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-   -   Old Guy O-Lift Training - Mang Foremong (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6535)

Jon Taylor 03-01-2012 09:37 AM

Old Guy O-Lift Training - Mang Foremong
 
Seek help from all but esp Matt since you are ...well...old
Reading your book, great stuff!
I'm 47 - have done ? 6 meets. Best at Arnold 3 yr ago 91 / 120 at 105.

My approach has always been pretty simple and dimwitted - just do the lifts as often as possible trying to improve technique (in my basement with no coach!) and increase weight. Mostly Joe Mills 20/20 kinda thing or Bulgarian sorta max then hit some singles at 90%. Some squats and deadlifts now and then.

Several confounding factors have lead me to desperate measures - such as signing up for internet forums and crying out for help:

1) stagnation / dead in the water - have I hit the point of no return at 47?

2) injuries - finding I have to work around more and more "stuff"

3) job/family - pretty much limited to 2 sessions per week - other days just quick rehab stuff, wheelchair conditioning, walker dips, chair aerobics, bingo

So toying with dangerous ideas:

- if my technique is what it is (bad) maybe just focus on getting stronger while I still can - actually have tried this, just doing an 8 week SQ/BP/DL cycle and max snatch and clean and jerk went up!

- break "lifts" down into less injurious components and get stronger at those;
power snatch/overhead squat, , power clean/front squat/jerk
or snatch pulls/OHS, , clean pulls/press/front squat etc.

- back way off on "lifts" going no where near "max" and hammer big basic strength moves more

- converting to shuffle board

Thank you for any help / advice you can provide.

Matt Foreman 03-08-2012 07:52 PM

Hey Jon,
Sorry it's taken me a while to read this. I haven't read the forum for a while (not intentional, just been busy). Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad you're liking the book!

Just based on what I read in your post, without having seen any of your lifts or knowing much about your training or experience, here are a few thoughts:

1) stagnation / dead in the water - have I hit the point of no return at 47?
***Maybe, maybe not. I think there are a lot of different things you could try before it's time to think that you're not gonna go any farther. And even if your lifts are getting smaller as years go by, you can still stay competitive and keep doing this if you really like it. I'm gonna go to a meet next weekend and do the smallest total I've done since I was eighteen, and I'm gonna love every minute of it.

2) injuries - finding I have to work around more and more "stuff"
***This is part of the game, unfortunately. You gotta live with it. But I absolutely positively think that you can make these things a lot more tolerable if you work hard on seeking out good information about how to keep your body healthy. I read a lot about pain management and joint preservation these days, and I'm constantly learning new things that help me feel better.

3) job/family - pretty much limited to 2 sessions per week - other days just quick rehab stuff, wheelchair conditioning, walker dips, chair aerobics, bingo
***Jon, I've been training only twice a week for seven years. It works great, so don't be afraid to trust it. If you're really getting the most out of those sessions, that's all that matters. Work the hell out of all that stuff you've always laughed at, like foam rolling, yoga (that's not a joke either), and physical therapy-type exercises.

- if my technique is what it is (bad) maybe just focus on getting stronger while I still can - actually have tried this, just doing an 8 week SQ/BP/DL cycle and max snatch and clean and jerk went up!
***I can positively tell you that your pain level will go down as your technique improves. If it was me, I would continue practicing the full lifts with REALLY light weights and try to sharpen your technique as much as possible. Just make yourself not go heavy for a long time, so the only challenge in your workouts will be how perfect you can make your lifts look.

- break "lifts" down into less injurious components and get stronger at those;
power snatch/overhead squat, , power clean/front squat/jerk
or snatch pulls/OHS, , clean pulls/press/front squat etc.
***You could try this, but I would still lean towards practicing the full lifts and making yourself improve at them (if your body will allow it).

- back way off on "lifts" going no where near "max" and hammer big basic strength moves more
***This is what I would do. Remember, there are no rules when it comes to being a 47 year-old weightlifter. You're making up your own rules at this point. The only rule is "if something works for you personally, then it's the right thing to do."

- converting to shuffle board
***This is always an option if lifting doesn't work out. Just keep it in the background as a good solid Plan B. If you decide to go with this, I would highly recommend increasing your alcohol intake. It'll be the only thing that pulls you through.

Jon Taylor 03-09-2012 08:19 AM

Matt,
Thanks for the reply / info!
----------------------
Quote:

- back way off on "lifts" going no where near "max" and hammer big basic strength moves more
***This is what I would do. Remember, there are no rules when it comes to being a 47 year-old weightlifter. You're making up your own rules at this point. The only rule is "if something works for you personally, then it's the right thing to do."
-----------------------
How light? - all sorts of %'s thrown around - does everybody have to find their own "light", a weight that allows quality singles but heavy enough to get into same groove as heavy lifts? On the other hand, I can honestly say that my PRs had no "groove" the were just grip and rip and hope to hold on without dislocating something or crapping myself. So maybe there is a training groove and a big meet, no tomorrow "groove" as well?

What big moves? Obviously back squats, probably front squats? Pulls - deadlifts or just snatch pulls and clean pulls (I debate with myself about whether DL, even RDL are "specific". I also start to feel downright metro if not doing some sort of pressing but probably doesn't contribute enough to be a deal breaker and maybe better use effort/recovery elsewhere? I, like most midwest Anglo-Germanic males should probably focus on building an ass more than anything.

Matt Foreman 03-09-2012 10:38 PM

"does everybody have to find their own "light", a weight that allows quality singles but heavy enough to get into same groove as heavy lifts?"
***Yes.

"I can honestly say that my PRs had no "groove" the were just grip and rip and hope to hold on without dislocating something or crapping myself"
***This is exactly why I think you should practice the full lifts as much as possible, if your body allows it. You need a motor pattern grooved in there. If you do this, you won't have to worry about shifting from one "groove" to another on meet day. Every lift will be the same.

"Obviously back squats, probably front squats? Pulls - deadlifts or just snatch pulls and clean pulls (I debate with myself about whether DL, even RDL are "specific"."
***Back squats definitely, front squats if your body cooperates. I would lean more towards snatch and clean pulls performed perfectly (with just a little more weight than your max SN and C&J) than DLs and RDLs. Pressing doesn't hurt anything, as long as it's not kicking the hell out of your shoulders or anything else.

Jon Taylor 03-10-2012 04:33 AM

Matt,
Thanks for these replies. This is gold for the old. You should write a book specifically for masters oly lifters. Although, admittedly, prob not a niche that would make a publisher start doing fist pumps.

Quote:

You need a motor pattern grooved in there. If you do this, you won't have to worry about shifting from one "groove" to another on meet day. Every lift will be the same.
That's my goal - "make them all look the same" like Vlad.
Of course, the kicker is developing the correct groove / technique.
Very difficult doing on own in basement with rare live coaching. Video analysis is another option but still does not compare to live coaching. Then there's the little things like various injuries to work around and constant temptation to become a splitter or just say to hell with it and power everything up.

Quote:

Back squats definitely, front squats if your body cooperates. I would lean more towards snatch and clean pulls performed perfectly (with just a little more weight than your max SN and C&J) than DLs and RDLs. Pressing doesn't hurt anything, as long as it's not kicking the hell out of your shoulders or anything else.
BP has destroyed my right shoulder but will tolerate some pressing. I sometimes resort to just lowering jerks to shoulder then drop instead of drop from overhead in attempt to work shoulders with negatives and avoid that low start position stress.
Thankfully, I'm squatting fine, including front squats and even OHS no prob - more shoulder work.

At work and don't have your book handy - I recall you discuss power snatches and power cleans but forget your exact recommendations (the mind also starting to go) - but I can say it gets really tempting sometimes to try to rationalize that if I just work the hell out of power snatches and power cleans and I can keep competing with those as my competition technique and get my squat sky high and just man up and get so damn strong I'll blow away my full lifts PRs. Probably delusional.


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