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Steve Shafley
04-05-2007, 09:06 AM
Disclaimer: Mild Assholishness. "Sheeple" Confusion.



I have to confess that I'm conflicted.

On one hand, I think Rippetoe and Kilgore had some good things to say in "Starting Strength" and "Practical Programming."

On the other hand...these lifts aren't that difficult. Neither is their programming.

The whole "certification" thing throws me too. Powerlifting is a sport, much like Olympic lifting is. You don't need to be "certified" to compete, or to even practice the lifts. I mean, come on, you need to be "certified" to show some average man or woman how to bench press? These aren't high skill lifts like the OLs.

I think there are much better options out there. Here they are:

1. Visit WSB in Columbus, OH. Call Louie. Ask to visit. Visit. See the machine in operation. Buy him, and maybe a few other guys lunch. Pick the brain of the most eclectic and creative thinkers in powerlifting. A man who lives and breathes powerlifting. Guess what...he won't care if you lift raw and the price is free.

2. Go to an EliteFTS seminar. Yeah, this costs money, but you are exposed to people who've lifting and coached at the highest levels, and who've given many, many seminars. And who give back to the sport of Powerlifting.

3. Find the local group of powerlifters to lift with. Cost: Gym membership at that gym, MAYBE. Make a new group of friends.

I understand there is money to be made. And I understand that guys like Rip and Kilgore probably could use the extra cash. They've put their time in, coaching and lifting, that's for sure.

This is just me, but I have a very hard time with the whole process of "selling out". I mean, man, I'd love to make some money, but I can't quite bring myself to do it the way the Matt Furey or Ryan Lee folks set it up. I do like the business model of Crossfit and the way they are working things and promoting stuff like OL, PL, and gymnastics, but I think the price of certifications are getting out of hand.

Just my $0.02...like I mentioned elsewhere, I'm glad to see Mike Burgener is making a bit of money after decades of hard work coaching Olympic lifters. I feel mostly the same about Rip and Kilgore.

Steve Shafley
04-05-2007, 09:13 AM
Sometimes I get worried that I'm walking the path of Holden Caulfield, but instead of getting unhinged about things that are "fake", I get unhinged when I see stuff like the Furey Inner Circle or Ryan Lee methods of marketing something like fitness and stuff.

Danny John
04-05-2007, 10:11 AM
Well, my coaches weren't certified to coach. Coach Ralph Maughan wrote the throwing section of the Rules Handbook and he never took the workshop on how to coach.

I agree with you about certs. I learned more going to an O lift meet than any clinic...same with track, too. Being "certified" to coach football for example would get you laughed out of the coach's office here at work.

I think the reason I have a hard time charging people is that the best coaching I have had, Dick Notmeyer, Ralph Maughan, Bob Lualhati among others, has been from people from the trenches sharing with me their passion.

So, I have no issue with making money on this stuff, but I feel that I still owe more than I should receive.

I'm still dumb enough to think that learning from the best of the best (Brian Oldfield, Juri Sedyk, John Powell, Andy Bloom, Mark Twight and many many others) is the way to learn a discipline.

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2007, 10:20 AM
instruction and learning seminar is one thing.....certification is just silly....too many organizations out there giving certs for "Swiss Ball".."Core".."Bicep curls" etc....it's a business at that point....hey want more money? Come up with another way to certify people so they can put it on some business card and look professional.......people are selling out all day long....Oprah's trainer makes more money than me saying that side leg lifts are the way to tone the glutes....just the way the world works....Money is the big factor of course. Not that it wouldn't be worth the money to have Rip do a 2 day seminar. From a business point of view....great idea...you have people willing to shell out $ for anything you offer....so expand your offerings and that same group will have something new to buy into. Business 101 and yes I would do the same. To get educated by the best like Rip. it's worth paying some money....but until the whole training industry comes under some sort of national certification program...people can do and will do what ever they want....

Reminds me of the whole bootcamp industry.....get 40 people running around doing bodyweight stuff for an hour for $20 a head....the person running it looks like a business genious making $800/hr....people get a value compared to personal training rates....but there is no way anyone is worth $800/hr to tell people to do pushups and run around....but would I complain if I had that business? Ummmm....No...

Derek Simonds
04-05-2007, 11:19 AM
IMHO Certifications do two things;

1) They show that you have basic understanding of the field you are certified in.
2) They (just like a college degree) show you have the capacity for learning.

I hire technical people all the time (tech support, graphic artist, web developers, programmers) and certifications might help get an interview but not the job. In fact the majority of my hiring decisions have been made based on prior practical application of the skill I am looking for at that moment. I have interviewed plenty of applicants who have certifications but couldn't perform the most basic requirements required for the job.

A very basic certification for Tech Support is the A+ cert. It is a total joke. The only reason it exists is for the company providing the certification to make money. They have done a good job marketing that an A+ technician has a solid knowledge base. Maybe, but a lot of people who show up with the cert couldn't diagnose a tech support problem if their life depended on it.

Interestingly enough if you apply the above to PT I think there is a large overlap. I don't know if a xFit PL cert has enough marketing behind it that it would carry any weight in a hiring or consideration decision.

A good trainer will have knowledge of many different exercises, protocols and programming options. They should also have a body of work (no pun intended) that can be used as a reference point.

I agree with what DJ was saying in that he learned more at an O lift meet or a Track and Field meet than in a certification or seminar. It is pretty simple, there is a huge gap between knowingness and doingness. Certification shows some level of knowingness but participation and results are doingness.

I have no problem with making a profit and I have no problem with supporting the people that are providing me with information. I agree with MOD if DJ or Robb, Greg, Mike Mahler, Alwyn Cosgrove (to name a few) were doing a seminar that fit into my schedule I would be there. For a couple of reasons, one I am confident that I would learn a ton from any of them, and two they all have shared information "from the trenches with passion" freely.

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2007, 11:58 AM
Certs are supposed to have a standardized test at the end to make sure you know the information that was presented....otherwise it's just a seminar in disguise. Certs are presented for the most part to make the certifying business make money....seminars are personal investments by people to learn more...for the most part, only a few certs carry any weight in the training industry...the rest are just resume builders for those who want to impress the general public who don't know better.

Life and personal experience of yours or someone else is far better than what any standard course can teach you...

Steve Liberati
04-05-2007, 12:54 PM
While I agree in large part with the above...let's not dismiss the fact that most people make decisions NOT based on the facts, but rather the story they tell themselves (i.e this guy is the best in the business, I read his books and would love to see him live, etc). They've come to trust and believe in CrossFit and as a result, guys in the extended network like Rip and Mike B have full permission to market their services to the community at rates well above market value.

Sure you can get a better deal elsewhere but these guys win b/c they have a captivated audience waiting and wanting more. Damn right you can find a better less expensive cup of coffee than Starbucks but you'll be hard pressed to find a coffee shop with such a long line going out the door. Demand follows popularity.

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2007, 12:59 PM
Damn right you can find a better less expensive cup of coffee than Starbucks but you'll be hard pressed to find a coffee shop with such a long line going out the door.

I go to Cariboo Coffee now....got sick of Starbuck's attitude. lol :D

Steve Shafley
04-05-2007, 01:13 PM
I make my own.

I am only one step away from actually starting to roast the beans myself.

A metaphor, right there.

Steve Shafley
04-05-2007, 01:14 PM
And, shit, I understand the money behind the equation.

Like I said...it's something that bugs me.

Derek Simonds
04-05-2007, 01:23 PM
I don't drink coffee so I am safe from the lines. We have a little story we tell our clients about Starbucks, customers will pay you stupid amounts of money for simple things if you just get out of their way. I can't help but think of sheep in a pen when I see the line at Starbucks.

Steve, I have no problem at all with Rip and Coach B being able to maximize their earnings potential through their relationship with xFit. In fact I applaud their savvy (BTW savvy in this case is not a negative) promotional skills. If the xFit community is willing to shell out the bucks for a certification I say go for it.

In my particular case certification or seminar makes no difference to me and if the seminars or certifications were convenient I would certainly attend.

Greg Everett
04-05-2007, 01:23 PM
I think certification vs. seminar is just a semantics argument. I think the CF certs or seminars, whatever you want to see them as, are probably the best out there for what they are--I do think theyre a little pricey, though.

Yes, all well and good to go rub elbows with cool coaches for free, but if that's all that was ever going on, said coaches wouldn't be available for elbow rubbing--they'd be bussing tables or taking away your garbage. It's a job like any other, and we all get paid for our jobs. So I don't see anything particularly distasteful for charging money to learn shit--whether or not you think said shit is worth the price of admission is up to you. Personally I feel no need to attend a PL clinic, but there are plenty of folks who are not as familiar as me, steve, DJ, et al with the DL, bench, etc. and could actually get something out of it. Not my money they're spending.

Steve Shafley
04-05-2007, 01:33 PM
No man, it's all good.

Hey, Greg, did you go and workout during the Saturday cert at Burgeners?

Robb Wolf
04-05-2007, 01:53 PM
Interesting stuff.

I think Derek brought up some good points...people in the field quickly evaluate whether a given certification is worthwhile or not. We get a load of resumes for trainers but we have only taken one guy from outside and that was only after he interned with us for 6 months. We have received many inquires from folks with CF certs and we have the dual problem of space limitations and a quality issue. Anyone working at out facility needs to have a pretty damn good grasp of rehab and contraindications for various populations. At present there are no certifications that provide that background, we have to build the trainer.

What Dan said got me thinking about Thai boxing. One can be an excellent coach/trainer with no "certification" but there are a few certifying bodies that make good trainers but it is a long, tough process and there is an ass kicker of a competency exam to ge tthe cert. One could likely develop a certification for "Foot Ball Coach"...take a program that has a winning formula, systematize it and pass it along...but I think it will take more than a weekend course to get much from it...one needs to intern and be immersed int he stuff.

Rip absolutely knows his stuff. For the newbie or someone with a hard-on for CF I think it could transform their game spending time with that guy Coach B or RUTMAN. All those guys have forgotten more S&C than I will ever know.

Steve Shafley
04-05-2007, 01:59 PM
I think Bill Starr would like some of his intellectual assets back.

Oh yeah, I forgot...Bill Starr is the kind of teacher who expects you to take what you've learned, add to it, maybe put your own spin to it, and teach someone else.

You do a lot of rehab and special populations work, eh, Robb? That's got to be gratifying in a whole different way than just working with the cream of the crop.

Steve Liberati
04-05-2007, 02:00 PM
Yeah its really a matter of perspective. Do you blame the drug dealer on the corner for selling the drugs? or do you blame the drug user for buying the drugs?

Without crackheads there would be no crackdealers. But not sure if the reverse is true. While a PL cert may not be my cup of tea (or coffee in this case:)), I'm sure many are willing to pay like Greg said.

As the saying goes...when you try to please everybody, you satisfy nobody.

PS Steve, here's great article thought you might enjoy. You certainly make a valid point:
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2006/03/tom_chappell_se.html

Steve Shafley
04-05-2007, 02:10 PM
Thanks Steve, that was a decent read.

Steve Liberati
04-05-2007, 02:16 PM
yeah I know what you mean...the few times in my life I stopped at Fivebucks for a cup of Joe...some artsy-fartsy-vegetarian-grudge type eyed me up and down looking me as if I was going to jump over the counter and starting eating em. But its we're the wierdos!:)

I go to Cariboo Coffee now....got sick of Starbuck's attitude. lol :D

Derek Simonds
04-05-2007, 02:18 PM
That was a good read. You could get lost in the trackbacks to that article for days.

Authenticity or Ubiquity that is the question!

Pierre Auge
04-05-2007, 02:38 PM
In all honesty if I could convince people to spend $385 to spend two days listening to what I had to say even if I had to split it, I would be less then ashamed! The bills are what matter and the opinions of those who feel differently mean little...

Sam Lepore
04-05-2007, 02:55 PM
As soon as Crossfit posted the Powerlifting Cert, I knew it was just a matter of time before this board criticized it.

Eva Claire Synkowski
04-05-2007, 03:09 PM
as an fyi - xf has actually changed their requirements a bit in terms of the levels - attending 3 certs no longer means you are a level III trainer.

in terms of paying for the certs. as passionate and welcoming as coach b is, there is no way i would have ever just called him up randomly, pulled up to mikes gym, and hoped hed walk me through oly lifting - because without paying, id feel like a schmuck. so i went to the xf oly cert..... i think the rip cert/seminar is great for those who want to know more about pl.

Pierre Auge
04-05-2007, 03:15 PM
Eva Claire,
you and me we are so on the same page!

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2007, 04:44 PM
As soon as Crossfit posted the Powerlifting Cert, I knew it was just a matter of time before this board criticized it.

Criticized or discussed? Funny....how you assumed it would be the first...when many said it is worth the money to talk to those guys.....

As for the money thing...I joke saying that people who cry "I don't do it for the money..." usually have never made any.....I'll be first to admit, I'd do a 2 day seminar and charge a couple hundred bucks if I could get 30 people to come to ODfit HQ.....

Sam Lepore
04-05-2007, 04:58 PM
Criticized and discussed. Criticized by many that used to Frequent Xfit's site with multiple posts per day.

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2007, 05:07 PM
Criticized and discussed. Criticized by many that used to Frequent Xfit's site with multiple posts per day.

and who left for a reason.....I would pay money for a seminar with Rip on general lifting...but people running around saying they have a certification in PL is a little silly...most people earn their respect in PL after decades of experience and competitions...not one weekend...I could teach someone hockey in 2 days....doesn't mean he's ready to go coach a team...

So you see....I do agree it's worth it for people who need that education for improving their own lifting...as those people are really top notch...but I would not pay for certification purposes if I already know how to do the lifts and am not trying to be a professional PL...It's a wise business move on CF's part....I'd do the same if I was running a business...doesn't mean people have to like it....

Steve Liberati
04-05-2007, 05:08 PM
Been on message boards long enough to know people come and go, get bored, bounce around, take time off, backstab, help each other out, criticize, critique, discuss, and then eventually find their way right back to where they started. Its all one big circle mixed with many different personalities and opinions. Some stronger than others...

Sam Lepore
04-05-2007, 05:11 PM
Been on message boards long enough to know people come and go, get bored, bounce around, take time off, backstab, help each other out, criticize, critique, discuss, and then eventually find their way right back to where they started. Its all one big circle...one smaller than we think.

Agreed Steve!

Robb Wolf
04-05-2007, 05:23 PM
Criticized and discussed. Criticized by many that used to Frequent Xfit's site with multiple posts per day.

Sam-
It's good feed-back and I imagine some of the comparissons and back & forth can get tiresome but it was attempts at criticism ON that board by many here (and behind the scenes, oh yes, behind the scenes) that resulted in both public and private "executions" of many of the folks contributing to this thread, myself included. Right or wrong I think that treatment has created a climate of "scrutiny" that I honestly think is healthy so long as it does not become a process of implosion and eating our own young.

I think Steve raised an interesting point and for the most part folks tipped thier hats to the certification/seminars. Most importantly it was not a personal attack but it was a critical question of which everyone could contribute without fear of recrimination or censure. I think that is important and telling.

I contributed HUGELY to that community and left in an attempt to make a point for change. For my thanks it was propogated that I left to start "CrossFit Axis" with Gym Jones! I may not always keep a firm grasp on my emotions with this stuff, as is the casse with others, but I do my best to keep the information and discussion flowing. Occasionally that my delve into conflict, hopefully not too much however.

Dave Van Skike
04-05-2007, 05:43 PM
As one of the myriad professional types who couldn't afford to pay my own hourly rate, I bear no grudge against folks charging big bucks for personal appearances to run through their knowledges....... That is a seminar. The cost is exactly what the market will bear. No harm no foul.

On the other hand, anything that professes to make you coaching worthy or certify your knowledge in two days is BS. Most lawyers agree that law school doesn't really teach you to be a lawyer. In this vein, what makes anyone think that a two day seminar puts you in a position to teach anything? It's just preposterous.

I feel strongly enough on this point that I have turned down going to "Cert" that was going to be paid for by someone else. It would have just been embarrassing. Have some f'ing dignity.

Xfit , Pavel, Federenko et al have done a lot help the fitness culture in this country. Coaching franchises are the downside.

Jason C. Brown
04-05-2007, 05:58 PM
Hey Shaf,

Honest question, what do you do for a living ? Or who do you work for ? I'll understand if you don't want to make that info public.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a d*ck but I hate when people that are not earning a their living within a training business criticize others that are and their business practices.

It's nice to sit back and criticize when you're getting a steady paycheck every two weeks or whatever.

Training full time can be a roller coaster ride financially, I'm sure you understand that.

I do agree with your concerns about a need for such a cert though.

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2007, 06:02 PM
I personally look forward to the day everyone calls me a sellout....then I know I did something right and will be making the big bucks finally! lol......some truth to that. :D

Jason C. Brown
04-05-2007, 06:03 PM
Something else of interest:

Read page 6-7 of Practical Prgramming.

Jason C. Brown
04-05-2007, 06:05 PM
Mike,

I'm with you.

Yael Grauer
04-05-2007, 06:20 PM
You sell-outs!

Oh wait...

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2007, 06:26 PM
Great discussion...just to go on the whole price issue...here's what I see....

Certs out there:
Kettlebell - $2000 (guessing?)
CF - $1000
NSCS/ACE/ISSA CPT - $400
other CPT certs - $200-$300

But it comes down to is the money worth the investment? Will you see return on it? If the answer is Yes....then it's money well spent.....if the answer is No then it is not a good business move. Of course many people do it for the information factor alone and not for professional use...which is fine. I think $400 is alot for a cert....as really not many places out there are really picky on certs...plus if you are really in business for yourself then you can make your resume however you want it to be. But maybe the cost needs to be high.....to keep only serious people in the industry.

Also I've been to all day seminars with Mike Boyle, AC, Chek and the likes...and those usually cost about $100+ for a day. So I think seminars should be around that range....not $300+....but of course you could argue some seminars may limit # of persons and therefore charge more. Much like training....if you train with 3 people it's one price....if you train with 20 it's probably alot cheaper....

Price validation will all depend on how the business is affected around it....

Jason C. Brown
04-05-2007, 06:53 PM
Value is also determined by the consumer. I don't understand the need for expensive cars but they exist simply because people will buy them.

Steve Liberati
04-05-2007, 06:53 PM
Mike your obviously a very rational guy. The market is not. Most economists and marketers alike, agree there is no relation between price and quality.
Seth Godin put it best, "check out the parking lot at Costco. Lots of $40,000 or more cars and SUVs in the lot, people who wasted a few shekels worth of gas to drive out of their way to invest an hour of time to save a dollar on a big jar of pickles. These are the same people who will spend an extra $100 on an airplane ticket to save a few minutes in getting home after a meeting."

Its all about the marketing man! That, and a classic case of supply and demand.

And here I'm still trying to get over the time when mom's were assaulting one another over a Elmo doll shelling out hundreds of dollars for a single doll.

Gary John
04-05-2007, 06:55 PM
To be a volunteer in California, like say a coach, you need a CPR/first aid
certificate. Bullcrap.

To operate a forklift you need to pay to be certified. Bullcrap.

X-fit is charging for a
POWERLIFTING CERTIFICATE

Guess what I think?

Been to a Oly seminar, free
Eight hours with Andy Bloom learning shot and discus technique, $30.

Just pick up something heavy and lift it. Spend a weekend at any PL
gym with a couple of cases of beer. You will learn more.

Dave Van Skike
04-05-2007, 07:02 PM
Fitness pros et al. No disrepeck intended. I fully endorse folks getting paid for what they do. The real question is certification to train as opposed to spreading knowledge gaining experience.

Broadly, certifications, degrees and various other aggrandizements behind your name in form of letters are mean to show that you have been weeded out, winnowed from the chaff and thoroughly tested. It doesn't mean you're any damn good but at least you stuck it out. In short, degrees and certs are meant to weed out the casual from the serious.

The whole idea of selling this throwaway alphabet soup (RKC, Crossflirt level 9, Circualr Strenght Budokan....certs) as some sort of ready made bone fide is flat out silly.

Mike ODonnell
04-05-2007, 07:12 PM
Its all about the marketing man! That, and a classic case of supply and demand.

Hence why I just bought a Curves franchise.....so I can still "afford" to be a trainer with principles...

We are giving Walshy some good material....should keep him going for another week....

Greg Everett
04-05-2007, 08:20 PM
OK. Let's all take a few deep breaths and move on. As I've said before, this board is not an anti-CF or anti-anything else board. I'd like to see criticisms more constructive--I know I sound like a new-ager, but I don't want this board to develop a reputation for being a haven for bitter, disenfranchised CFers--and the fact that Sam essentially suggested that's what it is makes me very unhappy.

I think it's easy to forget when you're extremely proficient with any given skill or discipline that there was a time you were not--these certs are not for those who have the experience and education--they're for those who need it, and as such, they're all good in my opinion. If you don't want to go, don't go. No one's stealing any money from you. And if you don't value the certification, don't value it--no one's making you hire any of these trainers.

If instead of spending years poring through books, magazine and videos, doing everything wrong, tugging on the pant legs of the wise, etc. I could learn a whole bunch of shit all in one place, I'd pay the money. Now are these certs perfect? Of course not. Nothing presented to a heterogeneous group of people can be perfect. But I'd say it's about as good as it gets. If you want to compare costs, you can look at NSCA CSCS for example... that's a few hundred dollars just to take an exam--there's no clinical practice or learning involved. You have to shell out for a text or study materials (most likely) in addition. So to compare something like that to a CF clinic is just not fair. Spend 2 days with Mike Burgener, even in a large group, versus reading a lame textbook and then taking a lame test? I think the relative values are quite clear.

Regardless of how anyone feels about the certs, the CF-bashing needs to cool out. This forum needs to be a resource for useful information, not a place to get away with shit-talking.

Andew Cattermole
04-05-2007, 08:36 PM
OK. Let's all take a few deep breaths and move on. As I've said before, this board is not an anti-CF or anti-anything else board. I'd like to see criticisms more constructive--I know I sound like a new-ager, but I don't want this board to develop a reputation for being a haven for bitter, disenfranchised CFers--and the fact that Sam essentially suggested that's what it is makes me very unhappy.

I think it's easy to forget when you're extremely proficient with any given skill or discipline that there was a time you were not--these certs are not for those who have the experience and education--they're for those who need it, and as such, they're all good in my opinion. If you don't want to go, don't go. No one's stealing any money from you. And if you don't value the certification, don't value it--no one's making you hire any of these trainers.

If instead of spending years poring through books, magazine and videos, doing everything wrong, tugging on the pant legs of the wise, etc. I could learn a whole bunch of shit all in one place, I'd pay the money. the relative values are quite clear.

Regardless of how anyone feels about the certs, the CF-bashing needs to cool out. This forum needs to be a resource for useful information, not a place to get away with shit-talking.

This is a great Post Greg, but its come way too late. This forum is already marked very clearly.

Education is education, business is business people make money through educating others particularly those that wish to get an entry level experience in a learning environment of aspects that they may not be able to experience/access in day to day life.
Personally the typical O Lift or PL Crowd doesn’t really endear itself to many others in such a broad society (take that as you will). Certainly such communities aren’t as open access as some has suggested.

Those that already have that experience or achieved in a different manner (perhaps cheaper) or have been in the Sport forever (perhaps dominated by their own dogma) shouldn't just get pissed off that someone is promoting cert or seminar and making a buck along with it.
Not even going to touch the suggestions of higher morality/ethics etc, jeez aren’t some you touched by a higher divinity!!

Sorry to offend.But I hope some points make sense.

Yael Grauer
04-05-2007, 08:39 PM
I think it also depends on what your learning style is. I'm not a visual learner at all and I learn best one-on-one. That's why I'd rather pay $75 for a one-hour private session than pay $75 for a month's worth of group classes. But I think other people thrive in the group atmosphere--being able to see a ton of examples, and learn that way.

Brian Sullivan
04-05-2007, 09:17 PM
Cert/Seminar--whatever. Don't get hung up on the name. Crossfit sells certs. The people attending this will probably not be coaching power lifters anyway. Okay - this is not cheap, but crossfit's market isn't poor. Good for CrossFit. Nobody needs to go, and if you want to get into powerlifting, you wouldn't start at CrossFit Anyway, a weekend listening to Mark Rippetoe and Lon Kilgore is probably worth a few hundred, plus I expect that this will include coaching. For some less athletic, older guys like myself, good coachs are not easy to find. They would rather coach promising kids. Really. I would go if I had time and money to spare. Better still, I'd contact Mark and ask if I could get private coaching at his gym.

Catherine Imes
04-06-2007, 04:36 AM
As soon as I have the time and energy to dedicate to learning Olympic Lifting, I will attend the "cert" to learn. I know that a 2 day cert will not a teacher make. I just now consider myself a "competent" kettlebell instructor and comfortable with charging a price for my own workshops/seminars. This is after 4 years of dedicated practice-teaching friends and continual learning. My standards are pretty high.

I think I found the $395 for Burgener's Olympic lifting workshop to be extremely reasonable given all the great things I've heard. Seems to me the Powerlifting workshop would be the same given the presenters (I'm going by the information in their books). I agree that if you can learn a few tips that will save you time and months or years of headaches, it is well worth the price...

Of course, I've never attended a Dragondoor workshop for less than $1000. So, I'm used to paying for things.

I do agree that the word "Certification" is misleading, but I've seen plenty of people get "Certified" to teach KB instruction who did not have a good grasp on the movements themselves...So, I think most of us take the term with a grain of salt.


CI

Steve Shafley
04-06-2007, 07:23 AM
Jason:

I don't do anything for a living, Jason. An opportunity came along for me to stay home with my infant daughter a few years back, and my wife and I talked about it extensively, and I took it. This was a financial step backwards for us.

A very difficult transition to me, but the benefit was priceless.

So, when she goes to preschool and kindergarten, I'm looking at entering the fray again. I'd really rather do what you, and other trainers do, than to find a job in my old field, because fitness and S&C are where my interests lie.

Jason, in addition, I think we've kind of got off on the wrong foot, with me being a tad bit of an asshole to you at times, and I apologize for that.

So, pay the bills any way you can...right. The market supports its, obviously.

On the rest:

Apparently it's a very hot topic to some.

This is simply me talking about some conflicting feelings regarding "certifications". I have heard that the quality of instruction at XF seminars is generally very high.

Of course, I could never go to one, being a persona non grata, but, hell, if you want to go, and have the spare change, go ahead. You're the one putting the value to the information.

Looking back at my initial post, I wish I would have written "Here are some additional options" rather than "better options", because that's really what I was thinking.

And, if you read my initial post, I state:

I'm glad to see Mike Burgener is making a bit of money after decades of hard work coaching Olympic lifters. I feel mostly the same about Rip and Kilgore.

A lot of times, what I say here seems to be filtered through a 'that guy's an asshole who hates crossfit' filter, and, really, that's not true. I'm misunderstood, I tell ya.

Eve and Pierre:

I can totally see your point.

Greg and Robb:

Sorry, fellas, I'm like an albatross. I don't mean to bring down your forum, because I enjoy the discussion here. If you need me to just back off on incendiary posting, let me know.

I also agree with the hands on learning thing...I learn better that way too.

Really, though, when it comes down to the bottom line, Dan John's written sentiments echo mine. The one thing that comes to mind is that superb athletes often find their way to superb coaches. The 41 year old middle manager who's just learning often finds these out of reach. In these cases, the certs/seminars/etc that are being held around the country are a godsend.

Allen Yeh
04-06-2007, 08:04 AM
A lot of times, what I say here seems to be filtered through a 'that guy's an asshole who hates crossfit' filter, and, really, that's not true. I'm misunderstood, I tell ya.


To be honest IMO even when I was more of a kool-aid drinker I never really thought that. It was good to see the perspective from another point of view which is what you, Walsh, Fox...etc brought to that board. A lot of the times the discussions just got out of hand *shrugs*

Robert Allison
04-06-2007, 08:31 AM
OK. Let's all take a few deep breaths and move on. As I've said before, this board is not an anti-CF or anti-anything else board. I'd like to see criticisms more constructive--I know I sound like a new-ager, but I don't want this board to develop a reputation for being a haven for bitter, disenfranchised CFers--and the fact that Sam essentially suggested that's what it is makes me very unhappy.

Not to fan the flames unnecessarily, but there seems to some sensitivity within the CrossFit community to any discussion of them that is even perceived to be less than positive. There are threads on this site that discuss Poliquin, Mike Boyle, etc—and not all of the posts are positive. Yet no one from their organizations show up here to suggest that the PM of has some kind of agenda against them.

Because of your and Robb’s past affiliation with CrossFit, it make sense to handle these topics as graciously as possible. But I also think that self-censorship is not the answer.

While I agree that bashing CrossFit (or anyone else for that matter) simply to express bitterness is probably unhealthy, I didn’t really see that going on here. Sure, there were probably one or two posts that might have been unnecessarily negative, but they were the exception rather than the rule. And I say that as someone who really has no dogs in this fight and is relatively objective.

Robb said,

I think Steve raised an interesting point and for the most part folks tipped thier hats to the certification/seminars. Most importantly it was not a personal attack but it was a critical question of which everyone could contribute without fear of recrimination or censure. I think that is important and telling.

I think that is a fairly accurate description of the general tone of this thread. Most of the posts that questioned the value of certifications focused on their value in general and not so much the CrossFit PL certification specifically. And many of the posts (from guys who post here regularly) were very positive about the value of this particular certification.

The law of the market is always caveat emptor. If you think a cert or book or DVD is valuable, then to you it obviously it is. But I think that having a venue for people to share their thoughts & opinions on various products and ideas is important. Part of that is allowing people to share their perceptions and experiences, both good and bad. In the end, we all benefit, even the organization or individual being questioned. I realize and appreciate that is normally the MO of the forum here and that is what I like about it. I personally wouldn't want anything or anyone to be off limits because of past personality conflicts.

Having said all of that, this is obviously Robb & Greg’s place. I do recognize that certain topics can become somewhat heated and easily get out of hand. If there is a more constructive and preferred way of addressing certain topics, please make that know. Please hear this in the spirit it is intended and not as some kind of snide comment.

Greg Everett
04-06-2007, 09:00 AM
Not to fan the flames unnecessarily, but there seems to some sensitivity within the CrossFit community to any discussion of them that is even perceived to be less than positive. There are threads on this site that discuss Poliquin, Mike Boyle, etc—and not all of the posts are positive. Yet no one from their organizations show up here to suggest that the PM of has some kind of agenda against them.

Because of your and Robb’s past affiliation with CrossFit, it make sense to handle these topics as graciously as possible. But I also think that self-censorship is not the answer.

Yes, things have been said about Boyle et al, but nowhere near as much as with CF, hence my singling it out. If I started seeing loads of fuck Mike Boyle posts, I would say the same thing. With CF it's becoming a theme and seems to me to be increasingly negative. As I've said before, I have no issue with discussions of Cf's merit from a technical perspective, but there have been too many posts that stray from that. There are at least 2 people (no, not including greg glassman) who believe this forum to simply be a place for anti-CF sentiment--that's two too many in my opinion.

Jason C. Brown
04-06-2007, 09:35 AM
I wasn't sticking up for CF per se, only a porfessionsal right to earn a living. I know great coaches from big U's in PA that earn sh*t and out in long,long hours.

Has anyone read page 6-7 of PP ? It seems like a big change in thought.

Mike ODonnell
04-06-2007, 10:26 AM
CF gets alot of attention because of how influencial they are in the fitness industry....should be a compliment to get more criticism.....but I am sure many of the same comments in this thread would apply to any organization doing a cert for PL....I wouldn't want to be the guy who walks into Westside BB and asks for a job saying he is certified to teach PL....Yikes....

That being said...it's a great learning experience for those who do attend...but I think the "cert" word is diluted in general with every type of business giving them out like Mentos.....Nesta, Issa, Affa...all the likes...lots and lots of certs...but they really hold no water in the real world....might be good education though and worth it to learn a specialty....but I think the industry needs less certs and a more unifying body to govern the whole process....I am sure that will never happen. Experience and years of hard work and sweat will be the best teaching you will ever get...even if that includes doing things the wrong way just so you know what the right way is eventually.

If someone(no one in particular) reads the above as anti-CF....then I am sorry and that person needs to check their own attitude as they are trying to see it in places it is not...because that is a technical assessment on the whole industry...

Dave Van Skike
04-06-2007, 10:59 AM
Well said.

Steve Shafley
04-06-2007, 11:30 AM
Wow, Jason.

I just looked that up. I have a PDF of the first chapter. I think it's available somewhere online, probably on the Aasgaard or the Starting Strength site.

Very contradictory.

Practical Programming, p6-7, by Rippetoe and Kilgore. Taken from the free Chapter 1 PDF available online.

There are more than 300 different certifications
available to exercise professionals, with nearly as many
businesses and organizations offering them. California alone
has nearly 40 entities offering some type of credential. This is
an unregulated industry, and as such there are “professional
certifications” that can be obtained by writing a check to a
company, receiving some course material in an envelope in the
mail, taking a test at home or online, and then receiving your
certification in the mail in a second envelope. Suddenly you
become a certified weight training professional and can put
some extra letters after your name. Others offer an evening or
Saturday workshop that upon completion renders you a
“certified professional.” These certifications benefit no one
except the business offering the certification. They certainly
cannot develop—or even measure—the skills and knowledge
required of a competent strength professional. An untrained
person, with no previous education or mentored experiences,
cannot gain the necessary knowledge and skills to become a
successful practitioner by quickly reading a study guide before a
test or by spending an afternoon with a certification instructor.
An “education” is required, formal or otherwise, as is time in
the trenches working with trained, knowledgeable
professionals. Only after gaining a satisfactory working
theoretical knowledge and a set of practical skills should
someone sit for a rigorous certification examination offered by
a professional organization with a professional membership.
Although credentials from organizations that have no
membership other than an advisory board, or businesses that
sell certifications, may serve a public relations function in
certain contexts, they should be considered only after a major
certification has been obtained (NSCA [National Strength and
Conditioning Association] and USAW [USA Weightlifting] in
particular for strength training, ACSM for exercise in general).
Even these certifications have their limitations, but they are the
best currently available. A good rule of thumb is that if the
certifying agency does not have an annual convention of its
professional membership, does not have a professional
education agenda, and does not produce a professional journal,
it is likely that the merit and value of its certification is low. A
seminar, symposium, or workshop is not a certification. These
short-duration educational experiences are quite valuable for
professional development, but their attendance and completion
should not be considered evidence of expertise

Mike ODonnell
04-06-2007, 11:45 AM
"A seminar, symposium, or workshop is not a certification. These
short-duration educational experiences are quite valuable for
professional development, but their attendance and completion
should not be considered evidence of expertise"

Nice find Jason. Pretty much I think what was said by so many people on here...and that sums it up pretty well.

Ron Nelson
04-06-2007, 12:44 PM
OK, so I'm confused.

Greg is really Deepak Chopra?

I'm having a Ronfit cert next week. BYOB and squat bar.

I'll provide the buckets.

Derek Simonds
04-06-2007, 01:50 PM
Dont think so in fact I really think that Depaak needs to pay attention to the mass gain template.

Ron I am in on your squat-o-beer bucket bonanza except I live next to the wrong Disney.

Danny John
04-06-2007, 05:25 PM
Steve came out to Utah for maybe three days and stayed with me. I think we learned a lot. I don't know what the cost was, but I am sure it was worth it. That is how most of us do stuff...we learn together.

Steve stayed in my bunk buds and ate meals and lifted and hung out and laughed with some fairly big names in the industry. I can't think of a cert worth that...

Bottom line: I still think one lifting meet is worth all the paper you get from this stuff.

Gary John
04-06-2007, 05:45 PM
I guess I'm stepping on a lot of toes here. I own a business, so like that long
quote up there, there is a certificate industry. And they lobby to get everybody
to have one of their certificates to prove you paid a fee to get one of their certificates, to prove you paid a fee to get one of their..........

Been to an Oly seminar at Crossfit HG, way back in May 2005. The instructor
and his assistant were taken to lunch. Seems about right.

Troy Archie
04-07-2007, 07:55 AM
The other day I watched some guy spend 20 minutes doing wrist curls. I watched him chuckling to myself and remembered a time when I was in the same boat as he, all the time I wasted doing shit like that and how because he'll never see any results by doing wrist curls that he's pretty much doomed to quit working out, go home and watch TV. For many people this is a common thing, in fact I bet I could go as far as saying 95% of ther general population fall into this routine and trap.

Let me think now, go back say 7 years ago when I bought my first plastic coated dumbbells and have the oppurtunity to go to a Crossfit, weightlifting, powerlifting, olympic lifting or whatever seminar OR spent those first 3 years doing wrist curls and tricept kick-backs?

Hmm, tough choice. That said, if it was now I think I'd rather spend the money on a really nice home gym. $1000 US could go a long way towards a bar, plates, rack and other cool toys...

Mark Rippetoe
04-10-2007, 08:29 PM
Gentlemen:

I don't believe that CrossFit intends their "certifications" to represent more than evidence of exposure to expertise. In that sense, the term is not being used in the same way that other organizations do, like the NSCA, which administers an extensive testing protocol. Rather it is more similar to the USA Weightlifting Sports Performance Coach Certification, or their Club Coach Certification. Dr. Kilgore and I have taught both of those several times; Lon is "certified" to teach up through their Regional Coach course, and has been working for them in this capacity for a decade. I assure you that the CF cert we will present will be quite a bit better than either one of them, for about the same money. We hope we can approach the excellent standards of USA Track and Field's Level One Certification, which I am sure many of you have attended. It is an excellent exposure to lots of information presented by quite competent coaches in an intensive, long weekend seminar format.

In PPST we indicate our opinion that bullshit certifications like those obtained by the pinsetters at Gold's are not terribly credible. I will make this promise to you all: anyone attending this CF version of what is actually our Starting Strength Seminar that feels as though the money was poorly spent will be personally reimbursed by me - not CrossFit, but Mark Rippetoe.

Dan is right: the best way to learn is by doing, and by accumulating experience over years of associating with the best. But not everybody has access to this level of expertise or the opportunity to participate in competitive situations where it might be found. I firmly believe that the information we provide is the among the best obtainable anywhere, from anybody. I was fortunate in the same way Dan was in that I had the opportunity to train and learn from the best guys in this field, and you're right, they didn't charge me. But they also didn't stop what they were doing and talk to me for 15 hours, stick my little inexperienced ass in the correct positions until I got them right, and then ask me lots of questions to make sure that I was paying attention.

Attendance at this cert is not evidence of expertise. Neither is having MD, PT, or Attorney at Law by your name. No actual adult believes that it is. It just means that the attendee has been exposed to information and expertise. Professional certification requires formal testing, and I can tell you that we are rapidly moving in that direction. Experience, the commodity that Dan is referring to, is only obtained the hard way. Whether the thing is a "seminar" or a "certification" is semantics. There are lots of places to go pay people money and listen to silly bullshit for a weekend and walk away with another piece of paper for the wall. This will not be one of them.

Rip

Ron Nelson
04-10-2007, 09:23 PM
Well put.
Just what the thread needed; one of the principals stepping in and laying it down.

Dave Van Skike
04-10-2007, 10:11 PM
Sold.

Thanks for adding to the discussion and thanks for both the books. Best content I've seen on the subject and well written; in a field where that is rare.

Respect.

Allen Yeh
04-11-2007, 01:48 AM
Thanks!

Pierre Auge
04-11-2007, 02:27 AM
Rip you back?

Never comes out quite like that when I say this shit, maybe I'm just not as old, I mean old enough, I mean experienced ;)

My question is this (for everyone but Rip) how many of you have been to WFAC or WSB and asked Rip or Louis if the would take the time to teach you what they know?

Anyone?

Ok Steve went to DJ's, but consider this. Its acually cheaper for some to meet DJ, Robb Wolf, MT, Rip, Burgener etc, etc, at a (or a few) $1000 seminar then it is for some to travel all over creation to meet these guys.

Unfortunately somehow I never got the opportunity to speak to DJ in person.

I have had the opportunity to travel all over said creation in order to meet all of those people (save DJ) and many more great coaches to train with them on their own terms.... Anyone want to wager how much that cost? Anybody? If you come even close to the number you would be shocked...

Most people especially competent trainers don't have time to spend travelling all over the place to meet with different coaches and learn from them. I on the other hand had nothing but time so I killed it doing the most productive thing I could think of. Having experts come together in a consolidated location makes sense to most busy professionals, it ends up being cheaper for them, and if they only have time to cram in what they are learning during the seminar then it probably means its because they have more opportunity to apply it in practice then you do! Which probably means they are better trainers then you are...

Too many of you apply your own oppinions to the rest of the
population assuming they are like you. But nobody is like you, particularly if you are on this forum. The large percentage of the people here are not part of the 95% of the population who read muscle and fitness thinking they are getting top class fitness information.

Here is one of my major beefs - if you don't have a professional reason for going to a "certification/seminar" wtf are you doing spending your money doing it? I assume its because you want to make the subject matter a professional goal. Now if that is the case and you are walking out of this cert thinking wtf was that then you're a tool who needs to learn how to pay attention.

I'll pull one of Alwyn Cosgrove's arguments out here: The closed loop - you spend $20 to educate yourself this turns over $200 - $200 turns over $2000 - $2000 turns over $20000... Granted he's trying to sell you educational material as he says this but its a damn good point none the less!

If you ever ask yourself if a learning experience is worth the money then you need to re-evaluate what you are doing with your life until you find something that you couldn't fathom not spending money on in order to learn more about, otherwise you are like the rest of the sheep who simply wake up in order that the day get over with!

Wake up thinking, "f3ck I wonder what I'm going to learn on the PMenu, CrossFit.com, T-Nation, email, blogs and from all my other sources today?"

Whenever I get an email from someone like Rip - I think fuck lets try this shit out, oft at the expense of what I'm doing - why because the lesson from the experience is worth more then ignorance of its existance, particularly if the experience was a bad one.

If you whine and bitch about your past experiences its because you are a dumbass who doesn't know how to use them to your advantage! The worst experiences tend to be most valuable, and none of the CrossFit certs are ever a terrible experience at least from my own, and I've been to a bunch and will continue to attend them and help out. Others have their reasons for not doing so that I respect. But don't bitch because someone is offering a service that you are neither capable nor qualified of offering and tha you are unlikely to participate in whether you had any real interest in it in the first place!!!

Rip if I had any money I'd spend it learning from you - Robb, Greg E., Shaf, same thing - why because I respect your knowledge and experience. If you can't turn that into a commodity then you have no commodity to offer and you're going to have a hard time putting the grass fed beef on the table. Then whether you are the best coach in the world or not - if you're broke you are very, very bad at what you do... This is coming from someone who is broke!!!

Steve Shafley
04-11-2007, 05:03 AM
Good stuff.

Nice to hear your insights and clarifications, Mark.

Pierre, as always, you have interesting things to say, and make some good points about the overall costs of travel, and the costs and legit expenses of doing business, not only in the "fitness" market, but in others.

Here is one of my major beefs - if you don't have a professional reason for going to a "certification/seminar" wtf are you doing spending your money doing it?

The "iron bug" just bites people. You want to learn the right way and learn from the best. You want to meet people who have the same identical interests as you, because, most of the time, there isn't anybody else around.

Pierre Auge
04-11-2007, 06:15 AM
Steve,
on that note I concede that I agree with that point, its nice to be around like minded folks! And as such its all good, but I just have to wonder about priorities... If its such a major expense thats its a burden worth complaining about but it isn't a business expense then what are people doing? I think those people need to reevaluate their priorities!

Steve Shafley
04-11-2007, 06:25 AM
It's a secret, Pierre, but I just like bitching online about shit.

Mike ODonnell
04-11-2007, 07:42 AM
Rip well said.....as I expected nothing less.....thank you for your input.

as for the theory of:
"I'll pull one of Alwyn Cosgrove's arguments out here: The closed loop - you spend $20 to educate yourself this turns over $200 - $200 turns over $2000 - $2000 turns over $20000... Granted he's trying to sell you educational material as he says this but its a damn good point none the less!"

It's a nice point....but not a law, ask any investor....as I can spend $2000 on advertising...and get $200 worth of business.....and I can spend $200 on my current clients, and get $2000 more business in referrals. That being said...sometimes it works that way....sometimes it doesn't. (I think I already hit this point about the rate of return on another post in here so I will not repeat myself)

Now my beef...people on here that take things without reading everything that is said, or just plainly ignoring what is said...so before someone goes on a rant and says I am not saying the cert is not worth the money..or calling me anti-anything....go re-read my other posts and see how much I say it is worth the money....may not be anything that I can afford to do as I have enough to do running my own business and enough expenses....but doesnt mean I wont say it's not worth it for those who can use it to advance their own learning or business earnings...

Derek Simonds
04-11-2007, 08:21 AM
Gentlemen:
In PPST we indicate our opinion that bullshit certifications like those obtained by the pinsetters at Gold's are not terribly credible. I will make this promise to you all: anyone attending this CF version of what is actually our Starting Strength Seminar that feels as though the money was poorly spent will be personally reimbursed by me - not CrossFit, but Mark Rippetoe.
Rip


Strong Conviction!

Thanks for taking the time to participate in the discussion.

Mark Rippetoe
04-11-2007, 11:55 AM
Thanks for the kind comments. Seems to be a higher-level discussion here than on some other boards. And Pierre is a good guy for a Frenchman.

Marc Ribbedeau

Bill Ripley
04-11-2007, 12:16 PM
Seems to be a higher-level discussion here than on some other boards. And Pierre is a good guy for a Frenchman.

So, does that mean you might hang around a bit?

Pierre Auge
04-11-2007, 12:48 PM
MOD,
I hope you don't think I was ranting about you? Because I wasn't, I personally think your rants are often humorus, direct, and spot on if I disagree with you I'll tell it to your avatar's face!

I think you're right about not every investment being equal but I am speaking in generalities, I think you know that, I just wanted to make sure. I just find people have to many things to complain about. Take away the protection of the machine and what have they got, real things to complain about! Like actual hunger, not the discomforts of attempting IF, or whether people could actually use some time learning from a real Professional about how to lift really heavy things... Because frankly our respective societies (remember I'm from another country) would be far better off as a whole if we had people like Rip teaching the masses how to properly pick shit up off the ground, sit their asses down and push stuff!

Pete Auger :cool:

Mike ODonnell
04-11-2007, 02:24 PM
MOD,
I hope you don't think I was ranting about you? Because I wasn't, I personally think your rants are often humorus, direct, and spot on if I disagree with you I'll tell it to your avatar's face!

Nah.....was just a general comment about the vibe around lately....I think the PM is getting the false anti-XX tag when in fact even though people agree and disagree about things it's all based on some solid and thought provocing comments that need to be voiced...and is healthy to do so...

Anyways every time I read your posts I have the French guy from Monty Python's Holy Grail in my head...so it always makes me laugh.... "I told them we already got one...." Ha....ahhhh Molsen....good beer....although you are still on probation for dissing Guiness.....

NHL playoffs start!! Finally some sports worth watching!!

Rip, hope you stick around...I know we will all benefit from your input...otherwise Pierre will never shut up... :D

Ron Nelson
04-11-2007, 05:15 PM
Pierre's French?
I thought he was just a poor-spelling Canadien. Somebody told me Anaheim has its own NHL team. I've never heard of them.
[/sarcasm]

Go Dodgers.

Robb Wolf
04-11-2007, 06:25 PM
Rip-
. You freaking rock...and I think you are generally correct aobut Pierre.

Lots of interesting stuff in this thread IMO. Something of note: I have drank Scotch with Dan in Colorado and I got to hang with Coach's Burgner, Rutherford and Rippetoe at Eva T's place. For those memories and host of other reasons I am forever grateful to CrossFit.

Rip-
We have both beer and BBQ in Chico...

Pierre Auge
04-11-2007, 07:55 PM
ugghhhhh don't mention BBQ! I just ate four full racks of side ribs from Montana's and now my guts are rything....

(h'all youc an heat rribs means dat you should eats as much az you can non? becauze de staff was uhh gedding annoyed dat my 150livre frame kept in-ailing entier racks of rribs wit no end in sight! tabarrouette!!!)

WELL THE END IS NEAR! UGGHhhhhhhh

Thanks for the kind words Robb, alldough I'm try-ing to figur outs whats you mean by "generally correct"? I tinks dat I ams compoletelly correct 94% of da time, generally confuser 32 pourcent du temps, undecided 67% of da times, and inebriated 1% ub da time! Ear in Quebec we hab 1litre beer bottles so take dat you wonderful American friends of mine....

(I neither live in Quebec, nor do I speak with a french accent but i can if you so choose! But if I turn on the french beware, it takes a serious intervention to turn it off ;))

Ken Urakawa
04-11-2007, 08:43 PM
Anyways every time I read your posts I have the French guy from Monty Python's Holy Grail in my head...so it always makes me laugh.... "I told them we already got one...." Ha....ahhhh Molsen....good beer....although you are still on probation for dissing Guiness.....


You hear the Python guy? I always hear the goalie from Slapshot.

Jesse Woody
04-12-2007, 04:52 AM
Hmmm...I guess I agree with everybody on this thread (is that possible?) If I had the time, I would definitely spend the money to train with Rip again because I would be 100% sure it's worth every penny. That being said, I've also had a chance to hang out with him twice (thanks for the multiple rides around Cali!) and I have to say that the knowledge that you can garner for free is a treasure to be appreciated...hell...I don't even think we hardly talked about lifting, mostly beer and barbecue! That's what has been so great about this community, the ability to go to an event and generally be in the presence of a ton of great people, all of which you can learn so much from. Whether I paid, came for free, got certified or was just there for a seminar doesn't matter as much as the fact that I've come away from every event with more useful knowledge than I came in with...and you can't argue with that!

Ron Nelson
04-12-2007, 05:18 PM
If I had the money, I'd BBQ with Rip, drink with Dan John, cuss with Steve Shafley, and fast with Robb Wolf.

Jesse Woody
04-12-2007, 05:32 PM
...all at the same time?

;)

Yael Grauer
04-12-2007, 05:51 PM
If I had the money, I'd BBQ with Rip, drink with Dan John, cuss with Steve Shafley, and fast with Robb Wolf.

And jump with Jesse.

Steve Liberati
04-12-2007, 05:59 PM
And jump with Jesse.

And rant with MOD:p

Steve Shafley
04-12-2007, 06:23 PM
Yeah, it's funny until your 3 1/2 year old daughter says "Shit"

And "Damn it" and, "You're not supposed to say "Shit" or "damn it", Daddy"

Mike ODonnell
04-12-2007, 06:42 PM
Yeah, it's funny until your 3 1/2 year old daughter says "Shit"

And "Damn it" and, "You're not supposed to say "Shit" or "damn it", Daddy"

at least she doesn't have an account at the P&B forum....

And rant with MOD:p

All that ELO music is making Steve cranky....or is it Feury?? :D

Steve Liberati
04-12-2007, 07:05 PM
All that ELO music is making Steve cranky....or is it Feury?? :D

Mike, I seriously wonder sometimes if your on our side or Walshy's:rolleyes:

Just breaking em for you man....being from Jersey and all, I actually enjoy your reading your rants. Most of the time there right on....

Mike ODonnell
04-12-2007, 07:10 PM
being from Jersey

I did 4 years in NJ....then I got parolled back to MA.....as for sides...I don't have a flying saucer ticket yet...so I guess on my own team sitting at the bar bitching about the Red Sox.....and the f'n Yankees.....

Steve Liberati
04-12-2007, 07:11 PM
I did 4 years in NJ....then I got parolled back to MA.....

Ex-con?

Mike ODonnell
04-12-2007, 07:19 PM
Ex-con?

Nah...just Jersey felt like prison....

Originally Posted by Ron Nelson View Post
If I had the money, I'd BBQ with Rip, drink with Dan John, cuss with Steve Shafley, and fast with Robb Wolf.
and compare mullet hair styles with Pierre the Frenchy
http://www.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0411/nhl_g_parros_200.jpg

Allen Yeh
04-13-2007, 04:46 AM
Yeah, it's funny until your 3 1/2 year old daughter says "Shit"

And "Damn it" and, "You're not supposed to say "Shit" or "damn it", Daddy"

"Shit" from my 21 month old son followed along with the evil glares from my wife. oops...

Steve Shafley
04-13-2007, 05:25 AM
Yep, mommas aren't happy to hear that.

Mike ODonnell
04-13-2007, 05:27 AM
And rant with MOD:p

You mean what grinds my gears....
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://sjl-static15.sjl.youtube.com/vi/bRwQ3eEVmQE/2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2YFASVsf5G4&h=97&w=130&sz=4&hl=en&start=13&um=1&tbnid=8aUMAkJ7W9DnDM:&tbnh=68&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfamily%2Bguy%2Bgrind%2Bgears%26svnum% 3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

Pierre Auge
04-13-2007, 06:20 AM
Nah...just Jersey felt like prison....


and compare mullet hair styles with Pierre the Frenchy
http://www.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0411/nhl_g_parros_200.jpg


Mike no mullet here, those guys are across the river... (really I'm serious) And since I went to play army last night I had to shave the beard... So I've gone from looking like a rugged 30+ish guy to a boyish early 20's...

Well I gues I should act my age...

Ron Nelson
04-19-2007, 10:09 AM
OK, I'm not one to start trouble. . .all the time. . ., but I just noticed that the CF PL certification is "Closed to the Public."

Huh?

Are there powerlifting secrets to be revealed that, if I knew them someone would just have to kill me? Or is this one of those certs open to military personnel only?

Maybe just a mistake and they meant "Sold Out?"

ponder ponder ponder

Greg Everett
04-19-2007, 10:13 AM
there are 2 - tthe first is closed to the public - i assume it's for CF trainers only too get them familiar with the material - and there's another the next month.

Ron Nelson
04-19-2007, 12:29 PM
Makes sense, but does nothing to quiet the conspiracy theory in my head.
Perhaps if I paid better attention to the dates, I'd have saved us some time.
Thanks for that, Greg.