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Yael Grauer
10-14-2006, 09:35 PM
Okay, so I'll start by admitting that I only ever got through one of the five zillion Zone books, not including the inflammation book. BUT I've been looking at articles by Dr. Philip Incao, and he thinks that inflammation can actually be a good thing because it drives out infection by detoxing and burning old cells, which have to be cleaned up so the body can rebuild itself. I'm guessing he's talking about temporary periods of inflammation and not a chronic, consistent low level of inflammation.

I also attended a lecture by naturopath about pain medication and treating inflammatory states, and he said that inflammation is absolutely necessary in healing. He cautioned against inhibiting inflammatory response, and actually said that doing so could lead to cardiovascular inflammation (like with the Vioxx recall). He was specifically opposed to aspirin because it inhibits cox 1 (which is involved in membrane repair and immune function) but even discouraged people from using other OTC meds that inibited cox 2 and 3 because he said inflammation was necessary. (Instead he recommended hydrotherapy and things like galangal root, nattokinaise, zinc undecylenate, etc.) But I thought inflammation was the bad guy that we're trying to fight off by getting Omega3's, icing injuries to numbness, etc. Isn't that why people limit nightshades and take Wobenzym? So now I'm all confused again! I was hoping Robb or Greg could wave their magic wands and get it to all make sense. :)

Greg Everett
10-15-2006, 10:52 AM
Yes, local inflammation at the site of injury is a necessary step in the healing process. When we talk about inflammation, we're referring more to chronic systemic inflammation.

I'm sure Robb can expand greatly on that.

Yael Grauer
10-16-2006, 09:15 AM
Fair enough but Incao was talking about systemic inflammation. In fact he said that suppressing it (and gave some causes for this, including vaccines actually) is what led to this low-grade chronic inflammation that is always there.

Steve Shafley
10-16-2006, 01:16 PM
I reviewed the literature on vaccines a few years ago, and nothing I read would convince me that it'd be better to go back to the days of widespread poxes and plagues.

Yael Grauer
10-16-2006, 01:54 PM
It'd be nice if they'd take the thimerosol and things out of them, and if I had kids and decided to get them vaccinated, I'd opt for individual doses that are not administered on the same day. In Japan it's actually illegal to administer MMR because there are so many side effects. So they'd do measles on one day, mumps on another day, etc.

A friend of mine who is a chiropractor has done a lot of research on this and decided not to vaccinate his kids because he feels that they are still trying to define self from non-self immunologically (this is especially true for infants). He's also read research that indicates that before the polio vaccine came out, cases were on the decline and the disease was limiting itself...and of course isn't around anymore. Why immunize against something that is gone?

Again I'm not opposed to vaccines, I got a whole bunch of 'em before I went to Central America. I'm just for informed consent. What did your research indicate?

Robb Wolf
10-16-2006, 05:49 PM
Yael-
EVERY avenue of research is looking at inflammation as an underlying agent in diseases as far reaching as atherosclerosis to alzheimers. Is some degree of inflammation necessary for normal operations? Undoubtedly, but again what is the level of inflammation we are SUPPOSED to have for various states conditions. Sadi another way, what is the normal default mode for our species (youve heard this before!!) and are these Doc's using this as a base line? Tied to that what are they recomending for macronutrients, fatty acid ratios, sleep and stress? These are the heavy hitters with inflammation. When some is handwringing about vaccination they are still hooked on donuts or vegan hockey pucks...misplaced concerns IMO.

On the vaccine note: informed consent yes. Cleaner products, yes. Still, some are goign to have problems. It's tragic but it's the price we pay for overall hygene and health. Any medical intervention can be problematic. A few doxen phenumothoraxes occur due to acupuncture each year. Nothign is without risk.

Steve-
Good to see you!!!

Scott Kustes
10-16-2006, 06:47 PM
Robb, what the heck is a phenumothorax?

Yael, aren't the vaccines required for children to attend school?

Yael Grauer
10-16-2006, 07:40 PM
Scott--yes, but you can get around just about anything if you make friends with research librarians and/or have access to a law library.

Check this out, btw:
http://healthsentinel.com/graphs.php?id=14&event=graphs_print_list_item

Robb--gotcha. He wasn't promoting vegan hockey pucks (as much as I can tell, though I did see the r-word), just limiting the use of antibiotics, strengthening the immune system, some stuff on vaccines, fermented food, etc. It all makes sense since the entrance of the microbe doesn't trigger the illness in someone with a healthy immune system, but he compared illnesses with inflammation to just having a little bit of dust in your house for a long time and then one day turning the whole house upside down to clean it out. I don't know. (If anyone has as much time on their hands as I do the site is http://www.philipincao.com/)

I'm betting less people die because of acupuncturists than do from doctors, a conservative estimate of iatrogenic deaths is 250,000 and the higher estimate is 750,000... (This includes drugs, sometimes the wrong ones and sometimes the "right" ones, surgery and nosocomial infections.)

It's the third leading cause of death in this continent. Paul Bergner posited the question of whether modern medicine actually kills more people than it saves, since whenever there are doctor strikes the mortality rate falls and then rises again when the strike is over... and this has happened in Canada, Holland and Israel as well as North and South America.

http://naimh.com/files/doctor-strikes.pdf (make sure to read the responses as well)