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Sam Cannons
04-10-2007, 08:17 PM
What is best way of increasing the 1RM. I was going to start 10x1 3/week next week. Any idears, thought ?

Thankyou

Sam In Aus

Dave Van Skike
04-10-2007, 08:22 PM
What is best way of increasing the 1RM. I was going to start 10x1 3/week next week. Any idears, thought ?

Thankyou

Sam In Aus

Huyoooge question. I'm a fan of ladders. Look for Shaf's primer on ladders. Others will no doubt respond with more or less detailed responses. Ladders is the best advice I got for you.

http://performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=494

Also, I believe that everything makes my deadlift go up. Squats, good mornings, deadlifts from a deficit (like off a box), or snatch grip or even tall shoes like army boots. Peter has had good luck with OHS, rack pulls transferring. I have heard of people use clean high pulls and RDL's....It' my belief that if your DL isn't going up, you are either closing in on your genetic potential or you aren't working it very hard.

Gobs of info out there on DL. If you are brand new to DL, check out a copy of power to the people. or google it. Wait I'll tell you Pavel's big secret........ 2 sets of 5 everyday, one work set, one back off set. Start at a low weight, Nowhere close to failing, add 5 pounds a week. take a back off week every month and retest your max.

Sam Cannons
04-11-2007, 03:52 AM
Thanks Dave, i will give you a bit of background to make it clearer. I have only recently got enough weights at home to do a 1rm max deadlift, so i havent really ever done much 1rm max training. Compared to other lifts i think my dead is pretty shit so i really want to smash is it over the next 6 months. I wasnt sure about pavels stuff as it is only 2x5 a day.

I was going to add sets of 1rm every other day on top of the other crossfit Rx.

Again thanks for your help.

Jesse Woody
04-11-2007, 04:36 AM
I was going to add sets of 1rm every other day on top of the other crossfit Rx.

Sets of your max every other day? The deadlift is a VERY stressful movement. Being that you're new to it, you can handle more-frequent training, but every other day might still be a bit much, especially if you're lifting at or near max loads. If I were you I'd start with two days a week, and cut the Crossfit WOD's back to compensate for the added stress. Make one day heavy (7x3, 10x2, 5x1, etc.) and one day moderate-light (5x5, 2x8, etc.) To start out I'd keep at least two days rest between these efforts. This is the way I've approached the deadlift in the past, occasionally adding a third day or dropping to one day depending on how recovered I feel. I'm in no way a world-class deadlifter, but I have lifted 405# at a bodyweight of 175# which was up from a 325# max barely a year earlier. I think that with the deadlift recovery is especially important, so don't add too much to your plate at one time!

Bill Ripley
04-11-2007, 04:56 AM
Actually I think Pavel's PTTP would compliment CF nicely.

Steve Liberati
04-11-2007, 04:56 AM
Jesse's post is right on the money IMO. Proper rest and nutrition are often overlooked when addressing heavy lifts. Cushion the two and you'll see marked improvements.

Steve Shafley
04-11-2007, 05:23 AM
I'd recommend, initially, working up to a max single once a week. In good form.

Then, after that pans out, probably after 4-8 weeks, depending on your training age and status, you'll need to get trickier.

Rip, in his interview with Charles Staley, mentioned this sequence:

power clean->high pull->deadlift

These are called "progressive pulls".

If you can do PCs and high pulls, then this is an excellent way to build up pulling capacity, and an excellent way to insure you are warmed up.

An example, assuming ~500# DL max.

PC: 135x3, 185x3, 205x3, 225x3, 245x1
HP: 245x3, 275x3, 315x3, 335x1
DL: 335x1, 365x1, 405x1, 455x1, 475x1, 485x1

Steve Liberati
04-11-2007, 05:31 AM
Steve,
Any chance you have a link to that interview? I'd certainly like to check it out. Makes good sense.

Steve Shafley
04-11-2007, 06:05 AM
I think it's still here:

http://media.staleytraining.com/rippetoe.mp3

Rick Deckart
04-11-2007, 06:59 AM
For a beginner there a plenty ways to improve the deadlift without training it much at all. For example work on squats, occassionaly do deadlifts like Steve described, the deadlift will most likely rise too.

Rack pulls or pulls from blocks helped me big time (okay my weights are so tiny they don't deserve any mentioning but still...) OHS brought some good transfer for me, but in all fairness I did a lot of volume with it. Not sure if that would be worthwhile for others.

Identifiy your weakness (the start, transition around knees, lockout) and give it some extra work.

One thing not mentioned so far, straps. These can and will increase your deadlift considerably. Don't know why but there is some linkage between hands and back/legs. If you feel that you can't hold a weight it won't move. Use straps and the very same weight may fly up... Happened to me on several occassions when I did deadlifts.

Dave Van Skike
04-11-2007, 09:21 AM
Thanks Dave, i will give you a bit of background to make it clearer. I have only recently got enough weights at home to do a 1rm max deadlift, so i havent really ever done much 1rm max training. Compared to other lifts i think my dead is pretty shit so i really want to smash is it over the next 6 months. I wasnt sure about pavels stuff as it is only 2x5 a day.

I was going to add sets of 1rm every other day on top of the other crossfit Rx.

Again thanks for your help.



Don't dismiss the PTP stuff out of hand, it's actually very productive for a lot of folks who are new to high percentage training. The volume will sneak up on you but generally will leave you refreshed enough for the other stuff you want to do.

All in all, I'd defer to Steve's take as he has a good deal of experience in that artena. As far as "maxing" every other day, if you are relatively new to heavy deadlifting, technically you don't have a 1 rep max, yu have a sorta sorta maxi (trademark DJ enterprises) I suspect that progressive pulls 2-3 days a week which might be taxing for someone who deadlifts double bodyweight or above, wouldn't be too tough on you at first. (your xfitr performance shoudl suffer) As your numbers go up, you'll need a lot more rest, unless of course you have freakshow-long monkey arms and are anatomically gifted for the DL. In which case, you might be able to push the percentages and volume with no ill effects. I'm a relative lifting rookie and at first I could deadlift "heavy" every other day. Teh I did a cycle of PTP, and soem othe rprogressiosn after that like Dan Johns' one lift a day. Within about a 3 months, the work sets on my DL had increased by well over 150 pounds and I could only hit it hard once maybe twice a week.

Steve's suggestion is probably the safest bet for you as it involves a lot pulling volume without a ton of actual DL volume.

Rick Deckart
04-11-2007, 09:38 AM
I'd recommend, initially, working up to a max single once a week. In good form.

Then, after that pans out, probably after 4-8 weeks, depending on your training age and status, you'll need to get trickier.

Rip, in his interview with Charles Staley, mentioned this sequence:

power clean->high pull->deadlift

These are called "progressive pulls".

If you can do PCs and high pulls, then this is an excellent way to build up pulling capacity, and an excellent way to insure you are warmed up.

An example, assuming ~500# DL max.

PC: 135x3, 185x3, 205x3, 225x3, 245x1
HP: 245x3, 275x3, 315x3, 335x1
DL: 335x1, 365x1, 405x1, 455x1, 475x1, 485x1

Steve I might give this a whirl in a while but have a couple of questions:
Is that one or your actual workouts? Three deadlifts over 90% of 1RM max seems pretty tough after that kind of warmup. How long did it take you to recover from that session?

BTW I second Daves statement that you cannot do maxes every other day in the deadlifts once you pull some weight close to your current max. That will simply not work unless you are genetically gifted or willing to take mega-rests of over 10min between the singles and even then I would burn out in no time...

Steve Shafley
04-11-2007, 10:26 AM
It's a 1x weekly thing.

And, yeah, that's pretty close to this:

PC:
135x3, 135x3, 185x3, 185x3, 205x3, 225x3
CHP:
225x3, 275x3, 315x3
DL:
315x3, 365x3, 405x3, 455x1, 475x1, 495x1

Which is directly taken from my ADD log at the P&B. My max in the DL right now is probably ~540-550 (that's max max with psyche, probably 515-535 without the frothing at the mouth).
I do them by feel, and very often don't worry about percents.

PC: Up to a moderately hard triple or single.
CHP: (clean grip high pull): Up to a moderately hard single or triple
DL: Up to a daily max single...no psyche.

I also like just the PC+DL combo.

This isn't even dabbling in all the different DL and other variations you can do. In an old "Get Up" I have a rambling article about "Deadlift Voodoo" with all kinds of crazy babbling.

DEADLIFT VOODOO from the June 2004 Get Up Newsletter.

Out of all the powerlifts, it seems that the majority of lifters have trouble with the deadlift. There are some verypowerful reasons for this:

1. The deadlift movement doesn't lend itself well to supportive equipment.
2. The deadlift starts from a dead stop. Reactive strength won't help you here.
3. For most, deadlifting is no fun at all. It's a hard, brutal, grinding lift.

One very interesting thing is to look at the meet results between a federation like the APF and a federation like the USAPL. The deadlifts in the USAPL are much higher in relation to the squats. This is directly related to the equipment used. Some guys squatting 1000 lbs in unlimited fed are barely pulling ~650 lb in the same meet.

The guys at Westside Barbell maintain that the deadlift has the highest drain on the CNS (central nervous system). Up until recently, they preferred to address this issue by using a majority of non-pulling special exercises. It's nice to just toss a blanket over the whole thing, and say that the deadlift is a killer on the CNS, and not pull and hope for the best. I've done this myself. In one meet I had a significant PR, in another, I regressed.

Looking over my training logs, I didn't see all that much difference between the way I trained for either meet, except one was a push/pull and one was a full meet.

When you look at the deadlift, and analyze the lift, it should be readily apparent that it makes a bigger dent in the CNS than an equivalent squat, and here's why:

1. The grip: You have to hold onto the deadlift with your hands. You don't think it matters? I can practically guarantee that MOST (but not all) lifters can deadlift more when using straps. Don't forget your hands are the most innervated part of your body.
2. The full body aspect: The deadlift is probably the most full-body, brute strength, low skill lift you can do.
3. The mental aspect: Psyching for a maximum deadlift is tiring and an ordeal. The low skill required to pull a deadlift allows a lifter to really get agitated and froth at the mouth when preparing for the max pull. You can bet that this is going to take it's toll on the CNS.
4. The grinding nature of the deadlift. The competitive deadlift is not
a fast lift. The lifter must be able to send a large impulse to overcome gravity and get the deadlift moving and then must maintain that impulse to finish the lift.

There are always exceptions. Some lifters pull and pull and pull and don't have a problem with it. I know of one guy who pulled max deadlifts every week for a period of 2 years, and his deadlift went from ~500lbs to ~800lbs. He didn't know his CNS was fried. If pulling a max deadlift every week would do that for me, I'd be hopping right on the bandwagon. This lifter suffers from OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) and I suspect that this has a lot to do with his brute- force, straightforward plan and results. For some, like the lifter above, the no-deadlift approach doesn't cut it. For others, it's a godsend.

I haven't quite figured out how to tell if a lifter should pull more often or not, but I think it might have something to do with the difference between a lifter's stifflegged deadlift and good morning (this insight was brought to you by Kip Miller of the HOUSE OF HURT fame). If a lifter excels as stiff- legged deadlifts, they are probably more suitable for a routine based around more frequent pulling. If they excel at the good morning, then using an assortment of
special exercises with some skill andspeed work on the deadlift throw in may be a better approach.

This is an old Westside recommended program for deadlifting:
Week 1 - 15 singles @ 65%
Week 2 - 12 singles @ 70%
Week 3 - 10 singles @ 75%
Week 4 - 8 singles @ 80%
Week 5 - 6 singles @ 85%

Kip Miller swears by this, and says it's worked for him every time he uses it. He also says it works really well using the reverse band technique instead of regular deadlifts (you hang the bar from some jumpstretch bands so it deloads as you get higher)

If you watch the training logs on EliteFTS you will see that they are doing more pulling. A lot of it is speed pulls with bands attached to the floor (as opposed to reverse band pulls), and there is a pretty decent amount of it done while standing on some kind of platform. This varies significantly from what they have done in the past.

You'll see some interesting things coming out of Westside in the next year or so about improving the deadlift, because it's the last frontier. Once Louie Simmons turns his eclectic talent towards improving the deadlift of his club, you will be seeing some improvement. It's already started and you can see that in one of his later articles "Deadlifts on the Rise" or something on the Westside-Barbell site.

Here are some ideas I've had while brainstorming deadlift training.
They are varied, and some chime with what WBC recommends and some go against the grain. Training yourself often involves a significant amount of experimentation.

Bottom position work is an excellent choice for ME work or assistance work. One of my favorite lifts to help the deadlift is the bottom position start zercher squat. This is a painful lift, but very effective for helping maintain the stability of the "core" during the deadlift. Bottom position GMs also seemed to help much more than regular GMs. Bottom position work seems to jar my spine and joints more than regular work. In terms of the central nervous system, this helps train for that big initial impulse to get the lift moving.

I also think isometrics at the bottom position and at the "critical joint
configuration" (a term used by DB Hammer at www.inno-sport.net , who's training methods are based on training the nervous system, not the necessarily the musculature) might help, but haven't gotten around to experimenting with them yet. The CJC for the deadlift is supposedly around knee level and at the floor. The recommendations for these types of isometrics don't involve pulling against a immovable bar, but rather lowering the bar to the proper position and holding it there for a specified amount of time. This would have a beneficial effect on a lifter's ability to maintain the required CNS impulse for a longer duration.

In addition, heavy, (and I mean eventually working up to bodyweight or
greater) side bends or isometric suitcase deadlift holds, or one handed farmers walks, or suitcase deadlifts might assist here too. The lateral or side-to-side stability of the spine becomes an issue with the mixed grip typically used for competition deadlifting. It's a big enough issue for some (like Brad Gillingham and my friend Wade Hanna) to switch to the painful hook grip, and spend months acclimatizing the thumbs to that sort of pressure and pain.

I have just started dabbling with "density" type deadlifting. I'll take a 20 minute block of time, and perform deadlifts with a set weight. Over time, your workload will increase as you get better and better at pulling with that weight. When it reaches a certain threshold, you add weight. I've arbitrarily set this threshold at ~30 repetitions. This concept is highly recommended by Bryce Lane (who keeps an excellent website at
http://home.comcast.net/~joandbryce/ and a forum at
http://pub101.ezboard.com/btheironworks) and the strength coach Charles Staley, who really delves into it in his EDT (Escalating Density Training) concepts. Incidentally, the DOMS that occurred after the first session of this type of pulling kept my training partner home from work the next day. Not for the light hearted.

It's all Deadlift Voodoo. What works for me doesn't work for you. What works for me one meet, doesn't work the next.

It's hard, brutal labor that often doesn't pay off. The deadlift is a harsh mistress.

Rick Deckart
04-11-2007, 10:38 AM
Thanks Steve,

I think I will try that every other week between the two Hatch cycle days. The other week will be some sort of working the rack down ala Sumo, done after my Joe Mills type20/20 workout. One set of 10 reps around 85% of 1RM reducing height every session (every 14 days) 25mm.

And sorry for hijacking the thread.

Steve Shafley
04-11-2007, 10:45 AM
One other idea I had for the deadlift, but never tried was an alternating program of pulling from a deficit (i.e. standing on 1-3" platform) and the next workout (either during the same week, or perform one DL based workout each week) you'd pull from a surplus.

Instead of doing rack pulls, I'd do a pull from 1-2" above my knee, which seems to relate to a weak point in my deadlift.

Dave Van Skike
04-11-2007, 02:09 PM
Woudl you still do this on day per week basis?

Or, do you think slightly higher volume would work as you working lower weights on the deficit work?

This is sort of the logic I've been working towards to get tha DL moving again.

Monday is higher volume but lower intensity, pulling from a snatch grip or off a block in my squat shoes.

Wed. pull from a rack maybe with straps. Low volume, but very high intensity.

Saturday. High intensity, very low volume. Work up to a heavy single or a triple.

I suppose if I was over 500 pounds in the DL it would be too much. At my more modest numbers, (I work set of 315 from a snatch grip) it might be do-able.


One other idea I had for the deadlift, but never tried was an alternating program of pulling from a deficit (i.e. standing on 1-3" platform) and the next workout (either during the same week, or perform one DL based workout each week) you'd pull from a surplus.

Instead of doing rack pulls, I'd do a pull from 1-2" above my knee, which seems to relate to a weak point in my deadlift.

Sam Cannons
04-11-2007, 04:14 PM
Thanks for the help, tons of good stuff here. My current 1rm is about 145kg and i have set a goal for 200 by next year.

Regards

Sam In Aus

Gary John
04-11-2007, 07:25 PM
Shaf had the Westside program in an old GetUp. That was my first experience with the dead and I went through it three times.

Spent part of the summer doing SLDL's off 4-inch blocks. 5x10, minute between sets, at about 160#. Set me up for huge improvements in pulling.

I keep pushing rack pulls, but that was what really changed the middle of my dead. Shaf's ladder program, again three times through put a 150# improvement on my rack pull. Actually ran out of weight and had to buy more.

SGDL's are great and just get you strong.

Recently did 3sets of 5 in under a minute with 315# in the dead. I'm not trying for a max, cuz I lift to throw, but right now, I'm curious.

Steve Shafley
04-11-2007, 07:46 PM
Frequency depends on how fresh you keep yourself.

Lower volume and relative intensities allow more frequency.

Sometimes, you just got to say "F@ck it" and try it.

Rick Deckart
04-12-2007, 01:15 AM
Out of curiosity, what is your current bodyweight Sam?

Steve actually I thought about working the rack down into a deficit, as the start is one of th weak link in my deadlift, well, if I think about it everything below and around the knees... Once over the knees I have plenty of leverage.

Rick Deckart
04-12-2007, 12:01 PM
I started my little routine today. A hard 10 rep set with 130kg from 415mm. I will reduce height every session ~25mm or whatever the plates I have allow and intend to increase the load 1--1.5kg every session. I will also do the progressive pulls every other week, but only singles and adding a fourth wave, partial deadlifts to a max of the day, alternating between snatch grip and clean grip. We will see how that turns out. Thanks Shaf for your postings. And sorry again Sam for hijacking the thread.

Sam Cannons
04-12-2007, 03:26 PM
75-78 Kg about 5 11, 24years old.

Sam Cannons
04-12-2007, 03:28 PM
question with the CFT vid posted, will your back always round on 1rm deads ?

Robb Wolf
04-12-2007, 03:36 PM
Sam-
It really depends. The back round can allow for some greater poundage do to some leverage factors but the flat, locked back is the ticket for health and longevity at this stuff.

Just as an aside...OL'ers tend not to round their backs much if at all when performing 1RM dl's. Not sure if this is a carry over from the OL back squat and the general upright torso in the receiving position of the snatch and C&J or what.

Steve Liberati
04-12-2007, 04:10 PM
Anyone else notice they lift more on a fast day than on a feed day? Over the last 2-3 months, I've noticed I lift heavier weight on days that I fast as opposed to days that I eat all day. Not sure the science behind it (if there is any?) but definately realized a traffic pattern there.

Also like to add that some of these elaborate rep schemes suggested are more geared towards the competitive athlete IMO. The reason I say that is because while there is no question you will increase your 1RM, there is a price to pay for admission. By focusing solely on hitting numbers, other aspects of your athleticism will suffer. In other words, by neglecting such aspects of metcon and interval training, fat loss will most likely come to a halt. Sure you can spend 2-3 of the other days doing high intensity type training but then say good bye to proper rest and recovery.

Not saying this is the BEST way to go, but I personally found doing the WOD's along with one day a week of strength training to be the middle ground (using this exact workout: http://www.arthurdevany.com/2005/04/my_current_work.html) Not only did I see myself getting leaner as ever before, but each month progressively beating my previous PR's (as measured by the CrossFit Total).

Today I hit my personal best on the deadlift with 465 lbs. (bw: 188lbs).
Increased 15 lbs from last month. Again, not saying this is the best way to increase your 1RM, but it has worked very well for me WHILE losing bf at the same time (if that is one of your goals). However, if your competitive and don't care so much about body comp...I'd say give one of these exclusive strength programs a shot.

Steve Shafley
04-12-2007, 06:20 PM
Steve:

I suspect that it's because there's overall more energy for the muscles with the digestive system clear.

Steve Liberati
04-12-2007, 06:34 PM
Steve:

I suspect that it's because there's overall more energy for the muscles with the digestive system clear.

Steve:

Is this common knowledge for powerlifters and other competitive athletes? Do most PL'ers fast leading up to their event? I know the pre-workout meals is open to much debate and personal preference, but just wondering where most guys lifting strictly for strength gains stand on this?

Mike ODonnell
04-12-2007, 07:06 PM
Steve:

I suspect that it's because there's overall more energy for the muscles with the digestive system clear.

I noticed much better efforts on empty stomach in all sorts of activities....lifts....run...bike...hockey......al most like my CNS is at optimal levels and my muscles are exploding........put in a full stomach and I feel like lead.....much like coffee gets me going.....so fast + coffee = CNS overdrive and crazy ass performance.......