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-   -   Deadlifts for weightlifting (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2465)

Arien Malec 05-09-2008 11:42 AM

Deadlifts for weightlifting
 
Following on the recent dueling articles in PM and the CFJ on high bar vs low bar squats, I'd like to pose a question I've wondered about.

Rip and others argue for using max effort deadlifts to build a strength base which can be applied to speed-strength in the olympic lifts.

The weightlifting routines I've seen and been coached on prescribe clean and snatch deadlifts that

a) are only slightly in excess of the lifter's best clean/snatch
b) have movement patterns in line with the clean and snatch movements

I've got two basic questions:

1) What's the point of doing a clean deadlift at 105% of your clean vs. just doing clean pulls, which better mimic the movement patterns of the first and second pull, work directly on speed-strength, and have the same overload characteristics
2) What's so wrong with doing max effort, anything goes deadlifts to build basic strength?

John Alston 05-09-2008 11:57 AM

Well, I'd say if it's 105%, pull it.
If you can pull it with form that mimics your clean well, then I'd say pull it.

If you can't, then make it a deadlift, because you don't want to slow down your cleaning. This aversion to slow "clean pulls" is I think what drives people to avoid pulling weights a lot more than they can clean, with good reason.

Honestly, I have used very little deadlifts in my oly focused training over the last couple years. Mostly because my pulling has been relatively stronger than my pressing or squatting.
When it comes to pull phase work, I like the RDL a lot, along with surgs. Maybe I'm not the best guy to answer since I actually don't like most pulls much at all. It usually feels wrong to pull hard and not clean/snatch it.

I can't say that too much is wrong with big ass DL work. It will get you strong for sure. From my limited experience in training, and low use of the DL, I'd keep them to low volume, making sure my cleans are still snappy and in proper form.

Arden Cogar Jr. 05-09-2008 12:00 PM

Arien,
I'm a novice olympic lifter, but a very very seasoned deadlifter. In studying what I've studied since I got into oly lifting last Fall, my guess is that the answer to your first question is to "hit the groove" with slightly more than ME clean/snatch weights. More than that would slow the movement and not stimulate the neural pathways correct or not imprint the speed necessary to obtain the proper benefit from the movement.

That said, and an my novice weightlifter's take on your second question is, "go for it." I deadlift once a week and I meter/wave it with my dynamic movements. If I'm going over 75% with my dynamic movements, I dead light. If I'm under 75% with my dynamic movements, I dead heavy. I also never do the same type of dead (sumo, conventional, snatch grip, conventional clean grip, rack pull) from weekly session to weekly session to keep my body guessing on the stimulus. I have an idea when I go into the session (ie., the type of pull), but I don't really know until I get about 495 on the bar on how heavy or what rep scheme I'm going to implement that day. I never do anything less than 3 to 5 reps though. Age has brought some semblance of wisdom.

Don't know if that helps at all. But it's what I do. It's working pretty well, but I'll likely continue to lighten it up as the years go on and focus more on the technical aspect of the speed necessary for what I'm trying to accomplish.

All the best,
Arden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arien Malec (Post 30831)
Following on the recent dueling articles in PM and the CFJ on high bar vs low bar squats, I'd like to pose a question I've wondered about.

Rip and others argue for using max effort deadlifts to build a strength base which can be applied to speed-strength in the olympic lifts.

The weightlifting routines I've seen and been coached on prescribe clean and snatch deadlifts that

a) are only slightly in excess of the lifter's best clean/snatch
b) have movement patterns in line with the clean and snatch movements

I've got two basic questions:

1) What's the point of doing a clean deadlift at 105% of your clean vs. just doing clean pulls, which better mimic the movement patterns of the first and second pull, work directly on speed-strength, and have the same overload characteristics
2) What's so wrong with doing max effort, anything goes deadlifts to build basic strength?


Dave Van Skike 05-09-2008 12:11 PM

I've heard Rip extole the virtures of progressive pulls, which I have to admit I love. But I'm not a weightlifter,

I train with several guys that deadlift so explosively anything under 80% with a little shrug on it would be an above the navel hi-pull. For one of those guys in particular that's like 495-515.

John Alston 05-09-2008 12:28 PM

Arden, I like your ideas. Since my planned training is/will be 2 days oly, one "other" I might do something like that, some low volume DL.
But I just love to squat.

Arien Malec 05-09-2008 12:38 PM

Great responses.

Arden -- Since you are scary strong, I'd figure your goal is to keep your strength base and grow speed-strength and the neurological pathways to allow your weightlifting to catch up to your base strength. I'm in a different boat: I'm well below my basic strength potential, and deads are a great way of building basic strength.

John -- I'm similar to you in being stronger in the pull than in the squat (I'm an intermediate in rip's strength chart for the dead, but only a novice in the back squat and press), but not particularly strong in any.

So maybe I want to separate the question:

For someone who is lacking a strength base, is there anything wrong with adding max effort deads (doubles, triples, single sets of 5) as part of an overall weightlifting program?

I'm liking the answer "go for it" :-)

John Alston 05-09-2008 12:46 PM

Right on.
Just curious about some of our numbers across lifts. I know Arden pulls big!

My best clean (missed the jerk) is 115kg (252#), best back squat (ATG upright high bar oly style) a 300lb single, but I don't think I've pulled more than 315# off the floor before, not having tried more than that one time. I've RDL'ed 255# for sets of 5 but that was a while ago. Actually, all these numbers are more than what I could do right now. Sigh...

Arden Cogar Jr. 05-09-2008 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Alston (Post 30841)
Arden, I like your ideas. Since my planned training is/will be 2 days oly, one "other" I might do something like that, some low volume DL.
But I just love to squat.


John,
I hear you on the squats. I'm growing very fond of them myself. Moreso than in the past.

My current program has me day 1 - block snatches, ohs, snatch pulls, kettle bell presses; day 2 - event training day; 3 - squat cleans, push presses, front squats, and clean pulls; day 4 - event training day; 5 - snatches, clean and jerks, back squats, then my deadlifts; day 6 -event training. Day 7 - off or light event training.

I had to back off in recent weeks because my event training sessions were taking a lot out of me. But I've grown to love doing three different squat workouts during a week long microcyle. In the past, I'd squat once a week; and dead once a week. Since I started doing it three times a week (granted it's all metered and waved), my knees, hips, etc. feel much better and I feel fresher going into each session. I think it also helps that I keep all my reps under 5. I no longer care about hypertrophy, but if there is some I really don't mind. At this stage, I'm happy to say there is no longer any semblance of cellulite anywhere below my glorious love handles. :o Middle age has not been kind to me.

Related to this thread, in times past I would not recommend pulling more than once a week; but, in reality, the programs I've followed the past eight months, I've been pulling 3 times a week also. Just differently and metered or waved. I wish I would have learned about training like this a long time ago. It's way more athletic and less mirror-letic. That's a good thing in my book.

All the best,
Arden

Arden Cogar Jr. 05-09-2008 12:58 PM

Arien,
thanks so much f or you kind words. I'm far from scary strong, just lots of years in iron game under my belt. But you hit the nail on the head, I'm trying to grow speed strength or lessen my "speed strength deficit."

To answer your question, I think you've already answered it. Go for it. Just be mindful of the need for your body to get alternating stimulus - and not going to failure session after session. To be very frank, rack pulls, with straps, and holding the phucker for static holds is one of the best "strength potential" builders I've ever encountered. Same goes for 1/4 squats out of high pins. But only do them every two to three weeks because your body wasn't meant to undergo that much stress that often.

The big thing I've learned over the years is don't train to failure. Always leave something in the tank. And also remember to take the planned "few steps back" in order to make some gradual steps forward.

Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

All the best,
Arden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arien Malec (Post 30843)
Great responses.

Arden -- Since you are scary strong, I'd figure your goal is to keep your strength base and grow speed-strength and the neurological pathways to allow your weightlifting to catch up to your base strength. I'm in a different boat: I'm well below my basic strength potential, and deads are a great way of building basic strength.

John -- I'm similar to you in being stronger in the pull than in the squat (I'm an intermediate in rip's strength chart for the dead, but only a novice in the back squat and press), but not particularly strong in any.

So maybe I want to separate the question:

For someone who is lacking a strength base, is there anything wrong with adding max effort deads (doubles, triples, single sets of 5) as part of an overall weightlifting program?

I'm liking the answer "go for it" :-)


John Alston 05-09-2008 01:11 PM

THis is a good thread to read at the end of the week with a date with the iron only 2 hours away.

And yeah Arden, it might not be training for hypertrophy, but it's nice when it comes, and somehow, it's even better quality than the hypertrophy you get when you train for it.


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