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James Evans
05-11-2007, 05:40 AM
Just playing with some ideas in my head and I'm reluctant to pay the $60 odd dollars that this book would cost me in the UK. I reckon Pavel isn't struggling to feed his family.

The basic programme of 2x5 reps in two exercises 5 days per week.

Pick a big exercise like the deadlift, combine it with something like a the side press.

Ok got that.

Here are the questions:


When do you up the weight? Every time you lift or weekly?
How do you make incremental gains in something like the side press if you are using KBs? Up the reps?
Is this exactly what it says on the tin? Do you just do 2x5 or are we talking multiple warm up sets?


Do you just focus on this for a month or so or can you add in other stuff into your schedule. I've read a recommendation to cycle a month of this followed by a month of KB work like swings and snatches. Are you going to mess yourself up (and the potential results) if you do this 5 times a week and throw in some intense conditioning work (Ross Enamait style stuff perhaps)?

Curious to hear your views.

Rick Deckart
05-11-2007, 06:08 AM
Just playing with some ideas in my head and I'm reluctant to pay the $60 odd dollars that this book would cost me in the UK. I reckon Pavel isn't struggling to feed his family.


A wise decision, while not bad it is not worth that kind of money...


The basic programme of 2x5 reps in two exercises 5 days per week.

Pick a big exercise like the deadlift, combine it with something like a the side press.

Ok got that.

Here are the questions:


When do you up the weight? Every time you lift or weekly?
How do you make incremental gains in something like the side press if you are using KBs? Up the reps?
Is this exactly what it says on the tin? Do you just do 2x5 or are we talking multiple warm up sets?


Do you just focus on this for a month or so or can you add in other stuff into your schedule. I've read a recommendation to cycle a month of this followed by a month of KB work like swings and snatches. Are you going to mess yourself up (and the potential results) if you do this 5 times a week and throw in some intense conditioning work (Ross Enamait style stuff perhaps)?

Curious to hear your views.

The basic idea is to increase the weight of the first set every workout and to adjust the second set (90% of first set) accordingly. No warmup, plenty of rest (4--5 min) between the sets. Start low and you will find that you can ride the cycle for anywhere between 8--16 sessions. Then rest a couple of days, increase the starting weight of the next cycle and ride that cycle as long as possible. So if you start as a novice with 70kg in the deadlift and increase the sets 2.5kg every workout for 12 sessions you end with 110kg. Relax a couple of days and may start the next cycle with 72.5--75kg---repeat, repeat, repeat. At some time this linear progression won't work anymore, than you have several options: a) use a variant of the deadlift, say sumo style, snatch grip... b) wave the increases, say two sessions increase 2.5kg, next session reduce 2.5kg etc... c) stick to a given weight for several sessions, say three, than increase 2.5kg in session four and again stick to the weight...

I think you get the general idea. And no warmup sets... Well back in the days when I tried that I found it did not work for me so well. I don't doubt that it works, the system is essential an advanced progression, but with my trashed back things got worse, especially without warmup sets...

With respect for conditioning I think Pavel T. was not so fond of the idea to combine these. His approach was more two weeks of P2P, two weeks of conditioning...

Rick Deckart
05-11-2007, 06:10 AM
Just a short correction, of course you end with 100kg in the above mentioned example...

James Evans
05-11-2007, 06:13 AM
Thanks Peter.

Are you talking 8 to 16 consecutive sessions or this number broken down to 5 a week?

Rick Deckart
05-11-2007, 06:17 AM
As far as I recall it's five days a week, as many weeks as it takes to ride the cycle to it's end. The variations are endless: you could do it every day, but then you would have to rest for a full week, or you could decide to do two session per week and ride the cycle for two or three months. You could also swap sets of five for sets of three once five get difficult, ride the cycle for some additional sessions and then do some final session with doubles...

Steve Shafley
05-11-2007, 06:18 AM
I seriously mislike the "no warm-ups" idea, and think it's misguided. Wait. I KNOW it's misguided. I don't care what Judd Biasatto did, it's a mistake not to warm up for deadlifting or any other heavy lifting.

Rick Deckart
05-11-2007, 06:22 AM
Exactly, this is downright dangerous if you have issues with your back, I found that out by trial and error... My best top set of five back in the days was 75kg and that was almost killing me---for many reasons. Not to warmup for limit deadlifts, especially if you have health issues, is frankly spoken quite nuts...

James Evans
05-11-2007, 06:33 AM
I'm pretty damn lazy about warming up and have paid the price with a lot of SGDLs in the first few months of this year.

I resent having a tight back when I run but I've only got myself to blame.

Rick Deckart
05-11-2007, 06:50 AM
Some minor additional points:

Pavel T. advocates to run independent cycles for the two exercises, that means you could use a step cycle (stick to the chosen weight for several sessions) for the press and a linear progression or wave cycle for the deadlift.

personally I try to balance things out, running truly independent progressions won't balance things out: so if you start unbalanced you will end far more unbalanced.

I always thought that there are some serious contradictions in P2P, for example there is something about KBs and high reps and how great are these but on the other hand he advocates low reps and low reps only as [U]the[\U] solution for strength training.

And then the obvious dislike of the idea of conditioning...

Bill Ripley
05-11-2007, 07:00 AM
James - I have a couple of PTTP spreadsheets I can send you.

James Evans
05-11-2007, 07:05 AM
I guess he feels that swings and snatches are the only conditioning you could ever need.

And yes, I thought the kb was the panacea for every S&C requirement, I'm surprised DLs even get a look in.

James Evans
05-11-2007, 07:09 AM
James - I have a couple of PTTP spreadsheets I can send you.

Bill, that's very kind of you. I think Pavel's actual stuff may provoke more questions than I actually started this thread with.

joe murphy
05-11-2007, 07:53 AM
James - I've got that book, and would be happy to send it to you. if you like, shoot me an address at jh.murphy at gmail.com.

I am rooting for leicester however, for no other reason than I've known geordan murphy's brother for 20+ years.

James Evans
05-11-2007, 08:24 AM
Thanks Joe.

That seems as good as reason any to back Leicester. However, I hope that tomorrow brings disappointment to the Murphy household (both of them)!

Dave Van Skike
05-11-2007, 10:31 AM
I guess he feels that swings and snatches are the only conditioning you could ever need.

And yes, I thought the kb was the panacea for every S&C requirement, I'm surprised DLs even get a look in.


I have a fondness for PTTP. A couple thoughts, PTTP is internally consistent, but completely biased towards strength training, not S&C. Pavel's consistent message is to figure out your priority and focus on that. If your are trying to get strong... Do strength training. If you are trying to train conditioning........ do that.

He would say that conjugate training is frustrating and challenging for the self coached. I think that is a fair statement but there are plenty of smart folks who disagree.

The no warm up thing was never a problem for me. That said, once I started incorporating weight based warm-ups ala' Starting Strength, my sessions got a lot more productive. I think folks with sedentary jobs need warm-ups.

Take up the offer of a loaner copy of PTTP or if you can lay your hands on it, Beyond Bodybuilding. Pavel's message makes more sense in context.

I miss this type of progression. The whole five days a week of lifting has a nice feel to it after a couple weeks, it never seems "hard enough" but it always works for me...for about 3 weeks. I keep waiting for my current progress to stall so I can try Justa's single progression from Rock Iron Steel.

joe murphy
05-11-2007, 10:57 AM
Thanks Joe.

That seems as good as reason any to back Leicester. However, I hope that tomorrow brings disappointment to the Murphy household (both of them)!

you're welcome. you can keep the book, of course.

should be a good game, looking forward to it.

Daniel Christensen
05-14-2007, 02:05 AM
On the topic of Pavel, is there any general advice anyone can offer on when and how much to tense up in different exercises?

For pure strength work (e.g. DLs) I instictively tighten up. But what about when doing jumps or swings or grappling?

James Evans
05-14-2007, 02:55 AM
Well Joe, the Murphys had the last laugh in the end. Leicester absolutely hammered us, men against boys style. Absolutely filthy day didn't help.

All I can say is well done Leicester as they march on towards the treble.

Neal Winkler
05-14-2007, 06:31 AM
Daniel,

One thing that seperates elite athletes from amatuers is their ability to tense and relax instinctively with amazing precision. When lifting heavy things you're going to want to tense up - what Stuart McGill calls "superstifness" - other times it wouldn't be appropriate too be tense at all times. In movements like a punch or golf swing it's best to be loose right up until the moment of impact when you create whole body stiffness and then go immediately back to being loose.

Danny John
05-14-2007, 06:50 AM
There is a ton of free information at dragondoor.com on this. Check the articles. Also, at bearpowered.com there is a forum dedicated to using the method.

Robb Wolf
05-14-2007, 07:42 AM
I like Pavels stuff a lot. Little kitchy and pricey? Sure but he REALLY knows his shite. Strength before Strength Endurance...

Dave Van Skike
05-14-2007, 09:49 AM
Daniel,

One thing that seperates elite athletes from amatuers is their ability to tense and relax instinctively with amazing precision. When lifting heavy things you're going to want to tense up - what Stuart McGill calls "superstifness" - other times it wouldn't be appropriate too be tense at all times. In movements like a punch or golf swing it's best to be loose right up until the moment of impact when you create whole body stiffness and then go immediately back to being loose.


Neal,

Excellent addition. I have seen observed phenomena myself adn in others in a number of sports and even in jobs that require manual dexterity and high levels of skill~ see framing carpernters, concrete workers etc. HAve never seen a really good synopsis of it.

If you have further links or citations on this subject I'd love to see it, maybe in a new thread?

Daniel Christensen
05-15-2007, 08:10 AM
Daniel,

One thing that seperates elite athletes from amatuers is their ability to tense and relax instinctively with amazing precision. When lifting heavy things you're going to want to tense up - what Stuart McGill calls "superstifness" - other times it wouldn't be appropriate too be tense at all times. In movements like a punch or golf swing it's best to be loose right up until the moment of impact when you create whole body stiffness and then go immediately back to being loose.

Thanks Neal

I think I was trying to outsmart myself - looking for some theory of optimal tension, but I guess the best way of working out what is optimal for a given activity is to look at expert performers that you can relate to and see how much tension they put in?

As an aside, I thought Scott Sonnon had some theory of optimal tension (probably called neuro-optimal-tensionatics (TM)). Other than the penchant for big technical sounding copyrighted terms, there are some people on the RMAX website who display some amazing movement skills.

Dan

Mark Fenner
05-15-2007, 08:45 AM
Take up the offer of a loaner copy of PTTP or if you can lay your hands on it, Beyond Bodybuilding. Pavel's message makes more sense in context.


I can't second this recommendation strongly enough. Beyond Bodybuilding is amazing as a resource for lifting ideas. If you are in a rut, open to a random page and try that idea out.

As far as consistency between PTTP or Russian-Kettlebell-Challenge or any other pair of Pavel's programs (or between any two programs in existence) ... don't be misled into seeking the Grand Ultimate Truth of Training.

Just seek progress every 4-6 weeks. Rest. Repeat. And you'll get there.

Regards,
Mark

P.S. Some relevant quotes for heavy duty fire-power (*chuckle*):

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
-- Ralph Waldo Emmerson

I distrust all systematizers and I avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity.
-- Nietzsche

Neal Winkler
05-15-2007, 09:01 AM
Dave, I would get a copy of Stuart McGill's "Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance." You might also want to look around at stuff by Bruce Lee.

Daniel, it just all depends on the activity, the phase of the activity ect. Elite performers just "know" how to eliminate co-contraction of antagonist muscle groups to create optimum efficiency of movement, or to create co-contraction when it's appropriate (e.g. moment of impact in a punch). I don't know how much help watching would be, and asking elite performers might not always be as productive as they might not really know because it's more of an innate skill that comes through practice, practice, practice. Bruce Lee knew it, and scientists like McGill know it because of EMS studies on elite versus amatuer athletes.

Scotty Hagnas
06-12-2007, 11:06 AM
As an aside, I thought Scott Sonnon had some theory of optimal tension (probably called neuro-optimal-tensionatics (TM)). Other than the penchant for big technical sounding copyrighted terms, there are some people on the RMAX website who display some amazing movement skills.

Dan[/QUOTE]

Hi Dan-

You are thinking of his performance breathing protocols, and the concept of proportional force. Global, whole body tension will increase strength momentarily, but at the expense of mobility and fine motor skills. I see trainees often who brace reflexively (ala Pavel's power breathing) at even the slightest exertion- they are invariably slower, with uncoordinated, inefficient movement. These individuals waste so much extra energy on every rep - though strong, they come in toward the end of the pack on the WOD. Training to brace globally will mean that you will eventually respond this way in all situations - not a good thing, IMO.

I don't think any one of his products really focuses on this - search the mag and forum for performance breathing. I'm pretty sure it's explained in a free article.

Scotty Hagnas
CrossFit Portland

Daniel Christensen
06-13-2007, 05:10 AM
Good post, thanks Scotty.

Daniel Christensen
06-14-2007, 07:32 PM
Scotty

Out of curiousity, is this something you use/ how do you implement it?

My personal breathing-tension continuum is something like this:
Heavy lifts - as tight as possible
Stretching - breathe into the stretch
Meditation - awareness of breathing
BJJ - hope like *@#$ that eventually I'll get a breath.

Scotty Hagnas
06-16-2007, 11:41 AM
Hi Daniel-

Yes, I try to use it in almost all situations. Your strength may drop some at first as you get used to it, but eventually you can develop a very solid core while staying efficient. Practicing this style of breathing would probably help your BJJ, in particular!

Let me know if you have any problems finding those articles.

Scotty Hagnas
CrossFit Portland

Daniel Christensen
06-17-2007, 07:28 AM
Hi Scotty

At this time, it looks like if you want access to more than the 2 most recent issues of the RMAX magazine, you need to become a prememium* member (i.e. pay money).

This might be a blessing in disguise for me - one of my training goals this year is to have less training goals - and I can probably do with staying focused on my current couple of goals. That said, the people at the RMAX site show some amazing movement skills, and a graceful mover I am not, so I'll revisit this issue later on.

*oops