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View Full Version : Nice Cosgrove write up.


Dave Van Skike
04-11-2007, 09:55 AM
Simple.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1526539

Could easily seea a crossfit style WOD progression for fat loss based on this hierarchy.

Allen Yeh
04-11-2007, 10:25 AM
Simple.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1526539

Could easily seea a crossfit style WOD progression for fat loss based on this hierarchy.

I like his little wrap up at the end, which matched the different times availible per week with methods suggested.

Mike ODonnell
04-11-2007, 11:09 AM
"I've made more money from the fat loss market than any other single client group. Over the years my methods have evolved and been refined by what I see in the gym. Simply put, if I can get 20 pounds of fat off a client faster than my competition, I have a higher demand for my services."

Bing-f'n-go....as that is where is money is in the fitness market....

Good stuff.....most of the stuff he has preached before as I know he is all about EPOC and HIIT....basically you want to do everything to build muscle, keep muscle, and burn fat all day long (and night)...anything else that takes away from that equation is not needed. Compound movements, short rests, lactic acid training...all that is needed.

There should be a study on various HIIT protocols and which is best for fat burning, EPOC...is it 20sec on/10 sec rest (tabata), 1min on/30 sec recovery...or this study that has 4min on/2 recovery....of course conditioning of the person comes into play as well....


TWO WEEKS OF HIGH-INTENSITY AEROBIC INTERVAL TRAINING INCREASES THE CAPACITY FOR FAT OXIDATION DURING EXERCISE IN WOMEN
Jason L Talanian1*, Stuart D.R. Galloway2, George J.F. Heigenhauser3, Arend Bonen1, and Lawrence L. Spriet1

Our aim was to examine the effects of seven high intensity aerobic interval training (HIIT) sessions over two weeks on skeletal muscle fuel content, mitochondrial enzyme activities, fatty acid transport proteins, VO2peak, and whole body metabolic, hormonal and cardiovascular responses to exercise. Eight females participated in the study (22.1 ± 0.2 yrs, 65.0 ± 2.2 kg, VO2peak: 2.36 ± 0.24 l·min-1). Subjects performed a VO2peak test and a 60-min cycling trial at ~60% VO2peak prior to and following training. Each session consisted of ten, 4-min bouts at ~90% VO2peak with 2-min rest between intervals. Training increased VO2peak by 13%. Following HIIT, plasma epinephrine and heart rate were lower during the final 30-min of the 60-min cycling trial at ~60% pre-training VO2peak. Exercise whole body fat oxidation (PRE: 15.0 ± 2.4, POST: 20.4 ± 2.5 g) increased 36% following HIIT. Resting muscle glycogen and triacylglycerol contents were unaffected by HIIT, but net glycogen use was reduced during the post-training 60-min cycling trial. HIIT significantly increased muscle mitochondrial {beta}-HAD (PRE: 15.44 ± 1.57, POST: 20.35 ± 1.40 mmol·min-1·kg wm-1) and citrate synthase (PRE: 24.45 ± 1.89, POST: 29.31 ± 1.64 mmol·min-1·kg wm-1) maximal activities by 32% and 20%, while cytoplasmic HSL protein content was not significantly increased. In addition, total muscle FABPpm content increased significantly (25%), while FAT/CD36 content was unaffected following training. In summary, seven sessions of HIIT over two weeks induced marked increases in whole body and skeletal muscle capacity for fatty acid oxidation during exercise in moderately active women.

Mike ODonnell
04-11-2007, 11:37 AM
Could easily seea a crossfit style WOD progression for fat loss based on this hierarchy.

Based on that article I would guess you would want circuits lasting 3-4 min with a 1-2 min recovery and repeat....or SS 5-10 compound exercises of reps 5-10 and rest and repeat SS circuit.....or run 800meter sprints....all good variations to go with....

Greg Everett
04-11-2007, 02:32 PM
excellent article. will be helpful when more and more of this seeps into the mainstream when i'm trying to explain to my fat clients why they're not going for leisurely cruises on the bike while i'm on the clock.

Mike ODonnell
04-11-2007, 02:52 PM
excellent article. will be helpful when more and more of this seeps into the mainstream when i'm trying to explain to my fat clients why they're not going for leisurely cruises on the bike while i'm on the clock.

Unless Oprah tells them to do it.....good luck.....

Ron Nelson
04-11-2007, 04:45 PM
Which leads me to today's poignant commercial gym observation from me, your intrepid reporter:

Most trainers in commercial gyms don't know the first thing about fat loss or training their clients. As seen today, trainers having their obese clients perform curls with a 20lb bar instead of compound movements that build muscle and burn pounds of fat.
(sorry, can't resist a John Basedow reference)

Also, seen at the market today: "Fitness for Dummies." I ain't lying. I was afraid to read it or I'd see articles on jogging and step aerobics.

Oh, I like Cosgrove's stuff.

Mike ODonnell
04-11-2007, 04:55 PM
Most trainers in commercial gyms don't know the first thing about fat loss or training their clients. As seen today, trainers having their obese clients perform curls with a 20lb bar instead of compound movements that build muscle and burn pounds of fat.

Since most trainers learn more about sales and making money than fitness....it only serves them to not get their clients any results....after all since they are selling 6-12 month personal training.....why would they want their client to get results in 3 months and not need them anymore for tricep kickbacks and more core work.....

Ron Nelson
04-11-2007, 09:53 PM
Good points MOD.

The other thing that kills me is charging suckers $50/hr or more and then watching them warm up on the stairclimber for 20 min.
If it was me, and it never would be, I'd make the trainer go get me a drink of water.

I know the trainers on this site (even certain trainers with the initials MOD) would never rip people off like that.

Allen Yeh
04-12-2007, 03:01 AM
Good points MOD.

The other thing that kills me is charging suckers $50/hr or more and then watching them warm up on the stairclimber for 20 min.
If it was me, and it never would be, I'd make the trainer go get me a drink of water.

I know the trainers on this site (even certain trainers with the initials MOD) would never rip people off like that.

50??? Where do you live again?? In DC the Washington Sports Club are charging people 80-100 (but the trainer only gets 1/3 of that...if they are lucky, so 2/3 goes to the corporate office!??! I never understood that part).

MOD is right though, even though my training knowledge back then doesn't compare to what I have learned now I was still more fitness savvy than all the bosses I had as a trainer. I always viewed them more like car salesmen than trainers.

Mike ODonnell
04-12-2007, 05:18 AM
Good points MOD.

The other thing that kills me is charging suckers $50/hr or more and then watching them warm up on the stairclimber for 20 min.
If it was me, and it never would be, I'd make the trainer go get me a drink of water.

I know the trainers on this site (even certain trainers with the initials MOD) would never rip people off like that.

You are absolutely right....I charge $75 for a 10min session.....

My favorite are the trainers charging $50 an hour....having 4-5 clients at one time....and not really paying attention to any of them as he is on the phone chatting away....sitting on one machine and acting like a traffic cop telling people which machine to go to next....and then the clients say "Ohhh, he's such a great trainer...I really feel it". Really? Was it the 10 min of solo lunges that maybe did it, not him?? I think it pisses me off more that I can't ditch my morals and make $250/hr....on the other hand...can't put all the blame all trainers as they are a product of their environment...a gym taking 40%, only offering long term training packages and putting 15 trainers on the floor so they all have to compete and get as many sales as possible...I can't even imagine what it is like in CA with all the "I trained a movie star" trainers and their egos for $200/hour....must be using solid gold 2lb weights for those rear delt raises...

Robb Wolf
04-13-2007, 01:02 PM
So...complexes and high volume multi-joint movements increase BMR the most. Right on the heels we find hi intensity intervals.

What we appear to be looking for is muscular damage that requires a raised metabolic rate to repair, deep inroads with regards to substrate availability, particularly glycogen which is again energy intensive to restore and a hormonal environment that favors fat over glucose for most of these repairs.

Here is a question I have:

Is something like a Frellen (400m run, 15 thrusters, 15 pull-ups) the BEST option for fat loss? Best being return on investment time-wise.

Or do we get better mileage out of some density training (10 min of thrusters and pull-ups...body rows for the heavy folks) and then intervals on the C2 rower?

And in the case of the Frellen a steady state WO (3 rounds for time) or a Power Bias (2min rest between rounds)?


My gut sense is the classic CF WOD...a run or row mixed with some full body movements is the best return on investment. Thoughts?

Greg Everett
04-13-2007, 01:10 PM
I think unfortunately in many cases the question of what is best has to be considered within the question of what can the client handle. Even if a CF WOD is best in ideal circumstances, there are plenty of folks, particularly in the weight loss crowd, who simply cannot perform them. When scaled to their abilities, they resemble the WOD so little I have to wonder how effective they are. In the case of extremely reduced volume, it's clear there must be some supplemental work, e.g. intervals.

So yes I would say the classic run/row WOD is ideal, but for those who can't handle adequate volume/ROM/etc. to maximize intensity, intervals following the scaled version is the best we can do.

Mike ODonnell
04-13-2007, 01:42 PM
like Greg said...I think the highest intensity a person can handle is probably the best option....I've found good results with people mixing between work effort of 3-4 min with 1 min recovery for lower intense intervals and 30sec on/30 sec recovery change exercises if doing more intense circuits with 5-10 stations......I like to try and get the more intense sessions with me...and have them do less intense intervals (bike/treadmill) on their own.....either way the energy demands will be pretty high, but I do think programs with recovery and rest protocols are needed....especially for less conditioned people as I want more energy output for the weighted exercises...for real beginners you could also just do a standard weight training only for 20min, deplete all muscle glycogen with compound movements with reps of 10-12, short rest periods...and then send them to the treadmill to walk uphill at 60% MHR for another 20 min as they burn more fat (since they have no more glycogen and are now living in the oxidative energy system)......that and fat loss is 85%+ nutrition....

Jamila Bey
04-17-2007, 10:36 PM
Not at all specific enough...

I want to know (along with 50 other people who posted the same question) clearly how to distinguish b/w HIAnaerobicIT and HIAerobicIT and at what work to rest interval protocol. Also, sample routines for each proposed span of workout time would not have been unwelcome.

The editor in me would have sent Alwyn back with a sheet of notes.

Then again, perhaps this is just article 1 in a 2 or 3 part series? I can hope.

Mike Moore
04-17-2007, 11:52 PM
Based on that article I would guess you would want circuits lasting 3-4 min with a 1-2 min recovery and repeat....or SS 5-10 compound exercises of reps 5-10 and rest and repeat SS circuit.....or run 800meter sprints....all good variations to go with....

Mike, if your comments are in reference to the following study, I'm not sure that I agree with your conclussion, or perhaps I misunderstand you (or the study).

TWO WEEKS OF HIGH-INTENSITY AEROBIC INTERVAL TRAINING INCREASES THE CAPACITY FOR FAT OXIDATION DURING EXERCISE IN WOMEN
Jason L Talanian1*, Stuart D.R. Galloway2, George J.F. Heigenhauser3, Arend Bonen1, and Lawrence L. Spriet1

The study, as I understand it, specifically looks at the effects of a particular training program (10 intervals consisting of 4 minutes work and 2 minutes rest) on SUBSTRATE UTILIZATION DURING EXERCISE. While VO2peak did increase, I don't think that was any earth shaking news. Several points are in order:

1. The study used ONE training protocol. While it showed that that particular protocal achieved the specified effect, i.e. improved fat utilization DURING exercize, it does NOT show that the particular protocol employed is the OPTIMAL protocol to achieve that result.
2. This particular study does NOT show that the protocol used is the optimal protocol for some other training objective, e.g. improvement in VO2max, sprinting speed, faster 400m time, etc.
3. This study does NOT demonstrate that the protocol employed is ideal for fat loss because (a) it does not compare this protocol with any others, and (b) substrate utilization DURING exercise is likely LESS important, in terms of fat loss than, than EPOC. While increased utilization of fatty acids during exercise is important for some performances and may be beneficial for fat loss, if the primary training objective is fat loss (and you likely have clients with various goals), let's compare the effects of studies on total fat lost, not just on fat utilization during 60 minutes of exercise.
4. I think Jamilla raises a great question regarding anaerobic vs aerobic HIIT. In answer to her question, I think BOTH types of training have their time and place and the W:R ratios and total times depend on the particualr training goals as well as the level of conditioning of the athlete.
(Jamilla, I know that's pretty vague, but it's 2:50 AM and I have class in the morning - will try to add more later.)

Robb Wolf
04-18-2007, 04:11 PM
Mike-
Great stuff! Flesh that out more if you get time, super interested.

David Wood
04-18-2007, 07:47 PM
Are we over-thinking this a bit here?

Seriously, I'm kind of surprised to think that there is a difference between High Intensity (Anaerobic) Training and High Intensity (Aerobic) Training . . . in fact, I would have said that if it's "High Intensity", it pretty much has to be "Anaerobic", doesn't it? If you can do the work using only aerobic metabolism, is it still "high intensity"?

I get the idea that cranking up EPOC is a big part of Alwyn's strategy . . . is it really that important to fine-tune the workout to the nth degree?

For me, 8 sets of 1-minute on / 1-minute off seems to do it reasonably nicely . . . the 1-minute "on" is all-out for whatever I'm doing (uphill sprints, 300 meters on the C2, go hard on the bike, whatever), and the 1-minute 'off' is just "cruising" until I get my breath back. 1 minute isn't always enough, so I tend to start the later rounds not fully recovered, which makes them 'interesting'.

Does it really need to be more complex than this? I'm thinking I've got Pareto's rule in my favor here . . .

Mike ODonnell
04-18-2007, 08:17 PM
Diet is 85%+ of fat loss.....the other stuff while fun to talk about is not amounting to huge calorie burns over periods of time...as EPOC and all that stuff is kinda overrated.....eating right and burning fat all day through maintaining a strong metabolism is more key.....the only benefit of all that HIT stuff is the release of GH post workout. Yes we are overthinking HIT.....as people can still lose weight and gain muscle without it. (from a fat loss point of view) ....30sec ...2min ...4min .... whatever....it will all most likely do what you want from it. Unless there is a study on which has a greater release of GH pwo. Either way...we are probably fighting over a 100 cal difference.

Mike Moore
04-18-2007, 08:34 PM
Hey Robb, thanks for the note. I'm busy on a project for the next few weeks, but since a lot of this stuff on the forum is an ongoing educational process, I guess there's no rush. Sometimes it's better to have good info a litter later than bad info a little sooner. Anyway, on the topic of interval training, I was interested if anyone has had any experience with ultra short interval training. I learned this concept several years ago and and have had some great workouts using it and it makes a great deal of sense for some of my athletes as PART of their training during PARTICULAR times of the year. Basically, it involves 8-12 second work intervals and 18-22 second rest intervals for activities such as running, treadmill, wall ball, etc. (You might want to look at it as a Reverse Tabata). I need to go back and look at the basic science behind everything, but my recollection is that there is a connection with the oxygen carried by myoglobin. Anyway, once you zone in on the correct W:R times (and they are usually in the range I noted - DO NOT USE A WORK TIME OVER 15 SECONDS!), the rest should be adequate such that work intensity can be maintained at maximal or near maximal levels as lactate buildup should not be a problem (if it is, adjust W and R times), but your respiratory rate will go thru the roof. It is a very different experience. If it is important that the athlete's skill movements are performed correctly, i.e. that they don't deteriorate due to local muscle factors, this works very well. I do not use it exclusively because I train a number of wrestlers and they need to perform physically and mentally under conditions associated with high blood lactate levels - although in my experience too much interval training associated with high lactate levels is very difficult to tolerate. The ultra short intervals are a nice addition/alternative. Will add more on this later, but was interested to know if others have experience - good or bad - with this type of training. If you haven't treid it, give it a go. I usually aim for 30-40 work intervals, ie 15-20 minutes of work.

Mike Moore
04-18-2007, 08:45 PM
Diet is 85%+ of fat loss.....the other stuff while fun to talk about is not amounting to huge calorie burns over periods of time...as EPOC and all that stuff is kinda overrated.....eating right and burning fat all day through maintaining a strong metabolism is more key.....the only benefit of all that HIT stuff is the release of GH post workout. Yes we are overthinking HIT.....as people can still lose weight and gain muscle without it. (from a fat loss point of view) ....30sec ...2min ...4min .... whatever....it will all most likely do what you want from it. Unless there is a study on which has a greater release of GH pwo. Either way...we are probably fighting over a 100 cal difference.

Mike, I totally agree....and someone else's diet is a hard thing to control. :eek: When working with athletes though, the other stuff comes in to play as fat loss is not our only goal. Most of my athletes are wrestlers. If I train them with long and slow stuff...well you know the rest. Work intervals that I use pre and early season differ from those I use in the late season when peaking for state/national tournaments.

Yael Grauer
04-18-2007, 08:47 PM
I did 15 seconds of sprinting and 45 seconds of rest on a treadmill for 20 minutes five days a week when I was trying to improve my run time in my pre-Crossfit days. It was an idea from a boxer/boxing coach/SF stud I know. I got my 12-minute mile down to a 7-minute mile this way.

Jamila Bey
04-18-2007, 09:25 PM
Hey Yael, how long did it take for that GREAT improvement? And what effect on body comp did it have?

Allen Yeh
04-19-2007, 04:11 AM
Are we over-thinking this a bit here?

Seriously, I'm kind of surprised to think that there is a difference between High Intensity (Anaerobic) Training and High Intensity (Aerobic) Training . . . in fact, I would have said that if it's "High Intensity", it pretty much has to be "Anaerobic", doesn't it? If you can do the work using only aerobic metabolism, is it still "high intensity"?

I get the idea that cranking up EPOC is a big part of Alwyn's strategy . . . is it really that important to fine-tune the workout to the nth degree?

For me, 8 sets of 1-minute on / 1-minute off seems to do it reasonably nicely . . . the 1-minute "on" is all-out for whatever I'm doing (uphill sprints, 300 meters on the C2, go hard on the bike, whatever), and the 1-minute 'off' is just "cruising" until I get my breath back. 1 minute isn't always enough, so I tend to start the later rounds not fully recovered, which makes them 'interesting'.

Does it really need to be more complex than this? I'm thinking I've got Pareto's rule in my favor here . . .

David while I agree intensity is the key, by definition true anaerobic work is mainly the work of the phosphagen and glycotic pathways right? So to keep these efforts mainly in the phosphagen path then you'd want to keep the duration of the work along the guidelines that Mike Moore said of 5-12 seconds and then to recovery that system completely you'd want a work rest ratio along the lines of 1:12-1:20 (that's a number pulled from CFJ #56).

Then aerobic HIIT would be something of longer duration while INTENSE, you still would be more in the glycolytic/oxidative pathways. So your actual work would be 1-3 minutes and the work/rest ratio is somewhere more along the lines of 1:2-1:4 and true oxidative work is 3 minutes+ and the work/rest would be more along the lines of 1:1.

I'm not saying from a best VO2 max or best conditioning work/rest ratio, it was just my conjecture to what Alwyn Cosgrove meant in his article for the Anaerobic HIIT and Aerobic HIIT.

Mike ODonnell
04-19-2007, 06:03 AM
I did 15 seconds of sprinting and 45 seconds of rest on a treadmill for 20 minutes five days a week when I was trying to improve my run time in my pre-Crossfit days. It was an idea from a boxer/boxing coach/SF stud I know. I got my 12-minute mile down to a 7-minute mile this way.

Funny...I probably would of added some 400meter intervals thrown in (aka 1:30min of sprinting)...but just goes to show....they all get results....

Yael Grauer
04-19-2007, 06:56 AM
Hey Yael, how long did it take for that GREAT improvement? And what effect on body comp did it have?

I think it took like five months or so. And it definitely improved my body comp, but I don't know by how much because all the methods I've used to try to figure it out have been inaccurate.

Mike Moore
04-20-2007, 12:08 PM
I did 15 seconds of sprinting and 45 seconds of rest on a treadmill for 20 minutes five days a week when I was trying to improve my run time in my pre-Crossfit days. It was an idea from a boxer/boxing coach/SF stud I know. I got my 12-minute mile down to a 7-minute mile this way.

Makes sense, although I'm suprised since some boxing coaches are still "old school", i.e. conditioning consists of long slow running. I think this thinking was based on the concept that since a fight was fifteen 3 minute rounds, a fighter should run at a constant pace for 45 minutes. The misconception lies in the fact that the action in a fight is not constant. I train a number of wrestlers (hs 6 min match, college 7 min match) and studies have shown that intense action of 15-25 seconds is usually interupted by 10-30 seconds of "less intense" activity.

Jamila Bey
04-20-2007, 07:26 PM
So I tried the 15 work 45 rest on the elliptical trainer... (I'm not running in the gym so I can save myself for football.)

I decided to do no fewer than 230 strides per minute during the 15 secs and recover at whatever my legs felt like. Usually about 110-125 spm. I did it at level 10 of 20.

At interval #7 I had a stitch in my side and my heart was straining to get out of my chest! Sweat was flying off me and I was offending the people next to me with my profanity.

LOVED IT!!!!

This is my new routine! I think I'll do this every other day for 20 minutes to get my run speed up and get my belly flat.

Man I love this board.

David Wood
04-21-2007, 06:54 AM
Jamila, wow! Turnover of 230 / minute is fast!

I do my 1 minute on / 1 minute off on the elliptical fairly often . . . for that, I also crank the elevation up to maximum (20) and resistance about 15, but at those settings, I can't keep the turnover above 160. Recovery is at about 120.

With 15 on / 45 off, I wouldn't try to change the elevation . . . it takes about 15 seconds to adjust from 10 to 20. I'll try it like yours. (Doubt I can keep that pace, though).


Reading this makes me think I understand the difference between High Intensity (Anaerobic) and High Intensity (Aerobic). Clearly, the 1 minute on / 1 minute off intervals I've been doing would qualify more as an example of the "aerobic" version . . . let me try 15/45 and I'll let you know.

Mike ODonnell
04-21-2007, 07:45 AM
With 15 on / 45 off,

That reminds me of the old workout of sprint the on sideline the length of a football field...walk the endzone across....sprint the other sideline...etc.....those suck...

Yael Grauer
04-21-2007, 07:55 AM
Nice Jamila! I did this on the elliptical for a while too when I went to a gym that had no track. I tried to do it on the treadmill but I am uncoordinated and couldn't go from sprinting to putting my feet on the side without falling over.

What I did when I got better at it was made the intervals longer... 30 seconds of balls to the wall sprinting with 90 seconds of rest.

Chris Forbis
04-21-2007, 08:02 AM
When I'm in shape, one of my favorite track workouts is 10 100m sprints, each one on the minute. Works out really close to 15/45. When it's cold out, I'll stay on the basketball court and do 1/2 court back, full court back on each one (about the same total time as the 100m). Not as much emphasis on reaching and maintaining top speed, but accelerating out of those direction reversals is hard.

I'm not in shape right now, so I'm going to have to work my way up to doing 10 100m sprints starting every other minute. Once I can do that, I'll whittle the rest interval down.

Robb Wolf
04-22-2007, 04:54 PM
Chris-
Are you still competing in Track meets? You sent me a link to the geezer meets...I need to track that down again.

Chris Forbis
04-22-2007, 07:17 PM
You must be thinking of someone else... unless there is a Chris Forbis imposter out there.

David Wood
04-23-2007, 03:21 PM
When I'm in shape, one of my favorite track workouts is 10 100m sprints, each one on the minute. Works out really close to 15/45. When it's cold out, I'll stay on the basketball court and do 1/2 court back, full court back on each one (about the same total time as the 100m). Not as much emphasis on reaching and maintaining top speed, but accelerating out of those direction reversals is hard.

I'm not in shape right now, so I'm going to have to work my way up to doing 10 100m sprints starting every other minute. Once I can do that, I'll whittle the rest interval down.


Hmm. This is interesting. Did the 15/45 thing today (for 20 minutes) on the elliptical. Elevation cranked to about 18 (pretty steep, almost a stairstepper). Turnover during the 15 "on" was about 180 (maybe 190 occasionally); about 120 during the 45 "off". I cranked the resistance up for the "on" periods (that's electronic, changes more or less instantly) and back down for the "off'. Didn't change elevation.

Heart rate went way up (168 (that's high for me, I'm an old man)) during the "on" and wasn't coming down much during the "off" (maybe to 155, at best). But . . . I never felt out of breath . . . didn't seem like I was actually hurting for air. Felt like it wasn't long enough to induce actual oxygen debt. I'm wondering what the conditioning impact is if I'm not breathing all that hard.

This is in contrast to the basketball version of what Chris describes above . . . except I usually do them as:

-- 1/4 and back (free throw line), 1/2 court and back, 3/4, full court
-- do a "sprawl" at every change of direction (face down at one end, on my back at the other)
-- do that twice for one bout; whole thing takes about 3 (?) minutes


These leave me absolutely sucking air and feeling like I'm gonna die.

If I do 3 of these "bouts" (2 minutes rest) it's a hell of workout. The third one will usually take 4 minutes and is a major test of will.

Robb Wolf
04-23-2007, 05:18 PM
You must be thinking of someone else... unless there is a Chris Forbis imposter out there.
Damn...I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue!

Steve Shafley
04-23-2007, 07:27 PM
There are specific situations where complete recovery is recommended over incomplete recovery.

I think if you are interested in creating the most metabolic disturbance, for the purpose of conditioning or fat loss, then you have to limit recovery times, and also if the sports you compete at require you to get some then get some more with limited rest (most field sports)

AFTERBURN! TURBULANCE! GET SOME, GO AGAIN!

Complete recovery: Strength and power work...we've talked about the power bias before and also lactic acid and fiber type expression.

Mike Moore
04-23-2007, 07:50 PM
Hmm. This is interesting. Did the 15/45 thing today (for 20 minutes) on the elliptical. Elevation cranked to about 18 (pretty steep, almost a stairstepper). Turnover during the 15 "on" was about 180 (maybe 190 occasionally); about 120 during the 45 "off". I cranked the resistance up for the "on" periods (that's electronic, changes more or less instantly) and back down for the "off'. Didn't change elevation.

Heart rate went way up (168 (that's high for me, I'm an old man)) during the "on" and wasn't coming down much during the "off" (maybe to 155, at best). But . . . I never felt out of breath . . . didn't seem like I was actually hurting for air. Felt like it wasn't long enough to induce actual oxygen debt. I'm wondering what the conditioning impact is if I'm not breathing all that hard.

This is in contrast to the basketball version of what Chris describes above . . . except I usually do them as:

-- 1/4 and back (free throw line), 1/2 court and back, 3/4, full court
-- do a "sprawl" at every change of direction (face down at one end, on my back at the other)
-- do that twice for one bout; whole thing takes about 3 (?) minutes


These leave me absolutely sucking air and feeling like I'm gonna die.

If I do 3 of these "bouts" (2 minutes rest) it's a hell of workout. The third one will usually take 4 minutes and is a major test of will.

David - On the ultra short intervals it's important that when each work interval starts you ramp up to max level asap. When I do these on treadmill, I never change the speed. I leave it on the max speed for me and jump on and off (a little tricky at first depending on your setup). You may also need to decrease your rest time (I would suggest using 30 sec rest if your work time is 15 seconds and then adjust from there), but for these particular types of intervals don't use a work time greater than 15 seconds. Let me know how it works. The advantage of this type of interval is chiefly for those you don't want form to deteriorate due to local fatigue. Since there are local factors that should be trained (depending on your goals), but are not taxed using this method, I would also employ other types of interval training as well.

If you have never used complexes for either fat loss or conditioning, thses are an excellent choice as well (but only for those who enjoy a bit of suffering!).

David Wood
04-23-2007, 08:21 PM
Mike: I agree that the elliptical doesn't allow a really quick transition back to max effort. In fact, I really worked these as 20/40 (not 15/45 as described) partly to account for the fact that the first 5 seconds are "ramping up".

Not sure I'm coordinated enough to do the treadmill thing if it's moving fast. My gym has good treadmills, nice broad platforms on either side, but I don't think I could jump on at high speed (multiple times) without eventually doing face plant. I could just do the fieldwork (as Chris suggests), or laps around the gym (that would be about 15 seconds).

I've done CF for years, so I've done some complexes (at least in that style). Not doing much of that right now due to an f'd-up shoulder (surgery in about 3 weeks); almost any form of work with the shoulder (including pushups, pullups, presses, or cleans) causes pain right now.

I can pretty much only do GHD stuff and leg work (Tabata FS with 65 pounds, for 3 sets, anyone?) By this time next year, I hope to be blasting away again.

Ron Nelson
04-24-2007, 10:14 AM
The protocol that has worked best for me, comfort and performance wise, has been the 30 sec. on/1 min. off. I can do this on a bike or elliptical or even a treadmill (although I hate the ramp up). My favorite is doing this whilst running stadiums. You get waaay more bang for your buck running up 30 rows in a stadium, especially when your kids are making fun of you and asking what's taking you so long.

I can't bring myself to do that on a C2. Hurts the back.

I also like the Shugart strategy for HIIT: run the straits, walk the curves. Do that for 20 min and your life takes on a new meaning.

Yael Grauer
04-24-2007, 03:13 PM
I just remembered that what I was originally supposed to do was to sprint say 100m and then walk or jog back 20 times...then to increase to 150m or so.