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Allen Yeh
04-19-2007, 05:47 AM
I'm sure most of you are aware I loathe running with a passion. I'd rather do almost anything than go running.

I'm putting in my packet for becoming an Officer in the Army and I was doing some research.

Basic Officer Leadership Course Phase II is conducted at one of the infantry schools, either Fort Benning, GA or Fort Sill, OK. On the pages I saw a few things saying "Be able to run 5 miles easily" So far into my research I saw nothing that I was worried about form the classwork to the field stuff but now I'm a bit worried.

To be honest I'm not even sure when the last time I ran 5 miles was? The 5K's that pop up randomly on the Crossfit WOD's would have been the longest distance I've ran in a long long time. I'm looking around and there is not time given for the easy 5 mile run, but I'm assuming you're running along with the the school Cadre. It's been my experience that those guys are running machines. So I'd be guessing a 7 minute/mile pace?

As for duration of time to prepare? I'm not sure it's definitley going to be at least 4 months, probably longer.

I was originally going to post something up about having you guys all contribute some type of program like what Shaf did but now I know I need a "able to run 5 miles easily program" along with other training stuff to keep me sane.

Anyone with ideas/experience would be awesome because right now I just have this "oh crap!" feeling.

Mike ODonnell
04-19-2007, 05:57 AM
If you can run 3 miles.....you can run 5.....you get in the zone and you will be fine.....not saying it wont suck but you can do it.....plus add the adrenaline factor doing it for time and with a group....it will go by fast as 3 miles by myself seems like an eternity but put me in a Tri/AR race for 6 miles and I feel like it flew by.....

R. Alan Hester
04-19-2007, 06:06 AM
So I'd be guessing a 7 minute/mile pace?

Ranger school's standard on the 5 mile run is 8 minute miles, though it fluctuates between 7:15 and 8:30. So I would practice for the "surges" that cadre often pull to F.ck with you. I have had friends that trained for a steady 40 min 5 mile, only to be burned by the surges and get droped from the course.

Fartleck runs and intervals is all I would mess with--1 of each per week. Maybe one 5 mile run for a psycological boost so you know you can do it. But MOD is correct if you can smoke a 3 miler, then the fear of falling out of the run will push you the rest of the way.

James Evans
04-19-2007, 06:51 AM
Alan,

I'll put something together for you.

Garrett Smith
04-19-2007, 08:34 AM
Hill sprints, intervals, some longer distance fartlek-ing, and the rare (every 2 weeks maybe) LSD run.

Heck, breaking up a longer run with calisthenics will get the job done.

Yael posted in another thread about short sprint intervals on a treadmill helping get her times way down...

Josh Whiting
04-19-2007, 10:30 AM
I know this may go against what many people think, but I'll go ahead anyway. You will need to get a certain amount of distance in your legs, and do some LSD. Even if you buy into the intervals are better thing (which I do) you simply need to put in the miles to condition you lower extremities to the pounding you legs will receive. This is especially true when you add boots and weight to the equation and shin splints, stress fractures and blisters will become even more of a problem.

Rick Deckart
04-19-2007, 10:34 AM
Try to get a copy of Jack Daniels (sic) Running formula, arguably the best book on long distance running availabe (IMO it is). He gives you lot's of ideas and plenty of battle proven advice. You do not need to follow one of the programs but follow his guidelines and success if more or less inevitable. Keep in mind he is a running coach and as such probably not the best source if your interested in overall strength/conditioning work.

The ciruits I posted some time ago helped me big time to kick-start running when I was into long distances running.

Dave Van Skike
04-19-2007, 11:40 AM
I woudl bet you would benefit from really focusing on running technique drills to improve your form~ala Pose method or Chi Running or whatever the buzz method of the day is for learning efficient running.

Cardio fitness is not going to be your issue, going into lactic acid hell is probabably something you are used to...you just need to be able to run efficiently to exploit your abilities.

You already know this but.....Form then Strength/Speed then Strength Endurance then Endurance.

Josh Whiting
04-19-2007, 12:00 PM
I think you cardio fitness may be an issue. I would, if I were you, incorporate some more traditional LSD training into you routine, along with some tempo and interval runs. Also if you have not conditioned your body to covering distance you will be much more likely to break.

POSE etc is good, however is not enough on it's own and will not help in boots and kit anyway.

As far as strength goes your probably near enough that level anyway.

I would do this:

Day One: Tempo Run
Day Two: Metcon and or Strength
Day Three: Intervals/Hill Reps
Day Four: Metcon and or Strength
Day five:LSD
Weekend off

I wouldn't go too mental with LB/TB ME work during your prep for this.

Chris Goodrich
04-19-2007, 04:35 PM
I didn't have to do BOLC but I'm guessing they're looking for about an 8:00 min/mile pace while in formation, probably singing cadence. 7:00 min/miles would probably put you in the top 15% of your peers. In my experience, crossfit style METCON transfers much better to battlefield tasks than distance running, so I wouldn't sweat the running too much unless you are really slow (like 9+min/mile). If you're already doing alot of METCON, I wouldn't add more than 1 day a week of distance running. I'd focus mostly on fartlek and or intervals with the occaisional steady long run to get used to holding a pace for distance. Alot of it is just mental, learning to let your mind "go to your happy place" while your body pounds out the miles.

Edit; What Branch are you going into? If its infantry you might want to do a little more running than I suggested above to prep for Ranger.

Allen Yeh
04-20-2007, 04:05 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions thus far:

To give you an idea of where my running ability is at:

50m- ~8 sec
100m - ~15 sec
400m - 1:25-1:30
1 mile - 7-7:30 but for me that's pushing it, I have done faster in the past but going sub 7 in the past usually triggers an asthma attack. (that was a while ago though so I'm not sure if it still does that).
2 miles - 14:30-15:00
5k - 28:00-29:00

So I'm not the fastest, and once my distance starts to go up my pace starts to increase also. I also don't have a huge background in running meaning I was a slow fat child and didn't do any sports! Russ Greene and I talked about this on how people who have already put the roadwork in the past will have an easier time maintaining their speed without running a lot. Since I have not much of a background other than when I first enlisted in 2003 and the occasional 2 mile PT test.

What else can I focus on while trying to bring my running pace/capability up in the next 4+ months? I don't want to halt lifting and go to straight metcon's and running. I know Greg advocates working on one thing at a time, i.e. dropping metcons to work on strength. So does it work the other way around also? Drop all strength work and focus primarily on met-cons and running and maybe some rowing?

BW right now is 183, BF is around 10%, IF'ing with calories at maintenance level.

My sorta max numbers:
Lifts
Deadlift - 360 (Missed 380, but I think I could have gotten 370)
high bar squat - 275
low bar squat - 315
front squat - 265
overhead squat - 175
power snatch - 135 x 2 (technique needs work, having a problem dropping into the hole)
clean - 195 x 1
bench press - 250 x 1
overhead press - 165 x 1
push press - 170 x 4
bent over rows - 235 x 4

Bodyweight stuff:
Dips - BW x 30+
ring dips - BW x 17
pullups - 12 dead hang, 15 kipping
pushups - 35+
ring pushups - 10

Row - 500m - PR of 1:31
Row - 2000m - PR of 7:31

Conditioning - I've been better than now, pretty much coming off a strength kick for the last 6 months.

Allen Yeh
04-20-2007, 04:24 AM
I didn't have to do BOLC but I'm guessing they're looking for about an 8:00 min/mile pace while in formation, probably singing cadence. 7:00 min/miles would probably put you in the top 15% of your peers. In my experience, crossfit style METCON transfers much better to battlefield tasks than distance running, so I wouldn't sweat the running too much unless you are really slow (like 9+min/mile). If you're already doing alot of METCON, I wouldn't add more than 1 day a week of distance running. I'd focus mostly on fartlek and or intervals with the occaisional steady long run to get used to holding a pace for distance. Alot of it is just mental, learning to let your mind "go to your happy place" while your body pounds out the miles.

Edit; What Branch are you going into? If its infantry you might want to do a little more running than I suggested above to prep for Ranger.

Yes, I forgot to add, these are most likely company runs which makes the accordion/yo-yo effect a bitch. That's how I sprained my ankle in BCT, I was so busy trying not to run into the guy in front of me I missed the gigantic pothole slightly to my right (ankle blew up to grapefruit size).

I can do a 7:00 mile....once! It's the stringing them together that worries me, so I guess being able to run a 35 minute/5 miles should be my long term goal. That running happy place has thus far eluded me, I guess I have to do some attitude adjustment fine tuning or something, I always hear from runners about the runners high or just getting into a zone which I don't feel like I've ever achieved even in BCT/AIT. To be honest a lot of the times I'm just thinking "ok, only X meters left."

I'm an MP now, so my first choice is MP and 2nd choice is Signal. BOLC II is 7 weeks at either Benning or Sill, and its 75% in the field, it's suppose to make officers more Army centric than branch centric, like what they are doing for the NCOA's i.e. changing PLDC to WLC. I'm all for that part, just need to get my running up to par so I'm not lagging behind.

Alan,

I'll put something together for you.

Thanks James, I appreciate that.


The ciruits I posted some time ago helped me big time to kick-start running when I was into long distances running.

Where did you post these, your log? You don't mean that 400 x 100m thing right?

I woudl bet you would benefit from really focusing on running technique drills to improve your form~ala Pose method or Chi Running or whatever the buzz method of the day is for learning efficient running.


I've already tried to transition to more effecient running, I just need to be able to keep it up over the long haul because after a mile or so my old habits still creep in there. Pre-2005 running caused really bad shin splints...etc and a lot of the Crossfit people were recommending Pose method and that has made a huge difference in terms of injury prevention and I no longer wear my motion-control/stability shoes that weighed nearly a pound each. I think that running more effeciently and not wearing those kinds of shoes has actually started to bring my arch back since I had very flat feet and they are still flat but not as much now.



I would do this:

Day One: Tempo Run
Day Two: Metcon and or Strength
Day Three: Intervals/Hill Reps
Day Four: Metcon and or Strength
Day five:LSD
Weekend off

I wouldn't go too mental with LB/TB ME work during your prep for this.

Tempo run? I've heard the term before but not quite sure what's involved?

Mike ODonnell
04-20-2007, 07:53 AM
To build up speed, you need to practice speed....a friend of mine who is ex Canada Pro-Tri would take me out and do repeats of 400s, 800s, and miles....just break them up in different days. I agree one day should be your long distance day...and work up to the 5 miles....week one 3 miles, week 2 3.5 miles....etc...etc....making sure your tempo/time is where you want it to be. Buy a good stop watch and use a track if you can to know lap times...or have mile markers on your run.

Josh Whiting
04-20-2007, 08:10 AM
I'm really talking about a tempo run in the distance running sense. A hard, but not all out, effort. You can do this for time or distance. I suppose if you think about the fastest you can cover a distance you should aim for about 80% of that. You should be working hard and but able to stay relaxed(ish) and concentrate on good running form. I wouldn't go for more than 30 minutes.

You could always replace this with longer repeats say from a mile upwards.

The concertina effect is a bitch, but easily remedied by getting to the front and staying there!

I'm sure you will be able to become a strong runner by the time you get there.

Chris Goodrich
04-20-2007, 01:57 PM
Based on your stats I wouldn't be worried about passing BOLC. I saw plenty of guys with slower runs pass IOBC. You're probably about mid-pack of new officers. The only thing that would concern me is the asthma attacks you mentioned. In that environment, falling out of a formation run is generally percieved as a sign of lack of motivation unless there is an obvious injury (i.e. bone protruding through skin). Even a legit asthma attack might be misinterpreted by your TAC. I don't know much about asthma, but I'd make sure you have an inhaler and talk to your cadre when you arrive.
As far as training plans, I think you could make significant progress by using METCONs with a sprint focus and doing one long run per week. This would allow you to at least maintain your strength if not continue to improve. If you really want to excel at the running events, you will need a more running centric program, but this will hurt your strength more. In my experience, crossfit has prepared me much better for combat than endurance running (I was up to 20-30 miles a week pre-CF). The Army is slowly learning this as well, but there are still a lot of leaders out there who think push-ups, sit-ups, and distance running are the pinnacle of fitness training. Depending on your personal goals it may be worth focusing on running in the short term until you are able to max the APFT, but for the long term I would highly recommend using crossfit-style workouts for your METCON instead of distance running.

Motion MacIvor
04-20-2007, 04:23 PM
Allen,
I hate running too. I've tried to like it but it's no use. The one piece of advice that everybody forgot is that you're legs will get destroyed if you just start running without a bit of build up. I suggest that you start with baby steps. Every day for the about two weeks start your say with ultra easy intervals of 1 minute jogging followed by 1 minute of fast walking repeat 10 times. reduce your walking time and increase your run time systematicaly until you can jog for twenty minutes straight. Then start a more serious program. Jumping into quick will just result in injury. I know it sucks to go so slow but it's pretty much necesary.
hope that helps

Rick Deckart
04-21-2007, 05:31 AM
Allen, I talked about this circuit:

http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=504

But keep in mind you should be at least an okay runner and should have an idea what your 5k pace it. It is also not an replacement to running but a nifty way to increase the lactate threshold which is one of the big factors in long distance running. One does this for a short time and switches to more running based training afterwards, like interval work, hill running etc.

It does help but is brutal if done honestly. Therefore it may be better if you build some solid easy milage as a foundation first.

Jay L Swan
04-21-2007, 07:24 AM
As far as strength goes your probably near enough that level anyway.

I would do this:

Day One: Tempo Run
Day Two: Metcon and or Strength
Day Three: Intervals/Hill Reps
Day Four: Metcon and or Strength
Day five:LSD
Weekend off

I wouldn't go too mental with LB/TB ME work during your prep for this.

I think this is a great program to improve running speed in a relatively short time. It's not going to kill you to run three days a week for a while, regardless of what Art DeVany says. It is really important to get some miles in to condition your feet, knees, and hips against the repetitive stress of running, if you're going to be doing it regularly in your training course.

Allen Yeh
04-22-2007, 07:09 AM
Allen,
I hate running too. I've tried to like it but it's no use. The one piece of advice that everybody forgot is that you're legs will get destroyed if you just start running without a bit of build up. I suggest that you start with baby steps. Every day for the about two weeks start your say with ultra easy intervals of 1 minute jogging followed by 1 minute of fast walking repeat 10 times. reduce your walking time and increase your run time systematicaly until you can jog for twenty minutes straight. Then start a more serious program. Jumping into quick will just result in injury. I know it sucks to go so slow but it's pretty much necesary.
hope that helps

Thanks Motion I had thought about this and wondered if doing the program that James outlined was too aggresive a jump start if for the few months before this I was lucky to even run once a week.

Allen Yeh
04-22-2007, 07:11 AM
Allen, I talked about this circuit:

http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=504

But keep in mind you should be at least an okay runner and should have an idea what your 5k pace it. It is also not an replacement to running but a nifty way to increase the lactate threshold which is one of the big factors in long distance running. One does this for a short time and switches to more running based training afterwards, like interval work, hill running etc.

It does help but is brutal if done honestly. Therefore it may be better if you build some solid easy milage as a foundation first.

Peter,

Ok I remember that now, that does seem pretty brutal I will do that after I finish up with what James outlined in the other thread. Thanks for reposting the link.

Allen Yeh
04-22-2007, 07:25 AM
Are there any suggestions for what they think would be best for maintaining strength with all this running.

I am planning on doing what James outlined in the other thread in terms of running 3 times a week.

I was thinking of doing 1 non running based metcon (perhaps even more upper body type metcon to let my legs recover?).

What does everyone think of the routine outline in this link:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1475469

It seems to be a pretty solid routine that covers the bases? What do you guys think?

Motion MacIvor
04-22-2007, 10:26 AM
I really like that program. So simple and so easy to integrate.

Doing the met con workout to "rest" you legs might be a good idea as you're building up your running volume but if running is your weakness then you should focus on running. In the begining you might want to substitute metcons for running but try to phase them out as you adapt to increase of running workouts.

I think one day of full body strength for maintainance combined with the running progam should get you where you want to go. I prefer the strength option to the metcon because it will give your energy systems a chance to relax while working on your goals of improving your running while maintaining strength.

Dont worry about losing to much strength. If you loose a bit of muscle mass your relative strength should go up anyway.