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-   -   All of my O-lifts - Form Check (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2714)

Chris Salvato 07-15-2008 10:09 PM

All of my O-lifts - Form Check
 
Hey all,

I have been working on my form and doing SS for about a month now. I was posting my form on x-fit boards but Steve Low suggested that I post them up here. I am kind of seeing why :D

Here is a link to a vid with pretty much all my major lifts (with just a little ring work at the end..)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KbFMDpdpqs

I know there are problems with the snatch work in the Burg WU (arms too straight.

I know there are minor problems with the squat. I have been told I am leaning forward too much. I just feel that if I lean back more, or stay more upright, there is some weight transferring onto the arms, but i could be wrong.

I feel that my OH Press is pretty solid (with some minor hand positioning problems with light weight since I can get away with it).

I feel that my DL is pretty solid too. Maybe only some minor problems where my hips rise a bit before the weight moves.

I know there are technical problems with the cleans. This video shows warmup weights since i was doing this as part of some technique work, not going heavy. My current PR is 150, though I can probably physically pull more if I ignore form (which I am not trying to do). I feel that my form is good, overall, but there are definitely some technique issues that I am hoping some people here can ID for me.

I would appreciate any advice on any problems, if possible. I thank any contributors in advance :)

Chris Leach 07-15-2008 11:18 PM

Looks like you're losing back extension in the squat. Weightlifting shoes, or sliding a plate under each foot might help.

Avoid hyper-extending the neck while squatting, keep a straight line from the top of the head to the hips. Don't look in the mirror, look down into the corner.

Flex the wrists, or at least keep them neutral while keeping the bar racked in the groove. They're hyper-extending right now. Try a narrower grip, which will help tighten your upper back a bit more.

Knees look like they're moving around at the bottom, keep them out to the side. Be sure to go over how the low bar back squat feels at the bottom sans bar.

Try a slightly wider stance, and turn your toes out a little more than you think you should. Are those squishy soled shoes?

Find your "bounce."

-----

Tighten your lower body before pressing, avoid push pressing.

-----

Deadlifts and power cleans: stance and grip looks real narrow.

For setup purposes
1. Place bar over midfoot, most likely where your shoe laces are
2. Bend at hips, and get your grip set
3. Push shins into bar, without moving bar out of position
4. Big breath, and lift the chest
5. Pick up weight

Get shoes that allow for more efficient force transfer. Running shoes aren't good for that.

Chris Salvato 07-16-2008 07:04 AM

Hey thanks for the tips.

As for the shoes, I usually lift barefoot. For some reason, on that day, I forgot to take off my shoes :) But the form looks pretty similar on those days as well.

Appeciate the tips. All seem to be sound - but relatively minor and could be fixed with some cueing. The power lifts are where I am concerned the most.

Greg Everett 07-16-2008 11:06 AM

I'm not going to comment on the squat and DL because Rippetoe and I do things differently there and you're doing his thing, so keep doing it.

Burgener Warm-up

1. Slow down. Don't rush through your reps. You're wasting your time if you're not getting yourself set correctly each rep.

2. Down & Up - Relax your arms. Let the weight of the bar extend them, not your triceps. And keep pulling the bar into your body with your lats - don't let it swing forward. Most importantly - EXPLODE - your heels barely come off the platform - don't intentionally try to extend your ankles, but you're cutting off your leg drive to shrug and it's keeping you from getting enough gas on the bar. Do the first rep as an actual jump; then chill out just enough to not come off the floor (with the toes) more than a 1/4 inch or so.

3. High & Outside - don't lift the bar; lift your elbows. The bar is starting to curl up to the height of your elbows, when they should be well above it. Think of a scarecrow.

4. Muscle snatch - MOvement is pretty good, but see explode thing in #2. Also, hold it at the top for a couple seconds - how can you tell if your overhead position is any good if the second the bar gets there you drop it? (and it's out front - you need to get your shoulder blades back and up and lean the torso forward slightly).

5. Snatch drop - the point of this drill is to DROP - not kick your heels up like a Toyota commercial. Pull the feet off teh floor and move them to the receiving position as quickly as possible, landing in a quarter squat and staying there for a moment. DO NOT LIFT THE FEET any more than is necessary to move them laterally.



Clean -

1. Your grip is WAY to narrow. Give yourself AT LEAST half a hand width between the outside of your shoulder and your thumb. You're so narrow it's forcing your knees in toward each other. Get the grip out and flare the knees to the sides as much as you can without bending your arms.

2. Sorry, Chris, but DON'T put the bar over your mid-foot and set up like that. As I said, if you want to DL like that, fine, but a clean is not a DL. The bar will be over the base of your toes and your arms vertical in the start.

3. Your pull is actually pretty good. Work on changing directions at the top faster and not picking your feet up so much. Remember, the feet only move out, not up.

Jacob Rowell 07-16-2008 11:57 AM

Greg,

I'm a little curious now - why the different starting positions for the DL and clean?

I take it that with the bar closer to the toes and arms vertical, you'd wind up with a slightly more erect torso/lower hips going into the 2nd pull than if you were to start with a Rippetoe style DL. Does this just make for a better position going into the 2nd pull, or am I missing something entirely?

Greg Everett 07-16-2008 12:48 PM

Jacob -

That's exactly it - more upright torso. This is important for a few reasons, including that it will allow a better acceleration in the 2nd, and that it will reduce the work for the lower back, which is the most easily fatigued part in the chain; less fatigue in the 1st means better maintenance of extension during the second, which means better power transfer to the bar. You also get better balance on the foot, etc. That's the short version.

Chris Salvato 07-16-2008 01:34 PM

Greg,

Thanks so much.

I never learned so much about my power/technique lifts in only 1 post before.

But I do have some questions/comments based on your advice... I hope you don't mind as I am always trying to learn as much as I can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Everett (Post 34722)
I'm not going to comment on the squat and DL because Rippetoe and I do things differently there and you're doing his thing, so keep doing it.

What do you do differently from Rip? And why? My squat still needs some work, though its mostly OK, i think. I am just curious as to your take.

You don't necessarily need to explain here or link me, just let me know where I can find info on your approach if you can :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Everett (Post 34722)
2. Sorry, Chris, but DON'T put the bar over your mid-foot and set up like that. As I said, if you want to DL like that, fine, but a clean is not a DL. The bar will be over the base of your toes and your arms vertical in the start.

No apology necessary. I know it needs work...thats why I posted it. If I thought it was perfect and was posting it to fish for compliments, that would make me a pretty shitty trainee :D

I'll try your technique.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Everett (Post 34722)
3. Your pull is actually pretty good. Work on changing directions at the top faster and not picking your feet up so much. Remember, the feet only move out, not up.

Thanks! i have actually been getting a lot of shit from someone on my pull. They have been telling me to give up cleaning all together because it sucks so bad. While i didn't believe them, having you say that it is good totally negates that point all together, since you clearly have more experience.

Once again, I really appreciate everyone's help and input!

Greg Everett 07-16-2008 04:43 PM

Rip wants to set up with scap spines over bar, whereas i want to break from the floor as upright as possible. With my setup (and I shouldn't call it mine, it's used by essentially every high-level competitive weightlifter out there), the back angle will shift slightly by the time the bar lifts about 2-3 inches, but it will still remain considerably more upright. I approach the DL more as an assistance exercise for the snatch and clean, and accordingly, I want it to use the same positions, whereas Rip uses it more as simply a tool to get generally strong. As far as why on the cln/sn start position, see my response to jacob.

Same goes for the back squat - he uses the low-bar even for Oly lifters. For most athletes, I agree that low-bar is good, at least some of the time, but for Oly, I use high bar. Complete article about why in the store somewhere, and you can read his argument in the CFJ from the same month.

When I said Sorry Chris, I actually meant the other Chris who made the mid-foot suggestion - I didn't notice you two had the same name.

Judging from the limited view of the gym in that video, I'd suggest ignoring any advice you get there regarding weightlifting.

Chris Salvato 07-16-2008 07:02 PM

Thanks for the responses Greg. Replies below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Everett (Post 34734)
Rip wants to set up with scap spines over bar, whereas i want to break from the floor as upright as possible. With my setup (and I shouldn't call it mine, it's used by essentially every high-level competitive weightlifter out there), the back angle will shift slightly by the time the bar lifts about 2-3 inches, but it will still remain considerably more upright. I approach the DL more as an assistance exercise for the snatch and clean, and accordingly, I want it to use the same positions, whereas Rip uses it more as simply a tool to get generally strong. As far as why on the cln/sn start position, see my response to jacob.

That makes a lot of sense. While I am getting my strength and DL numbers up, I am going to be using this to get my absolute strength up. I will probably stick to Rip's method until I advance onto taking my fast lifts more seriously - after I top out on my linear progression, that is.

Then I may consider switching over to the fast lift method (at least thats what I'll call it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Everett (Post 34734)
Same goes for the back squat - he uses the low-bar even for Oly lifters. For most athletes, I agree that low-bar is good, at least some of the time, but for Oly, I use high bar. Complete article about why in the store somewhere, and you can read his argument in the CFJ from the same month.

That's I'll look for that. Steve Low actually said that my squat form looks like it's not low bar, though i am pretty sure it is as I feel like the bar is resting just above mid scap, right around the scap spine.

I feel like I may be leaning forward too much so its something I am always consciously trying to correct.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Everett (Post 34734)
Judging from the limited view of the gym in that video, I'd suggest ignoring any advice you get there regarding weightlifting.

haha. Actually no one in my globo speaks to me. I think they are scared because I make a lot of noise in the gym (i edit out my stomping that i do to get psyched up) :P

Every time i post a video of my cleans on youtube, this guy sends me messages about how my cleans suck. This is pretty funny since you said my second pull is good.....

He is just a grifeer but here is what he sent me last time:

Quote:

Your form just keeps getting worse and worse by the video. I am pressed to say that I feel you are not even pulling the weight with your arms anymore, you're bringing your knees through and using your legs to push up against the barbell; once again attempting to consciously apply the double knee bend and slowing your lift down considerably. Now I know that I may have been playfully fucking with you a few days ago but I am serious when I say that this has gone beyond retarded. You are in the most important learning stage of these lifts; the beginning, and you are learning them entirely incorrectly and will only find it that much more difficult to learn them correctly should you ever decide to try in the next year or five. Perhaps you should stop doing cleans for reps, since it's obviously what is taking a toll on your ability to pull the bar correctly and get under it safely. You should maybe start out doing 4-5 reps with the lighter weights and keeping it under triples or doubles once you progress to anything over 135ibs. I assure you that you will have absolutely no athletic gains by doing this movement that you call a "power clean", and certainly not in the manner in which you have decided to employ it. You may want to consider removing them from your routine and supplementing them with barbell squat jumps or something a little more sport-specific, as that would not be nearly as demanding as the power clean in terms of technique. I do not understand what business you have doing power cleans.
Your post has really made me much more confident in my form.

Chris Leach 07-16-2008 10:43 PM

Having the bar start over the mid-foot during the snatch and clean has worked extremely well for me. I also widened my stance and turned the toes out some, as suggested by Rip, and I've seen great results from doing so.

My coach has everyone else pull from the floor as you suggest, but has told me that "Rip's method" works great for me. My numbers are going up, so I'll keep using it.


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