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-   -   Done Screwing Around (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1718)

Eric Jones 10-21-2007 09:25 PM

Done Screwing Around
 
After trying many variants and ways of cooking (haha pun) different dietary approaches to gaining mass, I am going to go with a new method.

First, i tried the Zone (18 blocks, I'm was about 160lb, 13%BF), got way too lean too fast, then went up to 26 blocks 3x fat, went up t0 165/10% and stalled, then tried Paleo/IF - 16fast/8eat and got up to my current 170 ~9-10%bf. Now I'm stalled again. I train hard mixing CF, slow and O lifts, Air Force PT, and now Jiu-Jitsu. The training will remain mostly consistent, but I am willing to drop some CF metcon for more O-Lift work.

As much as I hate to say it, I think I will need to stop IFing. I've been doing it since early summer and love it. I still put on muscle and lots of strength while on it and have never felt healthier. Recently I just haven't been able to put much more muscle on. I believe it is because I just can't fit enough calories into that narrow of a window and without lunch and breakfast.

I was thinking along the lines of a seat of the pants Paleo with post W/O carb up with yams and raisins Mon-Fri and a free for all on the weekends. I just dont know at this stage.

Any thoughts?

Allen Yeh 10-22-2007 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Jones (Post 21204)
After trying many variants and ways of cooking (haha pun) different dietary approaches to gaining mass, I am going to go with a new method.

First, i tried the Zone (18 blocks, I'm was about 160lb, 13%BF), got way too lean too fast, then went up to 26 blocks 3x fat, went up t0 165/10% and stalled, then tried Paleo/IF - 16fast/8eat and got up to my current 170 ~9-10%bf. Now I'm stalled again. I train hard mixing CF, slow and O lifts, Air Force PT, and now Jiu-Jitsu. The training will remain mostly consistent, but I am willing to drop some CF metcon for more O-Lift work.

As much as I hate to say it, I think I will need to stop IFing. I've been doing it since early summer and love it. I still put on muscle and lots of strength while on it and have never felt healthier. Recently I just haven't been able to put much more muscle on. I believe it is because I just can't fit enough calories into that narrow of a window and without lunch and breakfast.

I was thinking along the lines of a seat of the pants Paleo with post W/O carb up with yams and raisins Mon-Fri and a free for all on the weekends. I just dont know at this stage.

Any thoughts?

How many calories are you shooting for in your eating window?

Possibly feast days and fasting days? Like what Chris Forbis did. I think one day was a 5000 cal day and the next day was a 3500 cal day?

Adding a Coconut milk shake in is a easy way to get a lot in.

Mike ODonnell 10-22-2007 06:57 AM

IF is too hard a window to fill yourself up with calories.....but it can be done. Focus on PROTEIN....more so 1-1.5x your bodyweight. You will be amazed how as you find the "magic" protein number you will see muscle start to pile back on. Fun trick, every meal....suck down another 30-40grams Whey mixed in water...milk....half milk/water....do that 3 times a day and you are going to see results. Of course the only 2 ways to put on weight is less exercise (metcon stuff) and more food (primarily protein). While pwo stuff is good for recovery, I still think it is over rated for muscle growth....as your muscles grow all day long and take a long time to rebuild. Also training wise add in some hypertrophy sets of 10-12 reps on some exercises after you do your more strength training.

John Alston 10-22-2007 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell (Post 21212)
IF is too hard a window to fill yourself up with calories.....but it can be done. Focus on PROTEIN....more so 1-1.5x your bodyweight. You will be amazed how as you find the "magic" protein number you will see muscle start to pile back on. Fun trick, every meal....suck down another 30-40grams Whey mixed in water...milk....half milk/water....do that 3 times a day and you are going to see results. Of course the only 2 ways to put on weight is less exercise (metcon stuff) and more food (primarily protein). While pwo stuff is good for recovery, I still think it is over rated for muscle growth....as your muscles grow all day long and take a long time to rebuild. Also training wise add in some hypertrophy sets of 10-12 reps on some exercises after you do your more strength training.

I tell ya, I am looking into this IF malarky after my meet this weekend. An 8 hour window is short enough to get the benefits? I might be looking at a 1-9pm to start, which would mean the end of my breakfast log posts. Sigh...

Mike ODonnell 10-22-2007 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Alston (Post 21214)
I tell ya, I am looking into this IF malarky after my meet this weekend. An 8 hour window is short enough to get the benefits? I might be looking at a 1-9pm to start, which would mean the end of my breakfast log posts. Sigh...

As far as the IF benefits to gaining mass....you can find that:
- fasting has muscle saving mechanisms...so you are not going to waste away like people probably fear
- fasting (low protein) combined with high protein (eating) windows should help to increase protein utilization....so I imagine using 95% of the protein you eat to building muscle vs 75% is a pretty good thing for muscle building

and so forth....it's not a bodybuilding type approach to gaining mass but it certainly can be done. I am sure periods of cycling carbohydrates (like high protein/low carbs weekdays and high carbs/low protein weekends) will also benefit to increasing muscle glycogen and therefore more the muscle size associated with a hypertrophy style of training.

For me it came down to feeling better and having a life. As if I do the typical 6-7 meals a day, I felt more sluggish and really lost my mind worrying about food all the time. Not to say you can not get great results that way, it just wasn't something I wanted to focus on all day. That and I tend to feel so much better on an IF type of routine and do not want to count calories...just shove in as much protein as I can and keep the fat and carbs reasonable. Seemed more enjoyable lifestyle to me even if I never get "huge"...as I had an image complex long ago in college and never want to get back into that self defeating and never ending battle with myself.

It still comes down to calories and activity level.....one has to go up and the other probably has to come down. Anyone that tells you any differently is taking hormone or anti-cortisol "supplements". Otherwise we would of had a nation of huge muscle people running around by now with all the 5x a week workout programs detailed in magazines for the last 30 years.

John Alston 10-22-2007 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell (Post 21215)
As far as the IF benefits to gaining mass....you can find that:
- fasting has muscle saving mechanisms...so you are not going to waste away like people probably fear
- fasting (low protein) combined with high protein (eating) windows should help to increase protein utilization....so I imagine using 95% of the protein you eat to building muscle vs 75% is a pretty good thing for muscle building

and so forth....it's not a bodybuilding type approach to gaining mass but it certainly can be done. I am sure periods of cycling carbohydrates (like high protein/low carbs weekdays and high carbs/low protein weekends) will also benefit to increasing muscle glycogen and therefore more the muscle size associated with a hypertrophy style of training.

It still comes down to calories and activity level.....one has to go up and the other probably has to come down. Anyone that tells you any differently is taking hormone or anti-cortisol "supplements".

I'm not looking to body build, I'm looking to C&J more and snatch more, those are the priorities. Increasing this ability while keeping lean would be the way to go. As it stands, I have about 5kg of room to the top of my current class (85kg) but I also know I could lose a few kg of body fat, too.
I guess the ideal situation would be finding myself closer to the 85 limit with a lower bf% and if this IF thing will help, so be it.
As it stands, I've been making PRs of late, both in the classical lifts and supplementary ones (back squat) without much increase (occasional decrease) on the weigh in scale. I think that might come from the unintentional cycling in of lower protein weekends from "social" pressure.

Mike ODonnell 10-22-2007 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Alston (Post 21216)
I think that might come from the unintentional cycling in of lower protein weekends from "social" pressure.

Funny....mine are completely intentional...nothing like a week of low carbs/high protein and then going out on the weekend....eating some pizza...wings.....and "beer" load with friends watching football....and then noticing you are leaner and heavier on Monday.....of course all eating within reason but I noticed a positive difference in my body composition while still able to keep my sanity not needing to bring a tupperware bowl of chicken and brocolli to the bar and sipping diet coke.

That and I'm not sure I could trust anyone that didn't drink beer! Ha....

I'm no expert but I wonder with more explosive CNS intensive lifting such as OLY, that if fasting does provide periods of rest for the nervous system (without digestion as your stomach has the most amount of nerve endings), if it does in fact give an adaptive increase in your ability to become CNS explosive through those periods of rest. Of course all guessing at that point.....but I do notice better performance in working out or sports on a completely empty stomach and with caffeine.

John Alston 10-22-2007 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell (Post 21220)
Funny....mine are completely intentional...nothing like a week of low carbs/high protein and then going out on the weekend....eating some pizza...wings.....and "beer" load with friends watching football....and then noticing you are leaner and heavier on Monday.....of course all eating within reason but I noticed a positive difference in my body composition while still able to keep my sanity not needing to bring a tupperware bowl of chicken and brocolli to the bar and sipping diet coke.

That and I'm not sure I could trust anyone that didn't drink beer! Ha....

I'm no expert but I wonder with more explosive CNS intensive lifting such as OLY, that if fasting does provide periods of rest for the nervous system (without digestion as your stomach has the most amount of nerve endings), if it does in fact give an adaptive increase in your ability to become CNS explosive through those periods of rest. Of course all guessing at that point.....but I do notice better performance in working out or sports on a completely empty stomach and with caffeine.

Hmm. My schedule only allows me to O-lift from about 6 to 8pm during the week, which would be right in the middle of my eating window. Problematic?

The heavy protein week and carb up weekend is the core of the anabolic diet, too. So maybe going soft core on both IF and the anabolic diet is kind of what you're doing, "holistically" finding a neat medium of the two, to good results.

Mike ODonnell 10-22-2007 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Alston (Post 21223)
Hmm. My schedule only allows me to O-lift from about 6 to 8pm during the week, which would be right in the middle of my eating window. Problematic?

The heavy protein week and carb up weekend is the core of the anabolic diet, too. So maybe going soft core on both IF and the anabolic diet is kind of what you're doing, "holistically" finding a neat medium of the two, to good results.

You can toy with the whole eating window things...plus IF doesn't have to be every day or even the same every day...maybe you eat 10am-4pm on lifting days....12-6pm others....play around and you will see what does and does not work.

Yeah there is the Anabolic Diet...MD diet....Body Opus Diet....etc...all this stuff been around before....but definitely there are anabolic advantages to cycles of low/high protein and carbs. Depending on your training will depend on even if you need carb ups that often or how much is really needed. If you do more glycolitic in a carb fasted state all week....then your muscle will definitely suck up all those carbs on the weekend and give that full muscle pump. Again....all depends on your goals. Cycling is definitely the way to go for results and health. I know some people are more fat adapted...not me...but although carbs are low still weekdays...but I definitely feel better after some on the weekends. Plus I mentally still could not handle being 170-175lbs (6-7% bf) even if I know I am lean and mean.....I need to at least be 185-195lbs (10% bf) to keep my level of a positive self image, happiness and sanity....just the way I am. Ironically I also feel healthier around 10% Bf...and notice once I start dipping too low I feel sicker, more allergies, less energy, etc....so hence no motivation to get that skinny.

John Alston 10-22-2007 09:41 AM

Awesome man. Thanks for the ideas on this. I'll definitely be checking into after the meet this weekend. Don't want to play around with anything too much this close to competition.


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