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-   -   2X BW DL W/O Heavy Deadlifts (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1389)

R. Alan Hester 07-28-2007 07:50 PM

2X BW DL W/O Heavy Deadlifts
 
Can one pull a double bodyweight deadlift without doing heavy deads, instead doing fast pulls and KB swings. Mark Twight raised that issue on his website some time back when he questioned the conventional approach to building deadlift strength. . Also, Mike Mahler, who has not touched a barbell in years, recently started doing barbell deadlifts after years of KB swings, snatches, and C&P and he is pulling 2XBW out of the gate.

How is this? Is it that fast, explosive movements recruit more motor units, thereby allowing one to call on those when attempting a max effort? If so, why do we labor under heavy weight?

Mark Twight’s link:
http://www.gymjones.com/schedule.php?date=20070711

Mike Mahler’s workout log:
http://www.irongarmx.net/phpBB2/view...a72518a673e9c3

Steven Low 07-28-2007 09:30 PM

Yes. High level (male) gymnasts tend to be able to as well through training of high plyometric moments in vault, tumbling and rings. I started out around 1.5x bodyweight and worked my way up to 2x bodyweight in about 5 or so DL workouts so it's not that bad.

And yes, fast explosive movements basically adapt your body to quickly recruit your high threshold motor units and then most likely preferentially cause those to hypertrophy as well.

I see no problem with laboring under heavy weight and actually like it. Nothing like the accomplishment of pulling heavy deads off the floor or other heavy weighted exercises. Although it is easier to get injured under those conditions I guess.

David Aguasca 07-29-2007 12:17 PM

i don't know, but i'll let you know if it works for me.

i haven't been doing any fast pulls, but i have been doing litvinovs with double KB swings.

i DLed 235lbs, or 1.59x BW, in the first week of June. i'm trying to get to a 600lb CFT by the end of the year, so in about another month or two i'm going to start DLing again. hopefully there'll be a significant change in my 5RM at that time. i'm going to test my CFT near the end of december.

Robb Wolf 07-30-2007 09:40 AM

What is the DL world record right now? I know some of the better Ol'ers are up in the 850-900 range, certainly knocking on that top end.

Some of my best and easiest DL'ing was on the heals of a lot of OL. I had an easy 2.5xbw...but this is from a base of PL years ago when I was at a 3.1xBW.

I think Josh Everett is at like a 3.15xBW and is "just" an Olifter.

Interesting stuff to be sure although Mark Twights comment on the development of the DL sounds a lot like some material that people have crucified Glassman about...

Dave Van Skike 07-30-2007 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb Wolf (Post 17312)
What is the DL world record right now? I know some of the better Ol'ers are up in the 850-900 range, certainly knocking on that top end.

Some of my best and easiest DL'ing was on the heals of a lot of OL. I had an easy 2.5xbw...but this is from a base of PL years ago when I was at a 3.1xBW.

I think Josh Everett is at like a 3.15xBW and is "just" an Olifter.

Interesting stuff to be sure although Mark Twights comment on the development of the DL sounds a lot like some material that people have crucified Glassman about...


Here's my meta take on the whole to DL or not Dl, .... Dl is a simple lift, not super technical and an excellent measure of all around strength. That said, physiologically it's freakishly complex with almost every flexor and extensor in the body being asked to work in a coordinated fashion at close to peak output. I think that is why you consistently hear from high level deadlifters that it is draining on the CNS....

Now, some people can DL often and to great effect, others need to use assistance exercises in lieu of the DL,

some have claimed that they can train someone into a 500 plus pound DL, lifting only a couple times a year. Others have claimed that high rep KB swings will do the trick.....

dubious claims both. it's not that it can't happen, it's that I'd take even money or worse odds that you can't replicate this success across a broad population. of otherwise "normal" people.

Mark seems to be saying....

"One of our seminar students pulled a 450# Deadlift at a bodyweight of 160#. His DL training diet consisted of a high volume of fast pulls at an average of 135# with his heaviest lifts done at 185#. Quite an interesting result, which causes one to ask a few questions about what works and why."

Bingo....We're not sure why it works, but it seems like it does.....call it the "WTH effect", the black box or deadlift voodoo....

For my money, I'd look at what has consistently produced results that we can understand.

Deadlifting to get better at Deadlifting. makes sense.

Deadlifting less frequently with focus on assistance exercises to build weak points.

OL lifting.. it's a hard dynamic pull using all the same muscles and many of the same neural pathways....makes sense.

Don't do DL, focus on hi pulls and heavy swings.......maybe but I'd bet on the other three if I wanted a big DL. If i didn't care one way or the other, then no harm no foul....do what you like and test DL from time to time...but don't pull a Waterbury and claim you discovered a new system of DL training. Not that Mark is doing this, he seems to be making a fairly common observation.

Steve Shafley 07-30-2007 06:11 PM

Deadlifts can go up from overall strengthening to a point. Then it's specialized strengthening, based on shoring up the weak points of the lift.

It's not one, or the other, it's both, plus a whole bunch of other crap.

William Hunter 07-30-2007 06:43 PM

I believe the DL record is just over 1000 lbs

John Alston 07-31-2007 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R. Alan Hester (Post 17247)
Also, Mike Mahler, who has not touched a barbell in years, recently started doing barbell deadlifts after years of KB swings, snatches, and C&P and he is pulling 2XBW out of the gate.

Let's remember that Mahler put in the years a while back so his "right out of the gate" is already built on a serious, long term platform higher than most people will ever have.

James R. Climer 07-31-2007 01:59 PM

I never tried to DL more than 265 in my
life before starting CF in Aug. 2004

By October 04 I had 400 lbs @ BW 205
with no specific training beyond the WOD,
and I haven't budged my squat above
315 in all that time. The deadlift just
seems to feel more natural to me.

James R. Climer 07-31-2007 02:03 PM

BTW, Anyone here ever try to run the mile
in sub-5 minutes and get a 2.5x BW DL
on the same day?

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/25/44989.html


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