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-   -   Question on programming (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3786)

Howard Wilcox 02-02-2009 07:48 PM

Question on programming
 
Hello,

In looking at the olympic-based WODs both here and at Mike's gym...there seems to be little pressing work. Several times a week there are squat variation, typically front and back...but very rarely is there dedicated press work (ohp, push-press, push-jerk, perhaps even bench though I guess that would be unusual).

That said, the strength cycles on this site seem to have a fair amount of pressing work...but it mostly goes away with the bulgarian work.

Does this mean that the volume of jerking is sufficient to increase (or at least maintain) the pressing strength? I would assume so??

I didn't look very far back into Coach B's WODs, so I'm not sure if how much he incorporates it.

But my impression is that there is quite a lot of squatting but little press work.

Can someone provide insight on why this is (perhaps the strength involved in the jerk is rarely the limiting factor??)?

Thanks,

howard

Steven Low 02-02-2009 09:47 PM

If pressing is your weakness... add some pressing work!

Howard Wilcox 02-03-2009 05:35 AM

My weakness is all around weakness. :D

But I'm more curious about the programming I typically see for olympic work.


howard

Ben Shechet 02-03-2009 10:05 AM

The purpose of the Olympic-based cycles on these sites is to increase your snatch and clean and jerk. Period. While various types of pressing do exert an effect on the strength and stability of the shoulder joint in the jerk, the way you get better at the jerk is by doing it.

You get no points at a meet for having a big press.

*edit* Leg drive, proper technique, and speed of the split are all arguably more important in the jerk than brute pressing strength.

Arden Cogar Jr. 02-03-2009 11:47 AM

Agreed with Ben.

The goal is to increase the Snatch and Clean and Jerk. To that end, all programs for competitive weightlifters have that in mind.

I don't consider myself a competitive weightlifter, even though I will do one OLY meet a year with my daughters. They will do 3 to 4, but I will only do 1. I have my sport and I use the olympic lifts as part of my training to increase my speed and athleticism (in addition to my sport specific movements, GPP, etc).

That said, I find that I do some form of squat, some form of pull, and some form of overhead up to 4 days a week off season and three days a week in season (on non competitive weeks - on competitive weeks, only two weight training sessions are had).

My weight training sessions begin with dynamic movements (squat snatch, squat clean, or squat clean and jerk). Then progress to movements that support those dynamic movement (Behind the Neck Overhead press, push press, and muscle cleans and push press). Then progress to dynamic supportive movements (snatch pulls, clean pulls, and RDLs). Then progess to strength supportive movements (Overhead squats, front squats, and back squats). Then progress to general strength supportive movements (deadlifts, kettlebell presses, and dead stop overhead or front squats). All my weight training sessions end with some form of ab movement.

The programming is waved on percentages. My macro cycles last between 10 and 12 weeks.

hope that helps? don't know if it answers your question or not?

All the best,
Arden

Howard Wilcox 02-03-2009 01:07 PM

But you don't get extra kudos for a big squat either, yet that is nearly always in there??

So, I would assume that pressing strength is rarely the weak link (pardon the pun) whereas squat, maybe?


Arden, your routine seems more like what I would expect and because of that is why I asked the question.

As an aside, I've read several of your posts about your daughters lifting. I love it and hope my girls move in that direction as they get older too (8, 7, 5). In some ways I fear they day they ask for a Werksan bar...but in reality you wouldn't be able to remove the smile from my face in such a situation.

Thanks,

howard

Arden Cogar Jr. 02-03-2009 01:29 PM

Howard,
Thanks for the kind words. I'm getting closer to getting that Werksan bar by the day. :D

To answer your question, the over goal in the weightlifting routines is to increase the snatch and clean and jerk. You do that by cyling or waving the percentages used from week to week (for example 70% week 1, 75% week 2, 65% week 3, 80% week 4, etc.). As the percentage of weight moves up, the number of repetitions per set goes down. The total number of repetitions per week also vary depending upon the workload.

With that said, that percentage of weight moved also applies to the squat and other movements in the program. So not only are you cycling the weights in the C&J and snatch, but you're also doing it with the secondary, tertiary, and other movements.

It's all part of a program geared toward getting stronger. Not only in the desired movements. But also overall in general. If you can't front squat a weight you're trying to clean, why would you try to clean it. Same with a snatch and an overhead squat - and other such supportive movements (drop snatches, etc.).

Hope that helps?

All the best,
ARden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Wilcox (Post 49430)
But you don't get extra kudos for a big squat either, yet that is nearly always in there??

So, I would assume that pressing strength is rarely the weak link (pardon the pun) whereas squat, maybe?


Arden, your routine seems more like what I would expect and because of that is why I asked the question.

As an aside, I've read several of your posts about your daughters lifting. I love it and hope my girls move in that direction as they get older too (8, 7, 5). In some ways I fear they day they ask for a Werksan bar...but in reality you wouldn't be able to remove the smile from my face in such a situation.

Thanks,

howard


Ben Shechet 02-03-2009 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Wilcox (Post 49430)
But you don't get extra kudos for a big squat either, yet that is nearly always in there??

So, I would assume that pressing strength is rarely the weak link (pardon the pun) whereas squat, maybe?


Arden, your routine seems more like what I would expect and because of that is why I asked the question.

As an aside, I've read several of your posts about your daughters lifting. I love it and hope my girls move in that direction as they get older too (8, 7, 5). In some ways I fear they day they ask for a Werksan bar...but in reality you wouldn't be able to remove the smile from my face in such a situation.

Thanks,

howard

Howard,
the difference is that leg strength in the pull and the recovery from the squat position in both the snatch and the clean is naturally dependent upon one's leg strength, as acquired via back and front squatting.

The jerk, despite its outward appearances, is NOT a quick press. Watching most top-level lifters, the initial leg drive in the jerk (out of the dip) usually takes the bar to approximately the top of the lifter's head. The rest of the lockout is accomplished not by pushing the bar UP, but by aggressively splitting the legs (or dropping into a quarter or full squat, depending upon your style of jerk). In both cases, the lifter is pushing him/herself DOWN under the bar, UNSUPPORTED by the floor, which renders the effects of pressing relatively moot. Like I said, pressing can be very useful for increasing the strength and stability of the shoulder joint, but it is not productive to conceptualize the press as being an integral part of the jerk, which is primarily a product of leg drive and fast, precise movement under the bar.

Howard Wilcox 02-04-2009 05:41 AM

Ah, ok...that's a pretty good explanation.

Thanks,

howard

Howard Wilcox 02-04-2009 06:07 AM

Ah, ok...that's a pretty good explanation.

Thanks,

howard


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