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Dave Van Skike
04-30-2007, 03:29 PM
Ummm yeah. It's really lame but It got me thinking.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1551258

I recently have had good luck with partial movements, overloads etc. Got me thinking about eccentrics.

Observation. Heavy eccentrics (like overload movements and heavy partials) seem to really get the whole team of muscle units firing on the same target. Wonder if folks have had luck incorporating these sort of movements either for high strength moves (big squat, big pull, big press) or for strength endurance. I have read some good stuff from Ross Entamait on isometrics for speed. Seems like just another good tool to have around. It's the spice, not the steak of course.....

Gary John
04-30-2007, 07:50 PM
Nice to see him co-authoring at T-nation:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=2FEFDCD243108A89512ADB4B13 20FDEB.hydra?id=1551258

One of those articles where you kind of wait for the:

And?

Still, interesting first step. T-nation seems to be trying to clean up its act.

-Ross Hunt
04-30-2007, 08:13 PM
Ummm yeah. It's really lame but It got me thinking.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1551258

I recently have had good luck with partial movements, overloads etc. Got me thinking about eccentrics.
.

How have you incorporated them? How'd it go?

I have never seriously incorporated partials or overloads, myself, so I'm curious.

Dave Van Skike
04-30-2007, 09:47 PM
How have you incorporated them? How'd it go?

I have never seriously incorporated partials or overloads, myself, so I'm curious.


I'm on a heavy/light/medium I pulled straight out of Practical Programming.

Monday is a high intensity/relatively high volume day for squats, presses and dead lifts. At the suggestion of Peter Puetz, I started subbing in partial dead lifts on Monday. Current sorta max is 405 from the floor. So today I pulled 3 sets of 3 at 570 from the 6th pin, just above the knees. it seems to really help me focus on completely focused contraction. I also like to do walk outs and 1/4 squats with about 100 pounds over my max squat to help me warm up for a big squat.

Allen Yeh
05-01-2007, 04:22 AM
One of those articles where you kind of wait for the:

And?


Exactly what my thoughts were as I read the article....I thought there would be some tie together blurb after both authors had said their piece.

Steve Shafley
05-01-2007, 05:02 AM
Heavy eccentrics are one of those things...research says they rock, but almost nobody I know who's tried them have keep doing them in their training cycles.

Rick Deckart
05-01-2007, 05:04 AM
Owen Anderson wrote several articles about excentric training: in the context of long distance running as preemptive measure against soreness (which actually works extremely well) and for rehabilitation purposes, especially Achilles tendonitis. I still have these articles so if anybody is interested...

Derek Simonds
05-01-2007, 05:14 AM
I have a friend in MI who has been providing me moral support on squats and swears by over max walk outs. He wants me to do them to get used to the weight so I don,t freak out as the lb's increase.

Garrett Smith
05-01-2007, 06:05 AM
I think DD's taken a big hit in business with their overpriced KBs and is trying to expand the Party by getting out there more...they probably set up T-Nation as an "affiliate".

Seriously, Pavel took one study and said what they did (basically). That's his part of the article. If I held myself to that standard, even I could write an article a day...

Danny John
05-01-2007, 07:19 AM
The method works well, though. It might not be for everyone, but I tried this basic idea in 1991...I wish I would have had better advice (Pavel or Dick Smith) FIRST...and my squat went through the roof. I have an interview somewhere with Dick Smith and he is the one to turn me on to the idea that your nervous system gets tapped out doing these hyperloaded moves.

Later, Mike Rosenberg developed the "tap tester" for me and that was the first way I tried to test the nervous system. Short review: you can do light crappy reps in a lot of things and not affect the tap test. Maximal lifts quickly lead to a slower tap time. So...I inferred that heavy training is wonderful, but has to be used intelligently when doing a sport.

It's a concept that completely changed my approach to competition.

Robb Wolf
05-01-2007, 07:36 AM
Eccentrics are how most gymnastics skills are developed. Seems to work!

I used loads of partials, isometrics at sticking points and walk outs when I PL'ed. All good stuff.

Gary John
05-01-2007, 07:41 AM
For a double written article, you had to know most of what they were talking about before reading.

I love partials and real heavy. Can't throw the discus after doing them, cuz I slow down too much. Mix and match, not good before big comps.

I think this was a toe in the water thing. Somewhere in a deep hole is a huge hatchet.

Pierre Auge
05-01-2007, 08:32 AM
I feel like crap --- Here's my take basically fortifying Robb's statement mention eccentric training to a gymnast and they will basically laugh in your face saying "how else are you going to do it dumbass?"

I think the value with complex relative motor skills is greater than with gross external skills like the big lifts but that mainly conjecture on my part...

I'm basing that on my observations but as I said mostly conjecture at this point.

Mike ODonnell
05-01-2007, 08:47 AM
For sport specific stuff I would rather do "plyo" movements like squat jumps...you get plenty of eccentric work trying to decellerate your body plus decelleration/change of direction/acceleration is more what an athletic movement would require. Other than that....used negatives here and there in the past...more for adapting the CNS to a heavier weight than I can normally do concentrically....

Dave Van Skike
05-01-2007, 09:10 AM
So, If I am groking this, eccentrics=different than overloads movements. Both overloads and eccentrics are CNS intensive (that I get, did rack pulls early in the day yesterday and slept like a rock from 9-7, which for me is the gold standard of sleep). Both can be used to break through a tough patch but at some risk of burning out.

Steve Shafley
05-01-2007, 09:18 AM
There's a continuum

stability ----> mobility

So, it could look like:

squat supports --->short ROM movements---->full ROM movements

The eccentrics fall into that probalby after you acquire enough strength to handle some sort of short ROM movement.

There's a reason why powerlifters don't do much in the way of eccentric squatting. What do you think that is? In fact, most PLs do every little specific eccentric work. Unless you count bands...then you are talking dynamic and overspeed eccentrics.

If it worked well, and worked often, then you'd see it used much, much more.

Ron Nelson
05-01-2007, 10:08 AM
I can speak to the "fries the CNS" part of the practice. I did rack pulls backed with heavy push presses followed by box single-leg squats and weighted pull ups. All, except the push presses, could be considered "overload" or "partials," or even eccentric in a way.

Later in the day, as I'm coaching my softball team, I felt like crap. I thought it may be the IF, but I had purposely downed some choco milk to help with the heavy lifting, so I was OK from a glycogen standpoint. I think the heavy lifts/partials/eccentrics called for some big adaptations; thus, I was slow and lightheaded whilst hitting ground balls for infield and throwing batting practice.

Bottom line: Interesting. I'll probably mix them in every so often. I won't be doing them every week.

Dave Van Skike
05-01-2007, 11:55 AM
I hear that. What has helped me is that I'm really on a low dosage. I'm limited to three sessions a week, H/L/M and a couple of days of active rest. A day a week of overload seems to be fine.

-Ross Hunt
05-01-2007, 06:29 PM
I'm on a heavy/light/medium I pulled straight out of Practical Programming.

Monday is a high intensity/relatively high volume day for squats, presses and dead lifts. At the suggestion of Peter Puetz, I started subbing in partial dead lifts on Monday. Current sorta max is 405 from the floor. So today I pulled 3 sets of 3 at 570 from the 6th pin, just above the knees. it seems to really help me focus on completely focused contraction. I also like to do walk outs and 1/4 squats with about 100 pounds over my max squat to help me warm up for a big squat.

Right. Thanks. The only overload work I've done is jerk drives (jerk-technique quarter squats) to make jerks feel light. They did their job... but I don't have a hard time increasing my split jerk, so it's not a really good barometer of their effectiveness.