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-   -   Mel Siff on Shoulder Dislocates (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3869)

Donald Lee 02-14-2009 01:22 AM

Mel Siff on Shoulder Dislocates
 
Since we all seem to love the shoulder dislocates, I thought this might be of interest to us:

Quote:

Rosemary Vernon:

< BTW, I had mentioned shoulder dislocates in a prior post. Pavel recommends
using a bungee cord rather than a dowel. Not a bad idea. Every golfer has a
bungee cord; they're used to strap their bag full of clubs into the cart.>


**Note that dislocates can also traumatise the shoulder joint and it is
essential that the different ways of "dislocating" the shoulder are
understood. The word "dislocates" provides a clue as to the less desirable
way of executing this allegedly appropriate stretching manoeuvre for the
shoulder joints, because dislocation of the shoulder refers clinically to the
passive forcing of a joint beyond its normal range of active movement,
usually resulting in damage to the joint capsule and ligaments.


If you insist on using "dislocates" as a form of shoulder "stretching", then
it is vital to note that it is far better to develop flexibility-strength
throughout one's entire functional range rather than simply to enhance one's
flexibility or rage of movement. Thus, if you are using a broomstick, towel
or bungy cord, do not simply allow the arms to "flop" or jerk uncomfortably
passively backwards as is commonly the case, because you would then be
executing just the sort of passive external rotation of the rotator cuff
muscles which can lead to injury or damage to the capsule, ligaments and
muscles associated with the shoulder joint. The shoulders really don't
"like" that sort of movement unless you are very well conditioned or
genetically endowed to execute it in that manner. When you "dislocate", push
strongly against the broomstick and exert steady outward force to pull the
stick or bungy apart.


However, a far better way of enhancing 'functional' shoulder flexibility and
strength is to use a hi-low pulley machine to do standing cable crossovers
from a full crucifix position (back to the machine) with your body arched
backwards to a fully crunched over final position. Next you execute reverse
cable crossovers facing the machine - start from the lowest crunched position
and end with hands overhead in the crucifix position.


You can also do these movements with one arm at a time to execute the age-old
physio PNF 'chopping' and the 'sword-drawing' actions across the midline of
the body (now don't let any gurus out there create the impression that they
invented these exercises, because they have been in the PNF 'bible" for over
40 years!). Novices and older folk tend to prefer to start with these
variations before moving onto the more stressful bilateral patterns.
These patterns are fully illustrated in Ch 7 of "Supertraining" 2003.


Finally, overhead squats (elbows locked strongly!) with the bar and
progressively heavier weights can safely enhance shoulder strength and
flexibility (a few sets of no more than 3 reps per set is adequate). Begin
with hands very wide apart and very gradually bring your hands in if you
really want to increase shoulder flexibility-strength (yes, yes, you can do
some work on the gymnastic rings or parallel bars, but let's leave that issue
until later!)


Note that a broomstick doesn't offer enough loading to challenge the
shoulders in the overhead position, nor does it stimulate various protective
reflexes (which is a major reason why passive dislocates can be potentially
harmful to the shoulders). Thus, paradoxical as it may seem, it is generally
safer to do overhead squats (even over a limited range) with a load than it
is to do unloaded dislocates, unless you really know how to execute safe and
effective dislocates


Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA

Garrett Smith 02-14-2009 12:52 PM

Returning the bar back over the head is a bad idea IMO.

That was taught to me by Dr. Borden, a Senior USAW coach and DPT (Doctorate of Physical Therapy). I've come to strongly agree.

Steven Low 02-14-2009 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrett Smith (Post 50562)
Returning the bar back over the head is a bad idea IMO.

That was taught to me by Dr. Borden, a Senior USAW coach and DPT (Doctorate of Physical Therapy). I've come to strongly agree.

I agree.

I don't like the "going back" dislocate.. never have. It just "feels" off or weird.

---------------

Also, thanks for the post Donald.

I personally advocate band dislocates... I don't like the bar ones at all. Locks the shoulder/arms in to an awkward position.

Siff does point out an interesting alternative though. Although I personally prefer just swinging on rings, skin the cats, etc. :D

Donald Lee 02-14-2009 01:11 PM

I have always done the dislocates with a stick, but I guess I should purchase a bungee cord or something of the sort. Would a bungee cord be a safe alternative to the band?

Should dislocates with the stick have always felt awkward for me as well, especially on the coming back part. I don't really understand Siff's pulley stretch, especially the second one, but I have come to believe that stretching without strengthening the muscles in the elongated positions is not optimal for either flexibility or injury prevention.

Blair Lowe 02-14-2009 11:36 PM

A simple martial arts belt or rope has a bit of give in them and a towel can work or a pool noodle.

The inlocate is sort of necessary for front giant, or swinging in eagle grip. Yes, gymnastics asks for more flexibility than is necessary when it comes to shoulders, especially on rings or HB. Either do it or don't really.

I think with the very inflexible, we simply have to grind those tight muscles out. One of my boy's is very inflexible in his shoulders and it depreciates his tumbling potential. His basics suck and while this poor flexibility doesn't hamper him on rings, it does on High Bar and for back and front tumbling. Were going through a lot of shoulder mobility but he may also be further helped by going to an ART practitioner. He's not 10 yet, so he still has a good chance of developing flexibility but it's gonna be slow. As well he has poor flexibility in his legs as well. At least he is beastly strong for a lil guy ( 52 pounds ).

Otoh, I have another boy who can do dislocates at shoulder width. He can hang on rings and inlocate in or dislocate out from the bottom of a skin the cat with no pain. In his case, especially when training the ring inlocate he will need to do band dislocates. As well he never feels anything in the shoulder mobility we do compared to the other guy who is nearly in tears ( like me! ). It's almost pointless but as he is getting stronger we will need to keep that flexibility since it is what his potential for many skills quite awesome ( as weak as he is, presses are not a problem though he is barely strong enough to hold a straddle L ).

Garrett Smith 02-15-2009 07:40 AM

The more I do dislocates, the more I want to find something else (mainly talking about the PVC ones).

I like DB Cuban Presses and Coach Sommer's wall extensions for external rotation stuff, for the OHS just do more OHS...

Steven Low 02-15-2009 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald Lee (Post 50566)
I have always done the dislocates with a stick, but I guess I should purchase a bungee cord or something of the sort. Would a bungee cord be a safe alternative to the band?

Should dislocates with the stick have always felt awkward for me as well, especially on the coming back part. I don't really understand Siff's pulley stretch, especially the second one, but I have come to believe that stretching without strengthening the muscles in the elongated positions is not optimal for either flexibility or injury prevention.

Bungee cord, therabands, anything really that gives resistance as it stretches works pretty well.

Coming back = no no as far as I'm concerned (as previously stated :D).

Aaron Gainer 02-15-2009 06:03 PM

So do these statements apply to a resistance band or a towel? I find the pvc method coming back overhead to be a bit stressful. Therefore, I usually bend my elbows, come back, then do straight arm behind head again.

Blair Lowe 02-15-2009 06:58 PM

Shrug the shoulders up in my opinion on the way back similar to how you take it over. That helps it clear the shoulder.

As for theraband, as much as I liked using it for shoulder dislocates/inlocates, the stuff snaps and breaks way too often. I've snapped literally at least a dozen pieces. Bungee cords are strong. Jump ropes have just a bit of give.

I've had my boys working the wall slides/extensions for awhile and MuscleMan has a lot of problem with these. We add a static hold at the top of the ROM. I recently found a pair of small DB at the gym so I having him add cuban presses to his post workout stretching followed by wall slides and cat stretch. He is already very flexible ( in fact that is the only ROM he has flexibility in ) in skin the cat stretch/shoulder flexion/extension ( sit on butt, hands behind oneself and extend out and away as much as possible ).

Steven Low 02-15-2009 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Gainer (Post 50667)
So do these statements apply to a resistance band or a towel? I find the pvc method coming back overhead to be a bit stressful. Therefore, I usually bend my elbows, come back, then do straight arm behind head again.

Dude, we just talk about bands.... for like 5 posts in a row.


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