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-   -   Help with Programming (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5926)

Joshua Straiton 12-09-2010 10:47 AM

Help with Programming
 
Hello all,
This is going to be a long post, but my first post on here so I'm trying to get it right.
Let me just preface this post with the fact I love olympic weightlifting, and if doing hardcore O-lifting training didn't aggravate an old injury(lower vertebrae stress fracture), I would be training olympic lifting full time.

For some reason, crossfit style training causes zero aggravation in my back. So, I am currently training with intentions to compete in the crossfit games. I understand that crossfit as a methodology is sometimes discouraged here, but I do enjoy it and I think that crossfit as a sport has some interesting implications.

Now that that is out of the way, I have a question about my programming. I just finished a cycle with an insane amount of volume, but I indeed was making serious progress and strength gains, along with lowering my times in WODs. It looked like this:

Sunday: Morning-Heavy Deadlift wod
Evening-Mainsite wod

Monday: Morning- Mainsite wod
Evening- Two WOD's programmed around my weaknesses

Tuesday: Morning- Olympic Lifting, 5-3-1 Back Squats
Evening-Crossfit mainsite wod, then two short wods after five minutes rest, skill work

Wednesday: Morning- Mainsite WOD
Evening- Two self programmed WODs, interval rowing/running

Thursday-Rest/mobility

Friday- Morning- Max Snatch/Clean and jerk, 5-3-1 deadlift, then short crossfit wod
Evening- Fun outside WOD with logs or tree climbing ect

So I understand this is alot of volume, but it worked for me, I have been keeping it up for two months without injury, but I decided to do a deloading cycle to focus on strength. I am following the performance menu workouts, and it is insane how quickly my speed has increased with the olympic lifts. I'm not mentally drained, and I am enjoying the 9 week squats cycle programmed on the cite so far.

All of that to get to my question, I want to program Olympic lifting every day for my next cycle, in other words i want to continue following catalyst athletics but I also want to program ten crossfit WODs a week and am having trouble fitting it all together. I know it is a ridiculous amount of volume, but as long as i see progress there is no reason the change. Any suggestions on how to separate this sort of strength everyday focused program while training five days a week with room for interval training(my weakness) and alot(maybe too much) crossfit?

If you need more info on recovery habits/nutrition/stats just ask.

Andrew Wilson 12-09-2010 04:13 PM

This is very interesting.
I would argue the following based on my modal analytical scientific assertions displayed in "Just Reread the CrossFit Journal on Metabolic Conditioning".
And taking and a look at the CrossFit Games format, it is always
1) some kind of hip extension strength, whether static or explosive, being snatch, CJ, deadlift, an overhead squat, air squat, sprint, burpee
2) a heavy design of pullups and muscle ups and rope climbs
3) random use of pushups or handstand push ups
4) they're going to add a pool (someone's going to shallow water black out)

So with this said, I would dare to say, that you could prepare for the Games without doing a single "WOD" at all between then and now, because it actually be a limiting factor in restorative adaptation. How dare I just say that. I would argue that a sportsman with a very powerful vertical jump, strong squat, strong technique in CJ & SN, with great local muscular endurance in pullups and pushups, with a well established VO2max that transitioned into middle distance track interval work; that all of these training effects would positively carry over into a greater WOD performance than 10 WODs per week. That would be very very interesting. So I would commend that you are on the right track with OL, and I throw out there that OL + 400m or 800m track work + pullups and pushups would have a much much more positive effect than doing the WODs... hmm or quite possibly do a decathlon program if interested. That would be a fascinating quasi case study

Joshua Straiton 12-09-2010 04:24 PM

Interesting Andrew. I like the idea, and it would be a great experiment that I would love to test out with athletes haha. I mean I love Olympic lifting, and I would be doing that if it didnt hurt my back after a long cycle.
The only concern I have is the mental aspect, and the fact that we talk on this cite about the only thing that is going to make you better at something is doing that "something." So I would make the argument that doing crossfit workouts does in fact make you better at doing crossfit workouts, the same way deadlifting will make you better at deadlifting. And like all things, crossfit needs supplementation, more importantly a huge strength base, and a structured strength program, along with running/inerval/endurance training, and most importantly, the WODs themselves. I totally understand that the mainsite WODs are in no way tailored to my specific needs as an athlete, but its hard considering im in school and training so frequently, and am biased to not program wods with my weaknesses. So I use the WODs as tests, and the mental aspet of a crossfit workout is difficult to match with anything other than a crossfit workout, in that way it is unique. Just like how an o-lifting workout requires a different state of mind than entering a crossfit wod.

With that said, your idea is very interesting and it peaks my interest. I may experiment with it myself and see if I maintain any progress.

Andrew Wilson 12-09-2010 04:37 PM

Interesting, the first 4 months of this may spark some ideas:
http://www.cathletics.com/forum/show...9&postcount=11

I never really understood why crossfitters never used 1RM % in their wods, but that may help. 400m-800m training is a great conditioning filler if you ever want to focus just on strength work without any wods.

Joshua Straiton 12-09-2010 04:47 PM

Okay, so that was an interesting thread. I see the concepts behind your post on the link you sent me. SO basically I would program based upon the mx chart, and follow the first four months, and your suggestion would be supplementing 400-800 meter sprints as conditioning? And using the weight charts and taking percentages of my 1rm's to feed them into these "metcons?"

I am intrigued, but I'm not sure if I buy that it will result in faster wod times. SOmething useful to experiment with before the games come around.

Andrew Wilson 12-09-2010 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Straiton (Post 84033)
Okay, so that was an interesting thread. I see the concepts behind your post on the link you sent me. SO basically I would program based upon the mx chart, and follow the first four months, and your suggestion would be supplementing 400-800 meter sprints as conditioning?

Using something like the first 4 months; or if solely doing strength work and no metcons, using a 400m or 800m training program as a conditioning supplement to metcons

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Straiton (Post 84033)
And using the weight charts and taking percentages of my 1rm's to feed them into these "metcons?"

Exactly for instance: Fran 21-15-9 with 95 pounds and say your 1RM thruster is 185 pounds. I'm not sure that is an accurate thruster max. But 95pound Fran is basically 51% of the 185 1RM thruster. When really a 21rep max is 60% 1RM, so adjusting the weight based on your 1RM is really going to stimulate strength increase because its relative to your 1RM. Versus doing the 95pound is rarely going to increase strength because its not large enough of a load and not relative to your maximum strength.

In that other post I'm suggesting doing Fran at 25-25-25 or 20-20-20 with weight relative to your 1RM, instead of 21-15-9 with a weight that isn't relative to your 1RM. 25 rep max is 57.5% of 185 1RM which is 105 pounds. Say you do this twice a week for a month: so you're doing Fran with a heavier weight, and with more reps. So you're stimulating strength increase + local muscular endurance. Now say you've done it twice a week for 3 weeks in a row, and this 25-25-25 Fran time which was originally slower than a typical 95# 21-15-9 Fran, is decreasing as the weeks went by. So before the 2nd month you retest your 1RM thruster, say it increases by 5 pounds and start doing 20-20-20 Fran with 62.5% of 190. So that'd be doing Fran 120 pounds 20-20-20. At first its slow, then as you keep go through the weeks, the time decreases. Third month you decide to do Rx'd Fran: 1) you're doing 45 reps instead of 75 and 60 reps with the other style, so you've develop local muscular endurance well capable of handing the 21-15-9 thrusters, 2) 95 pounds is 25 pounds lighter than what you're use to. The idea is to use progressive resistance as any other strength training but really the only difference is there is pullups in between each set in the case with Fran, in the case with Diane handstand pushups between sets. So the movement itself is strengthen/can progressively increase, but honestly I just think the circuit training is just a bad concept. My opinion separating them and doing them on their own is better.

Gant Grimes 12-10-2010 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Straiton (Post 84010)
Sunday: Morning-Heavy Deadlift wod
Evening-Mainsite wod

Monday: Morning- Mainsite wod
Evening- Two WOD's programmed around my weaknesses

Tuesday: Morning- Olympic Lifting, 5-3-1 Back Squats
Evening-Crossfit mainsite wod, then two short wods after five minutes rest, skill work

Wednesday: Morning- Mainsite WOD
Evening- Two self programmed WODs, interval rowing/running

Thursday-Rest/mobility

Friday- Morning- Max Snatch/Clean and jerk, 5-3-1 deadlift, then short crossfit wod
Evening- Fun outside WOD with logs or tree climbing ect

I don't think you have enough volume. In fact, this strikes me as somewhat lazy.

Jim Glover 12-10-2010 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gant Grimes (Post 84052)
I don't think you have enough volume. In fact, this strikes me as somewhat lazy.

That's awesome I think I'll have to double up on my workouts.

Joshua Straiton 12-10-2010 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gant Grimes (Post 84052)
I don't think you have enough volume. In fact, this strikes me as somewhat lazy.

haha. Yea I know it's a lot. But I'm young (18) and have good nutrition habits, good mobility habits, and I am making progress. Significant progress if you count decreasing times on the same workouts, along with strength gains. So why change especially if i enjoy it ya know?

And Andrew, I'm sure I would see strength gains, but I'm not sure it would make me better at metcons. Because like you said, training them separately (running intervals/metcons different from strength work) is more productive and I understand that. But I don't do metcons to get stronger, I do strength training to get stronger already separate from my metcons. I do metcons, simply to get better at metcons, which can be programed infinitely. I understand that technically every human movement constitutes a metabolic response, but I mean metcons as simply a variety of metabolic functional activities, whether specialized (running/rowing intervals) or triplets/couplets, whatever. The only reason I use the main page is because I don't have time to program that many specific metcons, and in that way the crossfit's site is convenient but definitely not my best option.

Emily Mattes 12-10-2010 02:38 PM

You must have known people were going to tell you you're doing too much, and you must have already come to conclusion that you were going to ignore them. So why make this thread at all? What do you think anyone could possibly contribute to your Totally Kick Ass Program?


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