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Dave Van Skike
04-22-2007, 12:08 PM
Nice snippet on persistence hunting on Ross's blog.

http://www.rosstraining.com/blog/

R. Alan Hester
04-22-2007, 12:25 PM
From an evolutionary fitness perspective, how would one mimic that, if one was so inclined? In the video, we see our clothed H&G friends walking, sprinting, and jogging:eek: . I assume they carried or drug that big sucker back from where they came, also. Did they chow down after they rubbed its saliva on their tired legs (IF)? So, would one sprint, walk, and sled drag/farmer carry in order to mimic our roots?

Troy Archie
04-22-2007, 12:30 PM
That's awesomeness.

Running on 2 feet over long distances if more efficient than running on 4.

I was not aware of that. Gareth were you aware of that?

Dave Van Skike
04-22-2007, 02:23 PM
Real eye opener. Puts the whole run/jog/sprint thing into perspective. It's all part of the continuum of movement. sprint, walk jog, sprint, creep, freeze, run, jog, sprint........

Calls into question the armchair evolutionary biologists and their concept of some hugely robustly muscled hominid subduing his environs in a Hobbsian struggle of gene expression.

R. Alan Hester
04-22-2007, 02:47 PM
Calls into question the armchair evolutionary biologists and their concept of some hugely robustly muscled hominid subduing his environs in a Hobbsian struggle of gene expression.

Good point. I believe it was Devany (armchair evolutionary biologist?)that said our Ancestors would have had a BMR double ours and been well muscled persons. It seems the body always adapts to its environment, so if we are all out of Africa, then do these guys represent our past? Maybe I am extrapolating too much from the video clip.

Garrett Smith
04-22-2007, 04:51 PM
Awesome, awesome clip.

Which Foot Locker can I get his shoes at, so I can run like that? :-)

Robert Allison
04-22-2007, 04:55 PM
I'm not an evolutionary biologist, armchair or otherwise, but I do believe that fossil remains indicate that some of our ancestors were almost certainly more heavily muscled than our hunter friends in the video. So I am not sure what generalities, if any, we can take away from this video regarding size and body mass in hunter-gatherers from our past

In any case, very impressive feat. But what was going on with that unusual arm position, running with his palm open, facing up?

I was not aware of that. Gareth were you aware of that?

Gareth is from the BBC's The Office... I don't believe he posts here. Garrett Smith, however, does. See above! JK! :)

Robb Wolf
04-22-2007, 05:00 PM
Super Cool!

Troy Archie
04-22-2007, 05:28 PM
Gareth is from the BBC's The Office... I don't believe he posts here. Garrett Smith, however, does. See above! JK! :)

The office, what's the office? It's all Wayne's World baby.

Garrett Smith
04-22-2007, 07:11 PM
I must say, I have never done any studying on the efficiency of 4-leg running versus 2.

Were they all using the POSE Method? :-)

Robert Allison
04-22-2007, 07:15 PM
The office, what's the office? It's all Wayne's World baby.

Garth Algar (http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/3657/danapics/garth2.jpg)
;)

Robert Allison
04-22-2007, 07:33 PM
Were they all using the POSE Method? :-)

Nah... ChiRunning (http://www.chirunning.com/shop/home.php)

Motion MacIvor
04-22-2007, 08:13 PM
Mark one down for the skinny guys!
That was cool...
Sofa King cool!

Steve Shafley
04-23-2007, 05:25 AM
Forencich's writings on running, the mosaic environment, and desert vs. jungle outlooks are worthwhile looking up.

Robert Allison
04-23-2007, 05:52 AM
Forencich's writings on running, the mosaic environment, and desert vs. jungle outlooks are worthwhile looking up.

Yeah, his stuff is good... I have both of his books.

Back issues of his newsletter can be found here (http://www.goanimal.com/publications/publications.html)

Neal Winkler
04-23-2007, 08:27 AM
I wouldn't mind looking for some data comparing bone geometry of our ancestors with modern day athletes from different sports to see what sport best mimics ancestral patterns. When schools out for the summer I'm going to make that my project.

R. Alan Hester
04-23-2007, 08:39 AM
I wouldn't mind looking for some data comparing bone geometry of our ancestors with modern day athletes from different sports to see what sport best mimics ancestral patterns. When schools out for the summer I'm going to make that my project.

That is a good idea. I cannot wait to read the results. Please keep us posted.

Alan

Robb Wolf
04-23-2007, 05:43 PM
A few things rattled in my head after watching that video.

Robert Lee lived with the Kung for years and noted how healthy they are but they are quite small. He noted that Kung who had left the village scene at an early age and made it to the city often grew taller than their relatives back home. Lee attributed this to the very harsh environment the Kung inhabit and how smaller builds require less total calories.

That spear throw, although close was scary accurate. Right above the shoulder straight in the lung and likely the heart. DAMN.

The implications for training to emulate the demands of our ancestors is interesting. Run in a variety of ways, under a variety of conditions. Throw things. Carry things.

Dave Van Skike
04-23-2007, 07:08 PM
I'm not an evolutionary biologist, armchair or otherwise, but I do believe that fossil remains indicate that some of our ancestors were almost certainly more heavily muscled than our hunter friends in the video. So I am not sure what generalities, if any, we can take away from this video regarding size and body mass in hunter-gatherers from our past

I would expect as much variability in frame size in pre-paleo folks as there is in the current crop of hominids based on climate as much as anything.

My thinking was that muscles are calorically expensive, being big (fat or meaty) is rarely a positive when you are paying(hunting) your own food.

Garrett Smith
04-23-2007, 07:18 PM
I agree with Dave. Being big is likely more beneficial when competing against members of the same species, not so much when hunting over long distances.

That was quite a spear throw.

As for the hand out while running, I think that's a part of their tracking mechanisms, something to help with consciously monitoring the wind or terrain, maybe?

Robert Allison
04-23-2007, 08:12 PM
I would expect as much variability in frame size in pre-paleo folks as there is in the current crop of hominids based on climate as much as anything.

That's pretty much where I was going. When looking at contemporary hunter-gathers (when & where still extant), there are size variations, depending on environment and resource availability. The same is true when we look at the archeological record.

My thinking was that muscles are calorically expensive...

Good observation. One might make the case that how the muscles were used might justify the "expense," but, in any case, I tend to think it would be rare to find musculature comparable to that of a modern strength athlete.

Great conversation.

Neal Winkler
04-24-2007, 06:01 PM
Well, the little I've looked into it so far, I think the average HG from the upper paleolithic was about 5'9" and 156lbs. But I seen another study that showed extrapolation of body mass from the skeletons seems to be underestimated by about 9%.

Steve Liberati
04-24-2007, 06:06 PM
Impeccable timing (or mabe Art was inspired by our thread?)

http://www.arthurdevany.com/2007/04/humans_as_runne.html

Robb Wolf
04-25-2007, 06:56 AM
I would expect as much variability in frame size in pre-paleo folks as there is in the current crop of hominids based on climate as much as anything.

My thinking was that muscles are calorically expensive, being big (fat or meaty) is rarely a positive when you are paying(hunting) your own food.

Dave-
both devany and cordain have mentioned less variation in height among HG's, due most likely o similar food supply and thus similar phenotypic expression.

Robert Allison
04-25-2007, 07:17 AM
Dave-
both devany and cordain have mentioned less variation in height among HG's, due most likely o similar food supply and thus similar phenotypic expression.

Do DeVany and Cordain mention any variations in weight? Also, was the lack of variation in height derived from a study of current day H-Gs, or on evidence from the archeological record?

Just curious...

Dave Van Skike
04-25-2007, 10:53 AM
Interesting. I need to look back at the comparison of som of the earlier homnids like to robustus to see what the size differenfce is attributed to there.

The vany article is interesting in it's own way.

Robb Wolf
04-25-2007, 04:43 PM
Do DeVany and Cordain mention any variations in weight? Also, was the lack of variation in height derived from a study of current day H-Gs, or on evidence from the archeological record?

Just curious...

Robert-
Not sure on any of that...I will try to follow up but I've been buried of late...just going from memory!

James Evans
04-26-2007, 09:22 AM
This is an interesting suggestion but is ultimately hypothesis.

All you Creationist CrossFitters look away now.

I take this to mean that we evolved on to two legs for this reason. Correct me if I misunderstand.

There are many theories for why we are two legged (originally) none of which are fully proved. These include diverse ideas such as the move away from arboreal habitats (ie the motherf*ckin' jungle) left us more exposed to the sun and upright stance reduces this or another theory that our early ancestors where semi-marine in nature and being bipedal assisted them in foraging along the shore (quite contraversial that one).

Ultimately the suggestion is that tool manipulation came later.


Dr Mike Stroud's 'Survival of the Fittest' is a very good read on this subject and indeed on others (including endurance, rhabdo and nutrition).

Garrett Smith
04-26-2007, 09:38 AM
I get so tired of people saying that our bipedal design is inherently "flawed" and that's why we have back problems, etc.

It's people getting fat and lazy that's the problem.

And no, I don't believe the desire to "exercise" is natural. The need to exercise is a byproduct of our ability to create things that take away nearly all need for manual labors in our daily lives. Combine fat, lazy, and disjointed exercise approaches (ie. BBing and machine hamster-wheel cardio) and you've got a big human mess.

R. Alan Hester
04-26-2007, 10:51 AM
What do you think of these yahoos. I am sure you have seen this before, but it seems to fit into this conversation. maybe?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0308_060308_all_fours.html

Robb Wolf
04-26-2007, 11:38 AM
What do you think of these yahoos. I am sure you have seen this before, but it seems to fit into this conversation. maybe?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=379134&in_page_id=1770

Wow...that's...wow. That's as good as I can do!

Pierre Auge
04-26-2007, 03:20 PM
you do what you gotta do to get by good job I think...