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Nikki Young
05-05-2007, 04:15 PM
Hey!

I'm curious about idodine and it's roll with thyroid function.

Is Iodine the only real thing which keeps our thyroid functioning properly?

I'm wondering how people can become deficient in Iodine, and therefor have a thyroid problem. Iodine is found in a lot of our main food sources, meat, eggs, even some vegetables(?) (anyone know which ones?). So if people are consuming a good amount of meat, eggs and vegetables, how can they become so deficient.. does Iodine need a certain vitmain or mineral along with it for it to be absorbed properly? And/or, are there certain foods which stop Iodine absorption?

Also, how close is the RDA of Iodine to an amount we should really be consuming on a daily basis? I've read around 150mcg (whats mcg, micrograms?) is around an average for an adult. I was wondering because obviously the RDA of everything changes world wide, and if we where to look at the HG diet, i'ld presume they wouldn't be getting all that much Iodine in their diet, especially on days they needed to fast.

Thanks! :)

Yael Grauer
05-05-2007, 11:57 PM
This may not answer all your questions and may even lead to more :( but I went to a thyroid/seaweed workship at an herb conference a couple years ago taught by Ryan Drum and he has a cool article on his webpage on thyroid function and dysfunction: http://ryandrum.com/thyroid1.html

Robert Allison
05-06-2007, 07:17 AM
Guy Abraham has also extensively researched iodine--you can his work here:

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Research_I.shtml

Dr. David Brownstein (a colleague of Abraham) has written a book on the therapeutic use of iodine:

http://www.drbrownstein.com/singleproduct.asp?id=787

Elliot Royce
05-06-2007, 08:27 AM
actually I thought iodine was not present in very many foods (except seafood). It is added to our table salt to make sure people get enough.

Robb Wolf
05-06-2007, 08:34 AM
Hey Nikki! Hows it going Amiga?!

The responses above were awesome...way more informed than I am on the topic.

Garrett Smith
05-07-2007, 06:46 AM
Elliot,
Iodine is only added to sea salt in an amount sufficient to prevent goiter, not enough to promote health.

In my office, I perform the 24-hour iodine sufficiency test. I have not had a single person test iodine sufficient. If you read Abraham's work, the necessary doses of iodine for optimal health are in the mg doses, not the mcg doses (which is what is found in most foods and supps). People often start noticing a slow and steady weight reduction through the loading dose and beyond as their iodine-dependent tissues (a lot more than just the thyroid) are starting to function much better.

I personally did the "loading" dose of 50mg of Lugol's tablet iodine for about four months, and now do a combination of 12.5mg plus one cap of the BED OceanPlant Extract with it, in order to maximize absorption and nutritional synergy.

I should write an article for the PMenu on this one too. I need to get my butt in gear on this stuff.

Robert Allison
05-07-2007, 08:44 AM
I personally did the "loading" dose of 50mg of Lugol's tablet iodine for about four months, and now do a combination of 12.5mg plus one cap of the BED OceanPlant Extract with it, in order to maximize absorption and nutritional synergy.

That's pretty much what I do also.

Nikki Young
05-07-2007, 04:44 PM
Thanks guys for all your responses. I've been slowly reading all the article i've been linked too!

Garrett, you mentioned all your patients you do an iodine test on are all somewhat deficient, so i would presume on grand scale of things you would recommend the majority of people should take some form of iodine supplimentation to help obtain what they aren't getting through diet. What would your recomended dosage be for someone who hasn't gone in for an idoine sufficiency test? And, would it be best to suppliment with kelp over synthetic iodine if you still keep the same amount of iodine (probably need to consume more kelp tablets than synthetic). If you where to chose, which would be a better product in your opinion? http://www.naturesown.com.au/prod_details.php?ID=0789,0790
http://www.gnc.com/sm-natural-brand-kelp--pi-2133191.html

What would a daily dosage of idoine be, in your opinion, to start being too much for the body to handle? (on a grand scale, cause i know it would vary person to person)

Also, one more question :)
Is the testing you do for iodine sufficiency the general test conducted on people around the world, or is there a few different forms of testing which may differ in results? If so, who are the best practitioners (doctors, natural medicine doctors etc) to see to get the best results on your idoine levels?

Garrett Smith
05-07-2007, 06:49 PM
Nikki,
I'll come back to this later tonight or tomorrow morning...just wanted the thread to pop up again...

Garrett Smith
05-08-2007, 07:09 AM
Nikki,
On a worldwide scale, I don't know what the "standard" test for iodine is. I use FFP Labs, and the only testing they do is for iodine and the other halogens (bromine, chlorine, fluorine) that interfere with iodine function. Doctor's Data (a much bigger lab) has now started performing iodine labs due to the increased interest.

The loading dose of iodine is 50mg per day, or 50000mcg. If you can obtain this amount from a whole-food supplement, go for it. Brand shouldn't matter, although you definitely want to know whether or not it has been tested for toxic metals and other nasties. The maintenance dose is only 1/4 of the loading dose, at 12.5mg per day. Much easier to do with whole foods.

Starting slow and working the iodine dosage up has its own benefits. There can be "detoxing" of chlorine/fluorine/bromine from iodine's normal binding spots when the loading dose is undertaken--working up to the loading dose can nearly eliminate any of these possible symptoms. Also, if symptoms appear, a simple reduction of iodine dosage, with a following ramping back up, will also rid one of the symptoms.

In my area, I have mainly heard of naturopathic doctors and nurse practitioners performing these tests. Basically, it needs to be someone who is licensed to order the test, and "holistic" enough (even though I dislike that term) in order to understand its usefulness.

I just looked on Doctor's Data website and they say that they do testing worldwide. So, if you're interested, let me know and I'll discuss that further with them. Or, you could contact them and see if there are any practitioners in your area that use them, so they could do the test(s) for you... http://www.doctorsdata.com/home.asp

Nikki Young
05-08-2007, 04:00 PM
Thanks Garret, that info is awesome! How long would you reccomend a loading phase go for?

Also, something came up this morning and i was wondering if you wouldn't mind giving me your opinion.. as i think this issue may be a thyroid issue but as my knowledge isn't as advanced as yours, your thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

This morning one of my clients from a group class approached me with a problem. She said she's just not hungry anymore and is training really hard (2-3 times a week with her personal trainer, 3 times at my group exercise session [high intensity]), but now over 4 weeks of starting up with personal training and stuff, she's lost about 500grams. She still has a fairly high amount of body fat to lose (probably a good 20-30kg), but apparently has lost around 30kg of fat over the last year. Her diet is something like this; 2 weetbix with skim milk and a piece of fruit. Lunch- She's not hungry but will try and get down a small bowl of salad, occasionally with some chicken. Dinner - Still not hungry but knows she should eat, and generally has a meat source with veggies on the side. Come around lunch time she gets quite fatigued, this could be from lack of food.. but also maybe thyroid issue?

She also mentioned she takes Omega3's (not sure how many but i have given her a recomended dose of 10-20g) and 4 kelp tablets a day, which i presume equals around 600*mg iodine, she wasn't sure on the amount and i'm not sure how long she's been taking this dosage for.

Would love your thoughts on this as in my brief exposure to reading up on thyroid i presume this could be something she needs looked at and could be the un-delying cause for her not seeing any results in body composition even when eating hardly any calories and exercises 5-6days a week. I'm also suprised with her lack of protein consumption, she hasn't lost scale weight in the form of muscle mass (?)

Garrett Smith
05-08-2007, 06:14 PM
Nikki,
To easily find out if there is an iodine (thus thyroid) issue likely to be involved, ask her some simple questions:
Any history of fibroids (breast, ovarian, uterine)?
Any family history of breast cancer (especially in her mother or siblings)?

Yes to those questions, plus apparent "hypothyroid" symptoms (ie. constipation, low body temp, fatigue/lethargy, always feels cold, inability to lose weight, etc.) and we have a very likely candidate for iodine deficiency.

Nikki Young
05-08-2007, 10:34 PM
Garrett, that's great, thankyou for your time to reply on this thread and the other one!

I'm wondering how to get 50mg, even 12.5mg of iodine in the body. I've searched the internet to try and find synthetic iodine products but will only come up with a mutli-vitmain, where iodine is one ingredient in the mix, or kelp, where the highest level i've seen is 240mcg of iodine per tablet. I also remember a while back trying to find a synthetic iodine source and had no luck, the only thing i could find was kelp. So would this mean, to get 12.5mg of iodine from kelp tablets each containing around 240mcg of iodine, i will need to take around 50 tablets throughout the day??

Could a reason be that i can't find synthetic iodine on the shelf due to the fact a doctor has to prescribe it? I'm also thinking that maybe iodine in high amounts (more than a general dose of kelp tablets) could be quite harmful to the body and therefor the reason it's not 'allowed' on the shelf. I know you have had good results from your recomendations on dosages for loading and maintanence phases, but i was wondering how you came to the conclusion this was a good dose to stick with and be certain that over a short or long peroid of time, that amount wouldn't cause some negative side-effects?

Also, is potassium iodide just potassium, or is potassium iodide, iodine? Or is it a seperate mineral all together?

Any ideas on how i could get more iodine without popping so many kelp pills? :confused: Also, do you think if i recommend to my client to try the loading and maintanence phase of iodine (if it's possible to get higher amounts in hand) to see if she notices any results be a good place to start, or would you recommend getting her to do a few tests just to make sure she's doing the right thing for her bodys condition?

Thanks again :)

Robert Allison
05-09-2007, 06:41 AM
This is the one that I take, and I'm almost certain it is the one that Garrett recommends:

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Iodoral.htm

It is an iodine/potassium iodide supplement manufactured by Guy Abraham's company. 12.5 mg / tablet

Iodine doesn't require a doctor's perscription. I am pretty sure you can find it at some health food stores (at least here in the states), and I know a number of online retailers offer it.

Garrett Smith
05-09-2007, 07:10 AM
Nikki,
I use the Iodoral version, as Robert said. It is a tablet form of the old-fashioned "Lugol's" solution. It is a combination of iodine and potassium iodide, I forget the ratio.

Iodine is somewhat hard to find for consumers as there has been a massive amount of propaganda to create fear in people over iodine, which creates insurance issues, which creates fewer retailers, etc. Also, people with their "more is better" tendencies, along with the possibility of high initial iodine dosing aggravating autoimmune thyroid conditions, has created an interesting atmosphere around iodine.

The kelp issue you "discovered" in terms of the number of pills necessary, is exactly why iodine is one of the few purified/isolated supplements I use.

When people have really tight money issues, or if they just won't wait for the test results, I'll let them know that they can buy the iodine tincture at the store, paint a quarter/half-dollar sized spot on a soft skin area (inner thigh, lower abdomen, or inner forearm/wrist). They simply re-paint a new spot when the old spot has disappeared completely. The effectiveness of this method is somewhat questionable (as to how much iodine gets in), however, some does get in, and it is very inexpensive and accessible.

If you want to get some Iodoral from me, contact me off the board.

Jeremy Shepard
05-09-2007, 09:25 AM
What is the general consensus on the necessity of a loading phase for long-term iodine supplementation?

Garrett Smith
05-09-2007, 02:03 PM
Jeramy,
The loading phase is standard practice among those practitioners who use iodine testing and treatment.

According to the testing procedures for iodine, 90% excretion of a single 50g dose over a 24-hour period indicates iodine "sufficiency". That means that the body keeps 5g per day approximately. So if one went to a 12.5 mg daily dose and only *eventually* would need 5mg a day, the "maintenance" dose would theoretically get one there over a long period.

From what I've seen, typical loading dose periods (assuming a post-test is taken) are 2-3 bottles worth of 180 tablets at 4 per day, which is a 3-4.5 month period. I have no idea how long it would take to reach sufficiency on the maintenance dose, and I don't want to even mess with that math, knowing that different people "hold on" to the iodine they take at different rates, and not everyone adds the sea vegetable supplement (to increase synergy and utilization) that I do.

Hope that answered the question.

Nikki Young
05-09-2007, 03:51 PM
Garrett, i'm sorry for always having another question after every reply!

I just wanted to clear up a couple things you said.
"Also, people with their "more is better" tendencies, along with the possibility of high initial iodine dosing aggravating autoimmune thyroid conditions, has created an interesting atmosphere around iodine."

I've read that too much iodine can cause thyroid issues as well, as you mentioned above. I'm wondering though if iodine is hard to find on the market for the reason that people could take too much, wouldn't 50g be considered too much, especially if a general synthetic iodine sup would have 12.5mg*, people would need to take 4 tablets a day. It has just got me thinking because along with your reply to Jeremy's post, you said the body can only hold 5mg of iodine at any one time. So wouldn't even 12.5mg be too exessive? Especially if taken in a synthetic form, where an overdose of any one thing can become toxic and start causing negative effects (including thyroid issues. Is the reason for saying 12.5mg of synthetic iodine the reason that the body can't recognise synthetic as well as natural, and therefor only some of the idoine will end up in the blood stream anyway? So wouldn't taking less of natural iodine (kelp) be better because the body can recognise and it use it.. therefor you can consume less (maybe half of what you'ld recomend for a synthetic dose) and get similar results?

Also, because iodine is only really rich in sea products. Which nature has (i guess) made not so available to us for a reason we don't need that much.. Has iodine become sufficient is some of our food sources which should contain iodine so we should actually be getting around 12.5mg of iodine in our blood through natural sources? I can't imagine anyone ever eating as much kelp as they would need to, to obtain 12.5mg of iodine in one sitting, on a constant basis.

Nikki Young
05-13-2007, 08:10 PM
Bump
:o

Garrett Smith
05-14-2007, 07:58 AM
Garrett, i'm sorry for always having another question after every reply!

I just wanted to clear up a couple things you said.
"Also, people with their "more is better" tendencies, along with the possibility of high initial iodine dosing aggravating autoimmune thyroid conditions, has created an interesting atmosphere around iodine."

I've read that too much iodine can cause thyroid issues as well, as you mentioned above. I'm wondering though if iodine is hard to find on the market for the reason that people could take too much,

From what I've seen, there's little evidence of ability to overdose iodine in a thyroid-healthy person. People with autoimmune thyroid issues can cause themselves problems by taking too much too soon. And yes, it's hard to find on the general market because the vast majority of people are idiots, the same reason it's hard to find solid amounts of betaine hydrochloride (stomach acid supplement). Because the dumb people hurt themselves with it.

wouldn't 50g be considered too much, especially if a general synthetic iodine sup would have 12.5mg*, people would need to take 4 tablets a day.

50mg per day is the loading dose, only to be done for a temporary time. It is four tablets a day, in order to saturate the tissues and kick out all of the chlorine/fluorine/bromine that has been occupying the same spaces that iodine *should* have been.

It has just got me thinking because along with your reply to Jeremy's post, you said the body can only hold 5mg of iodine at any one time. So wouldn't even 12.5mg be too exessive? Especially if taken in a synthetic form, where an overdose of any one thing can become toxic and start causing negative effects (including thyroid issues.

When the body is "iodine sufficient" (as in full of iodine), from the 24-hour urine test, it appears that the body will only hold onto about 5mg of the 50mg loading dose used in the test. Considering I haven't seen a single issue yet from using this protocol and the isolated iodine(s), I'm going to keep using it. Again, people have gotten into this "iodine is something to be afraid of" mentality, and many are paying the price.

Is the reason for saying 12.5mg of synthetic iodine the reason that the body can't recognise synthetic as well as natural, and therefor only some of the idoine will end up in the blood stream anyway? So wouldn't taking less of natural iodine (kelp) be better because the body can recognise and it use it.. therefor you can consume less (maybe half of what you'ld recomend for a synthetic dose) and get similar results?

There are very few supplements or foods that the body absorbs 100% of. One can try doing a smaller dose of sea vegetables, with pre- and post-testing to see if they actually become iodine sufficient that way. Without testing, it's all a guessing game. My experience with using sea veggies, particularly in the loading dose phase, has been disappointing enough (mainly garnered from patient feedback) that I decided to stick with the Iodoral.

Also, because iodine is only really rich in sea products. Which nature has (i guess) made not so available to us for a reason we don't need that much.. Has iodine become sufficient is some of our food sources which should contain iodine so we should actually be getting around 12.5mg of iodine in our blood through natural sources? I can't imagine anyone ever eating as much kelp as they would need to, to obtain 12.5mg of iodine in one sitting, on a constant basis.

The answers to your questions are in this link, http://optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-02/IOD_02.htm and you can find many more in the papers/articles here: http://optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Research_I.shtml

I personally have this idea that humans in general prefer to live on the ocean coast, both for easy access to the world's biggest food supply and due to the sources of iodine (seawater for swimming, seafoods, and sea vegetables). So, our modern practices of moving away from the coasts, which then tends to create lower seafood and sea vegetable intake, along with polluting our nutrition/environment with chlorine/fluorine/bromine has created the mess we are in now.

Tony Ferous
05-15-2007, 02:09 AM
Garrett,

Have you ever noted iodine supplementation inducing acne in patients? Iodine is often implicated.

Thanks!

Garrett Smith
05-15-2007, 06:16 AM
Tony,
I haven't noticed that.

When the body is deficient in dietary iodine and/or it is overwhelmed with exogenous chlorine/fluorine/bromine, then those last three settle in to the iodine's rightful spots. When iodine supplementation is initiated, those other halogens get "kicked out" of the spots they were occupying. This means that the body starts to excrete them through the various channels. Typical (very) early symptoms of this process are a brassy taste in the mouth, frontal headache, and excessive salivation. These symptoms go away very quickly, either with time or a simple reduction in iodine dosage for a little while. The acne issue you speak of could very well be a "longer-term" detoxification reaction.

Nikki Young
05-16-2007, 02:03 PM
Thanks Garret :)

Paul Findley
05-30-2007, 11:19 AM
Any thoughts on Lugols Sln? Other than risks associated with consuming lab grade material.

http://curezone.com/faq/q.asp?a=13,281,2962&q=493

http://www.nilesbio.com/prod280.html

Garrett Smith
05-30-2007, 06:42 PM
No thoughts. I don't know what the "risks" would be.

Heck, I think the FDA puts more people in danger than they help, so caveat emptor anyway...

Nikki Young
10-18-2007, 12:38 AM
Sorry to bring this thread up again! But thought it might be better than starting up a new one with the same subject.

In doing some further reading on thyroid, etc. I came across a situation some people have where their bodies are unable to convert T4 into T3. I couldn't find out how this actually started to form in the body and was wondering if anyone knows: 1. how a problem like this starts to occur (the bodies inability to convert)? and 2. any cures?

Thanks!

Garrett Smith
10-22-2007, 01:31 PM
Nikki,
Dr. Jorge Flechas, of FFP Laboratory and international iodine supplementation fame, believes that the T4-to-T3 conversion problems are linked to an iodine deficiency in the peripheral tissues. Same problem, different face.

Nikki Young
10-22-2007, 04:27 PM
Thats Garrett. The main reason i'm interested is because i caught up with a lady the other day, around her late 50's. And in conversation she brought up how her doctor said her body wasn't able to convert T4 to T3. She is extremely skinny and finds it impossible to put on any weight. Because her doctors (the doctors are 'holistic' doctors) dont know why her body is un-able to convert T4 to T3 they are just recommending her to eat more healthy foods (protein etc) to try and put on some weight, or at least stop her losing any more.

I came across this reading after reading your post:

'The T4 to T3 conversion requires the catalytic selenoenzyme iodothyronine deiodinase. As a consequence, T4 and T3 deficiencies together are commonest in individuals living in environments depleted in both iodine and selenium. In contrast, depressed T3, without unusually low serum T4, is a characteristic of the populations of regions where diets contain adequate iodine, but lack selenium. Furthermore, animal studies suggest that just as excess iodine consumption results in lowered serum T4 levels, an elevated intake of selenium may depress serum T3 (Benhe et al, 1992).'


So would selenium be something someone in her situation should take as well as some iodine?

Also, do you have any links to articles etc on Jorge Flechas findings on this, or any other good solid information on this subject, as i would like to not only read it myself but also pass onto the lady i talked too.

Thanks :)

Garrett Smith
10-23-2007, 06:21 AM
Nikki,
Dr. Flechas' website is www.helpmythyroid.com . He's written some decent articles there. He has been extremely helpful on the phone when I've personally called him about confusing patient cases.

Another good site to read iodine info is www.optimox.com under the "Iodine Research" link.

Googling "Flechas Iodine" might give you even more of what you're looking for.

As far as supplementing iodine, I always have folks get a baseline TSH done (at the minimum) and the 24-hour iodine loading test before I'll start them on iodine. Getting the patient on a good B-complex beforehand can also help avoid some potential issues.

Selenium is a great addition and could absolutely be playing a part here. Scientific Botanicals (the company I've mentioned with both the iodine and zinc drops) also makes a pretty hefty selenium drop supplement, at 50 mcg/drop.

Hope that helps.

Gittit Shwartz
07-28-2008, 04:43 PM
Would you consider an iodine "patch test" to be any good? I tried painting some 2.5% iodine tincture on my inner thigh just to see what would happen. The 2" diameter patch was soaked up in 7 hours. I just can't figure out a way to do a 24 hr loading test over here...

Garrett Smith
07-28-2008, 06:36 PM
Gittit,
I'm not a big fan of the "patch" test, but it may have some (albeit shaky) validity.

If you try it on different "soft skin" parts on consecutive attempts and notice the disappearance time lengthening each time, then you may be onto something. If you do it, PM me and let me know how it went.

Amanda Mitchell
04-20-2009, 10:50 AM
Nikki,
There can be "detoxing" of chlorine/fluorine/bromine from iodine's normal binding spots when the loading dose is undertaken--working up to the loading dose can nearly eliminate any of these possible symptoms. Also, if symptoms appear, a simple reduction of iodine dosage, with a following ramping back up, will also rid one of the symptoms.

What are those symptoms? How do they manifest themselves?

Garrett Smith
04-20-2009, 11:04 AM
Symptoms I have seen of bromine detoxification, as confirmed by Dr. Flechas (iodine/thyroid expert) are frontal headache, brassy taste, excess salivation, and short-term cystic acne.

To see the full range of bromine detox symptoms, simply Google "bromism". The ones above are pretty typical and are the ones I forewarn my patients about.

Amanda Mitchell
04-20-2009, 12:44 PM
Symptoms I have seen of bromine detoxification, as confirmed by Dr. Flechas (iodine/thyroid expert) are frontal headache, brassy taste, excess salivation, and short-term cystic acne.

To see the full range of bromine detox symptoms, simply Google "bromism". The ones above are pretty typical and are the ones I forewarn my patients about.

I am seeing the acne in strange places; I figured that had to be a side effect, but wanted to make sure. Feeling exceptional otherwise!

Garrett Smith
04-20-2009, 01:35 PM
If you want the symptoms to be less or go away, simply lower your dose or take a couple days off. If you can manage the symptoms, then you can stay on the current dose. Pretty simple.

Greg Davis
05-31-2009, 11:23 AM
Thought this might be worth noting for anyone looking into potential iodine issues and is an occasional smoker:

Endocrine effects of marijuana
(http://www.ukcia.org/research/EndocrineEffects.pdf)
Cannabinoid effect on thyroid function was first noted in 1965, when
marijuana extract was shown to reduce iodine accumulation in the rat thyroid.

Acute administration of THC in rodents reduces levels of thyroxine and TSH by as much as 90% for up to 6 hours. In addition, marijuana extract has been shown to decrease the release of radioactive iodine from the thyroid.

These effects are reversed by administration of exogenous TSH, suggesting a hypothalamic site of action.

With chronic administration of THC, however, the thyroid depressant
effect of cannabinoids is lost, which may indicate the development of tolerance.

Sort of counter-intuitively, the last part seems to suggest that the effect is something to concern oneself with when smoking irregularly..

Chris Rice
06-03-2009, 11:09 AM
Garrett - I have been on Synthroid for several years now (hypo). What are your thoughts on trying the Iodine at this point?

Garrett Smith
06-03-2009, 12:01 PM
Iodine is an essential nutrient, so it can help anyone who needs it, even those on T4 (Synthroid).

I personally use Armour Thyroid on patients while I'm trying to help them recover proper thyroid function (so they don't need thyroid hormones at all, unless they don't have a thyroid gland).