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-   -   225lb snatch fails - form help request (http://www.catalystathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7115)

Max Bernosky 07-22-2013 06:08 PM

225lb snatch fails - form help request
 
I know my arms are bending (they are long), but I am still getting to the power position with my feet flat on the floor. I am finishing my pull nice and tall and I don't think I am rainbowing the bar at all. I think it is traveling straight up. I am losing the weight forward. but feel as if I should be sticking this easy. It doesn't feel heavy.

This would be a 10lb PR.

any tips?

is my speed under the bar just shit? or is my set up / bar path into the 2nd - 3rd pull shit?

I find with the arm bend thing, If i grab collar to collar it hits me in the belly button in the power position. but where I am grabbing now my arms some how bend super lots to get to the hips. Is my upper back too loose or something on the pull?

I don't even know where to begin with this one.


do i need to simply get this arm bend stuff sorted out so i can have more power on the pull, get it higher, and have more time to get under it?


Javier Sanjuan 07-23-2013 10:34 AM

Max,

The questions you posed are some of your faults (which is why I think you listed them).

First, you need to lead out with your chest. It doesn't look like pulling power is an issue; you look very explosive. However, you need to lead out with you chest A LOT more. Your back is almost parallel and your shins are perpendicular to the ground when you start, almost like you're trying to deadlift the bar up. While the goal is to load the hamstrings during the first pull by getting the knees out of the way, you need to start with the chest taller, butt farther down, and knees slightly over the bar. You need to PUSH THROUGH the ground rather than PULL OFF of it. Incorporate those big muscles in the front of your legs (your quads) when you begin your ascent. The classic lift pulls are not deadlifts. You can help this by doing snatch deadlifts with a pause at the knee to help you feel proper positioning. Simply cueing yourself to keep your chest up (while keeping the chest and shoulders slightly over the bar) will lead to your butt going down and your knees going over the bar, all while building tension across all of your entire leg(s), not just the hamstrings.

Second, continue work on your receiving position. It looked like the third snatch simply surprised you. Do you consistently hit 90% of the 225 (205-210)? If the answer is no, and if the answer leads you to identifying that you lose a lot of your lifts because the bar jolts you, then you would benefit from overhead work. Depending on flexibility, you can do close-grip overhead squats, along with snatch presses/push presses, to strengthen the muscles involved with the receiving position. You can also incorporate snatch balances to simluate as closely as possible the weight coming down on to you during the snatch.

Lastly, I would revisit where your hands are placed on the bar. If you have to bend them, then there are not in the right position. When the bar is in your hands and you're standing tall, the bar should contact you at the hip crease. You say a collar-to-collar grip is forcing the bar to contact you at the belly button, and in the video it looks like you're pretty close still, so you're just going to need to find that grip that lets the bar connect with you at the hip crease. Once you find that, you're going to need to break that habit of bending the arms. This WILL take time, so be patient and give it the proper attention it needs. Tall, dip, blocks at mid-thigh, and mid-hang snatches will help with this. You can argue that there were/are a couple of lifters who were/are successful with an arm bend (like Mario Martinez, 1984 Olympic Silver Medalist), but they either a) start their pulling with that arm bend to shorten their limbs and don't bend it any further during their first and second pulls, or b) have a fault in their lifting techinque that they just learned to deal with (like Rich Froning). However, most would argue the people that fall into the "b" category could be much more successful if they learned the proper techinque. Is he strong? Yes, but I believe he and others that do this could lift a lot more if their strength was applied more efficiently.

I hope this helps. I think your speed under the bar is fine. It looks like a long laundry list of things to work on, but one thing will lead to another and you'll be doing a lot better if you put the time into correcting your technique.

Best,
Javi

Max Bernosky 07-23-2013 12:13 PM

Thanks for the detailed response.

1) i thought the point was to have the back angle the same from the moment the bar breaks the ground to the moment it passes the knee. aka hips and chest moving at the same time. during this time the bar shoudl be travelign backwards from the ground to the knee and at the knee the the shin angle should be perpendicular to the ground. I feel like I am doing all of this?

or are you saying I need to have more of a vertical back angle during this process? If so, what does the vertical back angle fix? will it help with getting under the bar?

2) I havn't missed a 90% snatch since the last time I posted on here (a while ago). I can snatch grip push press 225 for reps and the weight feels light. I can catch 90% fine deep in the hole being comfortable. However, I miss 100% snatch (215lbs) 50% of the time, which I think is normal?

3) i agree i need to grab wider. my arms are bending like crazy.

Thanks Javi!


Can someone correct me if I am wrong with the following assumptions:

I feel I am hitting the power position with my torso upright and feet flat on the floor, when I extend I am standing tall with vertical hips, and not rainbowing the bar. If this is true, which I think it is, why is my pull the issue? Woudln't my issue be how I am getting under the bar? If bar path on the pull is fine and consistant, why would that cause me to lose the weight forward? Or am I NOT hitting the power position on my heels, NOT getting the hips high and vertal, and AM rainbowing the bar a little? If so, I am assuming Javi's suggestions will fix this?!


Could I get a second opinion? Mr Everett?!

Javier Sanjuan 07-23-2013 01:46 PM

Max,

No worries. Here's a response to your questions:

1) You're correct about the relationship between the hips and shoulders, the back angle, and the bar's path. However, getting your butt down will incorporate more of your leg strength and be less reliant on that lower back. You're bringing them up together, but it's not at the angle you want. It'll help a number of other things that will be explained a little later in this post.

Your bar is also not traveling back when the weight leaves the ground. Instead, it's traveling straight up the shin due to your start position resembling a deadlift. This continues when you pass your knees as well. Positioning the bar over the big knuckle of the big toe, along with getting the knees forward of the bar a bit (a result of a tall chest), will help you really feel that sweep back. It's also going to limit that swing forward, which is a cause for missed lifts forward of you.

2) If you're missing 215 50% of the time, then you should be trying to hit 215 nine times out of ten CORRECTLY before attempting 225. When people prematurely jump in weight, they compound bad motor patterns. Often times, they're exaggerated even further, which will continue to drive you further down into that hole of poor technique. Could you have a great day and hit 225 without consistently hitting 215? Sure, but you won't hit again for a while.

3) Test out a new grip and see how that works for you.

Your assumption: I apologize for not addressing this with the first post, but you are swinging the bar, and it's not a result of you not properly hitting your power position. In terms of keeping your heels down and getting vertical, I think you're doing that well. I also think you're doing well with pulling under the bar. However, when people start the way you do, your hips are thrusted forward so violently that they naturally propel the bar forward rather than up. You want some contact, but not the way you're making it. The bump is made worse by the fact that you are not keeping the bar close to you after it passes your knees. Starting with the hips down and the bar a little farther away from you will help you sweep the bar back, keep it close to the thighs, and help you accelerate the bar UP rather than FORWARD by limiting that bump with the hip crease area. In all, I think this is why you're missing the majority of your lifts.

In addition to my previous recommendations, you should work on segment pulls (1", knee, hip, extend) and halting snatch deadlifts to really feel the proper bar path. I think my recommendations will help you, but you can wait to see if others have different opinions and take what you feel works best for you.

Hope that helps,
Javi

Peter Maxwell 07-23-2013 06:24 PM

Swing
 
My son lifted identically to you - i.e. the big pelvic thrust which shot the bar out in an arc.

We went to the catalyst dvd - snatch and went back to basics using just a bar and have been increasing the weight slowly up to where he was.

He wasnt rotating his elbows out at the start position. He also wasnt doing the snatch high pull with bent arms at the top and then transitioning under the bar and going down into the squat. He couldnt do that because of the arc outwards from the body after the pelvic thrust. He was doing the pelvic thrust as opposed to pulling the bar up and jumping up - explained better on the dvd.

So the snatches he missed were always in front cause that was where the bar was travelling after the pelvic thrust.

Doing it the way he was doing it meant that he had to plop the snatch right in the perfect spot - hence he was real hit and miss on the heavier snatches (70kg and above). He had previously been sprung by the judges for hitching as well. He was jumping backwards a far way too - you look to be going back about 2-3 inches as well which is better than him he was going back about 4-6 inches.

We have had the dvd for a couple of years (and in desperation/frustration) but I have to say the dvd really really helped.

The bar travel is now nearly in a straight line and we are just going heavy again.

The dvd breaks each of the pulls/moves down (special attention to the scarecrow). Get someone to video you and while your doing the moves.

He jumped from 80kg to a pb of 87kg the week after we started hammering his technique.

Like they say when in doubt read the instructions.

cheers

Max Bernosky 07-24-2013 07:06 AM

Thanks guys!

Søren Wahlgren 07-25-2013 01:24 AM

You need to work on pulling your shoulders back and down while pushing your chest out and up in the starting position and hold it through the first and second pull. If you pull with a rounded back and shoulders forward the bar is bound to end up in front of you.

With regards to grip width it's real easy, just grab the bar and stand tall with your chest up and shoulders back and dip about 5-10 cm. At this position the bar should be directly in the hip crease so if it's not adjust your grip accordingly.

The bending of your arms might be easily fixed by simply rotating your elbows forward in the starting position. I use this method on lifters all the time and it usually solves the problem immediately.


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