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-   -   De Vany and insulin 'sunburn'? (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3673)

Gaspard Winckler 01-15-2009 10:10 PM

De Vany and insulin 'sunburn'?
 
Thanks for all the free advice I have obtained from this forum!

Art De Vany says:

"Insulin spikes, particularly large ones, kill more receptors or damage or downturn or down-regulate receptor sensitivity more than does a lower but chronic amount. It's like life is built up with lots of shocks, and the big shocks will be the huge print on your genetic composition and your gene expression and on your hormone profiles and the sensitivities to those hormones.

So, for example, a transitory shock of insulin after a Thanksgiving meal, followed by a good dessert and maybe preceded by wine and followed by a liquor, that mark's left on your metabolism for a very long time."

Is this supported in any way scientifically? If true, it would seem to speak against a 5 day, 2 day split of paleo IF and more relaxed weekend eating. Intuitively the idea of receptor 'killing' doesn't ring true for me at all, though. Recovery from too much 'social eating/ drinking' seems fairly fast on a 5/2 cycle.

Mike ODonnell 01-16-2009 08:07 AM

He's downplaying the role that the body has in regenerating and healing itself with IF. Not sure there is any real research to back it up nor deny his claims though (or at least I have not come across any). You could go back to the old Mattson 1meal vs 3 meal study with IF and how 1 meal a day people had higher fasting am insulin...but there are flaws to that as they had complete "carb bomb" meals once a day and then only took fasting insulin in the AM....where later in the day it probably would have been lower. Not a perfect study but does shed some light on at least trying to eat moderate and more often than 1x a day.

I don't eat like it's Thanksgiving on a daily basis or weekly basis...so not sure that's a great comparison. One should be able to tell what is or is not working....as if you increase insulin resistance then you will see more "fat" gain vs loss...if you are leaning out then I guess it's not as damaging as he states. Only other way would be to monitor fasting insulin.

Since exercise also increases insulin sensitivity, the results may differ when talking about sedentary individuals vs active ones. Too many variables to consider.

Comes down to the same saying....IFOC (IF on Crap) isn't a good idea.

Gaspard Winckler 01-16-2009 10:49 AM

Thanks Mike, it seemed a bit too much of an 'alcohol kills brain cells' type statement, and the counter evidence is all the people doing a variety of IF/ Paleo/ Zone with cheat days and no ill effects.

Jeremy Shepard 01-16-2009 12:12 PM

His new hard-on against good eating is theoretical epigenetic transmission of the damage to your offspring, which he pulled right out of his ass. I'm fairly convinced a large portion of his posts come from there, though.

Seriously, if my kids can't handle my cheesecake addiction, screw 'em. They'll just have to lift a little harder.

Patrick Yeung 01-16-2009 06:34 PM

I remember an article on the NY Times with a title saying something like... "One hamburger can ruin a month's worth of dieting"

But, their whole thing was that, once you ate it, or other junk food, the resulting insulin spike would cause you to be hungry/crave again. And, then the cycle starts. A slippery slope if you ask me.

It sounds similar to what Art is saying, just not so much savvy jargon. I think both dont take into mind that some of us are disciplined and can work through pain and a little hunger...

Besides, if either were true, then how could anyone diet? I mean, didnt we all used to eat all that junk? I know I used to eat it every meal, am I lost forever?

Mike ODonnell 01-17-2009 05:57 AM

If one bad night of eating and drinking with a big insulin spike ruins your cells for a lifetime.....I should be about 500lbs right now after all the damage from college.

Joyce Behrendt 01-17-2009 11:32 AM

Speaking as a type 2 diabetic, I have read lots of books and articles that support what DeVany says. He has also said that many body builders are giving themselves diabetes.

Hyperinsulinemia is hypothesized to be the root cause for the epidemic of metabolic syndrome which is one or more of: obesity, diabetes, hypertension, low HDL/high triglycerides. Protein Power Lifeplan is one book that goes into some detail that is fairly understandable.

If you consider that high blood sugar precedes the insulin spike then yes, there is permanent damage. Do some searches on glycosylation. The spikes are what cause the most damage to the eyes and toes. You are cooking yourself. The damage is insidious -- it builds up in small increments over time. Of course, the less often you have your Thanksgiving meal, then the less damage. Up until my 40's, I ate foods like candy, ice cream, bread, pasta, potatoes every day.

It's hard for me at the moment to separate what damage comes from the high insulin levels vs the high blood sugar. But as I say, they are both bad and appear together. I tried to search around pubmed and elsewhere to find an article for you, but I keep getting sidetracked reading all the articles. But you can search on things like "postprandial" and "insulinemia".

I first 'met' Robb Wolf on Dr. Mikes blog about IF. I have been intrigued that IF can help regenerate red blood cells. So that is why I do it.

Mike ODonnell 01-17-2009 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyce Behrendt (Post 47918)
Speaking as a type 2 diabetic, I have read lots of books and articles that support what DeVany says. He has also said that many body builders are giving themselves diabetes.

BB tend to load up on sugar drinks and other higher carb strategies on a regular basis....so I think there is a big difference when looking at "chronic" large abusive insulin spikes vs infrequent ones that "supposedly" scar us for life (which is the way DeVany describes it). When in doubt one can get their fasting insulin tested and see what is going on with them.


Quote:

I first 'met' Robb Wolf on Dr. Mikes blog about IF. I have been intrigued that IF can help regenerate red blood cells. So that is why I do it.
Unless you are talking about Dr Mike Eades above...this Mike not a Dr...I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. ;)

Patrick Yeung 01-17-2009 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyce Behrendt (Post 47918)
If you consider that high blood sugar precedes the insulin spike then yes, there is permanent damage. Do some searches on glycosylation. The spikes are what cause the most damage to the eyes and toes. You are cooking yourself. The damage is insidious -- it builds up in small increments over time. Of course, the less often you have your Thanksgiving meal, then the less damage. Up until my 40's, I ate foods like candy, ice cream, bread, pasta, potatoes every day.

This is very true for those who have untreated type 2 diabities. Those who are untreated, and contiune to release insulin will damage and eventually kill all those beautiful very sensitive nerve endings in your feet, didnt know about the eyes.

However, this isnt the case for a single incident, especially in someone who isnt diabetic.

Besides, if you read too much into things, everything kills us. Microwaves, smog, red meat, etc etc.

Moderation.
Moderation.
Moderation.


But like Mike said, BB are probably some of the worst people to compare. I would not consider their life style very healthy at all even though they are working out and low bf or whatever.

Mike ODonnell 01-18-2009 08:26 AM

Interesting find here.....not to say that eating sugar is not damaging....

Quote:

Genes remember sugar hit: Australian research
Fri Jan 16, 1:20 pm ET

SYDNEY (AFP) Human genes remember a sugar hit for two weeks, with prolonged poor eating habits capable of permanently altering DNA, Australian research has found.

A team studying the impact of diet on human heart tissue and mice found that cells showed the effects of a one-off sugar hit for a fortnight, by switching off genetic controls designed to protect the body against diabetes and heart disease.

"We now know that chocolate bar you had this morning can have very acute effects, and those effects can continue for up to two weeks," said lead researcher Sam El-Osta, from the Baker IDI Heart and Diabetes Institute.

"These changes continue beyond the meal itself and have the ability to alter natural metabolic responses to diet," he told Australian Associated Press Friday.

Regular poor eating would amplify the effect, said El-Osta, with genetic damage lasting months or years, and potentially passing through bloodlines.

The study's findings were reported in the Journal of Experimental Medicine.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090116...ageneticssugar
Which still goes back to chronic high blood sugar can cause long term damage...but the body can still recover (if the person does not continue down the road of persistent hyperglycemia)


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