 PM
Oh yeah, I was supposed to show Dr. Eades the studies that show PWO carb ingestion doesn't shut down GH. Forgot all about it.

"In summary, these data indicate that consuming a nutritional supplement before and immediately after heavy-resistance training workouts performed over 3 consecutive days results in different exercise-induced patterns of metabolic and hormonal variables. Specifically, consuming a protein-carbohydrate supplement before and after a resistance training session increases the concentrations of glucose, insulin, growth hormone, and IGF-I while decreasing lactate accumulation. Such responses would be predicted to enhance glycogen and protein synthesis during recovery; however, this was not determined in this investigation. These responses were observed in a group of moderately resistance-trained men and may not apply to other populations (i.e., untrained individuals, women, etc.). These data demonstrate that protein-carbohydrate supplementation before and after training may alter the metabolic and hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise."
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/85/4/1544

feel free to pass that along to him.........

Robb Wolf
04-04-2007, 10:23 AM
MOD-

Good stuff. Does anyone know if protein, protein/fat has been studied in the pre-post WO scenario? I think I remember Dan John mentioning Tom Fahey found that ~20g protein pre WO caused the greatest increase in anabolic hormones.

Steve touched on this but I think it is important to note that different goals may necessitate different approaches. From personal experience the protein/fat post WO meal leaves me feeling great and it is easy to remain very lean...but I can not maintain lactate type crossfit WOD's very easily on that sched.

Robb Wolf
04-04-2007, 10:26 AM
Just an observation: personally, after 2 hours' intensive training (Capoeira) and sweating copiously, what I really crave is water...and salt! It's hard to tell whether it makes a difference in the long run, eating whole foods or whey protein, immediately or an hour after training, but i find the salt I put in it (in my chocolate whey protein powder too) is what makes the difference between crashing 10 minutes later or being good for another hour of fooling around. My post workout drink of choice would be pickle juice! I'm guessing i need to replenish the sodium I sweat out - experts?

Pickle Juice! You are a wild man! Gittit, you eat a pretty low carb paleo diet so you may not hang on to much sodium given the low insulin levels. If you feel an immediate improvement in performance that is pretty compelling.

R. Alan Hester
04-04-2007, 02:49 PM
I have started drinking 8 oz of egg whites (from egg whites international purchased through Coach Rutís Fitness Conduit (http://coachrut.blogspot.com/)) mixed with 1 table spoon of olive oil.

8 oz of egg whites =5 protein blocks
1 Tbsp of olive oil =9 fat blocks


It is a bit slimy, but very convenient.

Gittit Shwartz
04-04-2007, 03:30 PM
Pickle Juice! You are a wild man! Gittit, you eat a pretty low carb paleo diet so you may not hang on to much sodium given the low insulin levels. If you feel an immediate improvement in performance that is pretty compelling.

Robb, I'm a girl!
No worries though...

Steve Shafley
04-04-2007, 03:44 PM
I first consumed pickle juice during a long, hot rugby tournament in the early 90s. I was cramping up and one of the old guys told me to try some, and damn me if it didn't help, very quickly.

If I needed it, I could stomach it, however, there was no way I could drink it in any normal situation.

Robb Wolf
04-04-2007, 03:57 PM
Robb, I'm a girl!
No worries though...
Wild Wo-man? Sorry about that!:p

Sam Lepore
04-04-2007, 06:59 PM
A few years back the Philadelphia Eagles trainer used Pickle Juice during a really HOT game. The opposing players were passing out and cramping due to the heat. Not the Eagles! I think they actually made T-shirts about it. Eagle fans were talking about Pickle Juice for a long time. It was hilarious.

It worked good. Not good enough for us to win the Super bowl that year though. :mad:

Go birds!

Allen Yeh
04-05-2007, 02:55 AM
I first consumed pickle juice during a long, hot rugby tournament in the early 90s. I was cramping up and one of the old guys told me to try some, and damn me if it didn't help, very quickly.

If I needed it, I could stomach it, however, there was no way I could drink it in any normal situation.

I do like a pickle now and then but the thought of it drinking the juice from the jar makes me ill.

"I will not drink it Sam I am....."

Craig Cooper
04-05-2007, 08:47 AM
I have started drinking 8 oz of egg whites (from egg whites international purchased through Coach Rut’s Fitness Conduit (http://coachrut.blogspot.com/)) mixed with 1 table spoon of olive oil.

8 oz of egg whites =5 protein blocks
1 Tbsp of olive oil =9 fat blocks


It is a bit slimy, but very convenient.

1 Tbsp Olive Oil = 4.5 fat blocks (http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-oils-olive_f-Y2lkPTExNzQyJmJpZD0xJmZpZD05Njg3NSZlaWQ9MTM3MDIzMD Q4JnBvcz0xJnBhcj0ma2V5PW9saXZlIG9pbA.html)

hollis petri
04-05-2007, 10:35 AM
"From personal experience the protein/fat post WO meal leaves me feeling great and it is easy to remain very lean"

Hi Robb, in the above case, are you getting 0 grams carbs or just a few. At what point is the number of grams of carbs great enough that it's not really just a Protein/Fat PWO. 5-10-More?

I'd like to do just a protein/fats pwo but i usually will eat some nuts with a lean protein source and maybe some greens+. However the nuts and greens+ adds 10ish grams of carbs, so my assumption is that's a Protein/Fat/Carb PWO even if the carbs are very minimal.

Thanks
Hollis

R. Alan Hester
04-05-2007, 11:51 AM
1 Tbsp Olive Oil = 4.5 fat blocks (http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-oils-olive_f-Y2lkPTExNzQyJmJpZD0xJmZpZD05Njg3NSZlaWQ9MTM3MDIzMD Q4JnBvcz0xJnBhcj0ma2V5PW9saXZlIG9pbA.html)

Maybe my math is off, but 1/3 tsp of olive oil=1 block of fat, according to CFJ 21. If that is the case, then 1 Tbsp of olive oil, which contains 3 tsp of olive oil, would = 9 blocks.

Robb Wolf
04-05-2007, 01:24 PM
"From personal experience the protein/fat post WO meal leaves me feeling great and it is easy to remain very lean"

Hi Robb, in the above case, are you getting 0 grams carbs or just a few. At what point is the number of grams of carbs great enough that it's not really just a Protein/Fat PWO. 5-10-More?

I'd like to do just a protein/fats pwo but i usually will eat some nuts with a lean protein source and maybe some greens+. However the nuts and greens+ adds 10ish grams of carbs, so my assumption is that's a Protein/Fat/Carb PWO even if the carbs are very minimal.

Thanks
Hollis

Hollis-
I think that is fine and pretty much what I do. I'm not sure where the line is with regards to "too many" carbs. Either way the slow release of the nuts and veggies is not a problem at all IMO.

Craig Cooper
04-05-2007, 02:41 PM
Maybe my math is off, but 1/3 tsp of olive oil=1 block of fat, according to CFJ 21. If that is the case, then 1 Tbsp of olive oil, which contains 3 tsp of olive oil, would = 9 blocks.

Click on the link I provided. Also, if you look at the nutrition info on your olive oil bottle, it will show the same thing as on calorieking.com, and nutritiondata.com

R. Alan Hester
04-05-2007, 03:13 PM
Click on the link I provided. Also, if you look at the nutrition info on your olive oil bottle, it will show the same thing as on calorieking.com, and nutritiondata.com





I looked at your link and according to it, 1 Tbsp of olive oil equals 9 blocks of fat. Here is why: 13.5/ 1.5= 9.

Maybe someone needs to explain this to me in special english, because I just ain’t getting it.

Here is what your link provided:
Nutrition Facts for 1Tbsp of olive oil

Calories 119
(Kilojoules 499)

Value*
Total Fat
13.5 g 21%

Steve Liberati
04-05-2007, 05:28 PM
At what point is the number of grams of carbs great enough that it's not really just a Protein/Fat PWO. 5-10-More?


If I remember correctly, Berardi contends carbs exceeding 10 grams in a meal creates a synergistic insulin response when combined with fat. As the theory goes (macronutrient separation) any time large amounts of carbohydrates are consumed in a meal, insulin is released from the pancreas in order to transport glucose into the muscle and fat cells (especially the muscle cells). Unfortunately, in the presence of insulin, dietary fat is more likely to be stored as fat on your body and less likely burned for energy as compared to when insulin levels are low. That is, for each level of glucose and fats in the blood, more insulin has to be released to transport them into the muscle cells. So when you eat a meal high in fat the carbohydrates that are in the blood are likely to be shuttled into the fat cells and not into the muscle cells.

While the theory (which is just that...a theory!) is hard to prove....I think its makes sense to avoid refined sugars and fat whenever possible and not worry about the amount of carbs in the meal, as long as they are veggies. Veggies are known to have little interference with insulin levels and combine well with most if not all paleo foods.

Chris Forbis
04-05-2007, 06:18 PM
The olive oil debate stems from ambiguity over whether a fat block is 3g or 1.5g. There are Zone charts (in Sears' books) that calculate it both ways.

R. Alan Hester
04-05-2007, 06:35 PM
The olive oil debate stems from ambiguity over whether a fat block is 3g or 1.5g. There are Zone charts (in Sears' books) that calculate it both ways.

That makes it all clear. Thanks.

Alan

Craig Cooper
04-06-2007, 11:27 AM
Exactly, I'm glad we cleared that up. I find the 1.5b/block calculation inaccurate and confusing, so I just figure everything out by itself.

Cassidy Drake
04-06-2007, 12:00 PM
I wrote this on another forum when someone asked about the new "waxy Maize starch" for PWO insulin. Glut4 receptors make it unneeded in my opinion and the way I read Tipton's studies.




People are always worried about speed of this and that. if you are eating correctly ALL day, then it really isn't needed period. Not to mention aminos and most other key nutrients are absorbed in the small intestine, not the stomach. Even in glycogen replinishment it does have a limit when large amounts are ingested.


Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


You can't say WMS is superior by isolating its effects without taking into consideration real world variables such as glycogen levels before and during (which are not even close to be depleted) and the addition of a protein as well which will have more of an effect on recovery than ANY carbohydrate drink.

The next question you need which basically eliminates the need to split hairs about molecular size is to ask what effect does increased glycogen resynthesis rates have on protein synthesis rates? Basically none.

Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids. IF you are worried so much about preventing catabolism then increasing rates of protein synthesis should be your number one priority. Insulin is mainly anti-catabolic in small amounts. Amino acids exert anabolic activity.

Jonathan Reik
04-06-2007, 02:20 PM
Stole this off of some random Zone site:

"One mini-block of fat equals three grams. When you are eating a lowfat protein source, such as chicken or fish, there is some hidden fat there, about 1.5 grams per ounce. For this reason, you will often see a fat mini-block counted as 1.5 grams. Our mini block guide lists a fat block as 1.5 grams while our food block database lists a fat block as 3 grams."

So basically, when they count a block as 1.5g of fat, they're assuming that you're getting the rest of your fat (another 1.5g fat for each 7g protein block) from the protein source.

Ultimately, you're trying to end up with 9g Carb/7g Pro/3g Fat (91 kcal total) for a block.

Steve Liberati
04-06-2007, 02:43 PM
All this block and Zone stuff is starting to make me feel...well, like a block head.

Not blowing it off, just all the more reason Paleo makes so much more sense to me. Your body tells you when to stop eating, not some metal scale. No counting calories, blocks or worrying about ratios. Just eat as nature intended.

If your athlete or someone looking for optimal muscle gain...just have some meat or seafood with a banana or a sweet potatoe...and call it your post-workout nutrition. Maybe no one can call it their own or make money off this approach, but it works!