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-   -   BJJ/MMA + Gymnastics (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5290)

Donald Lee 03-27-2010 09:33 PM

BJJ/MMA + Gymnastics
Did anybody just watch Dan Hardy and think gymnastics could definitely help with not tapping to submissions to the arm?

You'll have great shoulder girdle flexibility, strength in awkward positions, and strong elbow tendons.

Grissim Connery 03-29-2010 01:43 AM

as we were watching, none of us thought that it was anything dan hardy really did right. we thought it was more that GSP was too nice. if he had reset and kept it tighter, i don't think the same thing would have happened.

I generally believe that when somebody can handle a really tight joint lock past average parameters, it's probably something very natural/genetic with their body, and i don't think people can train their body to handle the same submission stretches like other people. on the specific subject of the arm bar, it seems especially wrong because, assuming that all other joints were held constand, the elbow would be the only joint to take the pressure. i'm not sure how probable it is for most people to have naturally hyperextendable elbows, but it doesn't seem great.

when dan hardy was escaping, i believe he did the hitch-hiker escape, but i can't really remember right now. this would allow him to take use his shoulder flexibility to take pressure off the arm-bar, but theoretically speaking, if the armbar had been perfect, this escape would not have worked. therefore, shoulder flexibility would not have mattered.

it's kinda like saying "if we deadlift a lot, then we can escape triangles better." now if somebody does a bad triangle, then your deadlift strength could probably help a good deal in that situation. but if somebody does a good triangle, then you're probably not going to get the opportunity to straighten your spine out during the submission. therefore, your deadlift strength will go to shit.

Donald Lee 03-29-2010 10:04 AM

I was thinking about the armbar later, and I think GSP had a technique flaw, although I wouldn't have the background to be able to spot it per se. The pressure in a armbar is supposed to be on the elbow, but Dan Hardy's shoulder was pulled way back, which probably relieved a lot of the elbow pressure.

What do you think about the way GSP did the kimura?

Grissim Connery 03-29-2010 11:43 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 258


if you scroll down in that link, you can see an animated GIF of the armbar. i've also attached a picture of the kimura.

The kimura looks scary cause it's pretty far back. the problem though was the angle. it's hard to tell from the picture though, but i remember from watching that the elbow was at an obtuse angle. to get the proper tap, you need it to be about at about 90 degrees, but i think 80 actually is better. when the arm is straighter, a lot of guys can muscle out of the kimura or just resist it with brute strength.

i found these pictures on some forums. in the process, i noticed that there's a billion threads on the matter right now. i was giving GSP the benefit of the doubt that he was being nice, but a lot of people are just straight up saying he was sloppy.

if you look at the pic, his knees are splayed way wide because his feet are crossed. now a basic rule you learn early on is never to cross your feet while you do an armbar because it relieves pressure from the arm, gives slack to the shoulder so that it can take a stretch, and removes weight from the other guy's body so that he can move around/escape.

now this is a great rule early on to follow, but later on there definitely are times to cross your legs while doing an arm bar. it's very situational when you need to, and i can't really describe when; it's more a matter of feeling. the truth of the matter though is that when you do cross your legs during an armbar, 9 times out of 10 it's just to hold the position, not to finish. most all the time when you finish the armbar, your legs should be straight. if possible, i like to flair my feet out as i pinch my knees together (kinda pigeon toeing). this gives an extra little grab at the arm, but its not often that you can get that based on your proportions and the other guy's.

the last bit i'll say is that he was "playing the slot machine." when you take a good armbar, you glue the guy's wrist to your chest before you sit back. you never let the arm come off your chest as you go down. a bad technique is to sit back, then pull the guys wrist to your chest to finish, like you're pulling the lever on a slot machine. if you test this out and do it right, you'll notice that the guy taps way before your reach the ground if you keep his arm glued tight to your chest. this is because as you drop, your torso naturally levitates up a bit. this causes your hips to float up and pressure his arm very quickly.

a side reason that playing the slot machine is bad is because you'll more frequently have the problem of pulling his arm into your junk. some guys wear a cup because they think that solves the problem when really the armbar was just bad. if you pinch your knees tight and get the arm tight before you go down, then it won't slide down into your junk.

on a side note, i hate when dudes purposefully pressure their cups into your arm or whatever to cause pain. this normally causes the "....oh really..." moment before you have to turn it up on the guy.

Pat Janes 03-29-2010 03:48 PM


Originally Posted by Grissim Connery (Post 73503)
if you look at the pic, his knees are splayed way wide because his feet are crossed. now a basic rule you learn early on is never to cross your feet while you do an armbar because it relieves pressure from the arm, gives slack to the shoulder so that it can take a stretch, and removes weight from the other guy's body so that he can move around/escape.

he was crossing his ankles when he got hardy's back too and got the hooks in... while it's easy for me to say (as a very low level bjj practitioner), it's another big no-no.

as for the armbar... I can't armbar my son, lachie without pin-point perfect technique. he's hyper-flexible in the shoulder, mildly hyper-extensible in the elbow and can just plain take a lot of pain. I'm pretty sure you'd have to hurt him to muscle an armbar to submission...

Derek Simonds 03-31-2010 07:18 AM

Everyone is talking about the missed subs by GSP so I am definitely going to catch this fight sometime. Grissim is dead on about the armbar. I hate guys that intentionally use their cup, a good BJJ player can escape if you play the slot machine and the technique I use is I grab my own shoulder in MMA and No Gi when falling back for the armbar. I get taps before I hit the ground as well.

The kimura is a submission of inches and angles (I guess all subs are to some degree). Hip out a little and it is a different feel. Bend the elbow a little more and it is different. But once it is in the right position I have never been able to muscle out of one. It always seems that we do kimura practice on days when I work my shoulders, not sure why that is :D .

Grissim Connery 04-01-2010 09:27 AM


Originally Posted by Derek Simonds (Post 73604)
The kimura is a submission of inches and angles (I guess all subs are to some degree).

yeah this is like the difference between knowing a submission and knowing OF a submission. it's like when you do a triangle and you feel the inside tendon of your hamstring touch their neck. i normally transition all triangles to oma platas unless i feel this.

i actually like kimura practice work after my shoulders are sore. it can be the best stretch if you're partner already knows what they're doing.

Joe Hart 05-04-2010 05:46 PM

So back to gymnastics and MMA (wrestling).


Brandon Paulson is talking about the reasons they do gymnastic drills during thier practices and what they drills they do.

It is interesting.

Kind of wish I was a little kid. The school Brandon runs is right around the corner from me.

Its a nice little gym too.

Grissim Connery 05-04-2010 11:03 PM

that's some cool stuff. i find the variations with headstands interesting. in wrestling this is a lot more beneficial. maybe i should try using my head and neck strength more for bjj, but then my ears would look like that coach's.

that's the easiest way to tell if a move is wrestlerish-if your ears hurt after you do it...

Derek Simonds 05-05-2010 02:17 PM

Good point Grissim. I have been working neck strength a lot with bridges and I am using my head much more in BJJ, controlling in side control, passing with arms in armpits and head on solar plexus and basing in mount all have been easier.

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