Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Training > Fitness, Strength & CrossFit

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-28-2008, 05:27 AM   #11
Michael elizondo
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5
Default Need a good combo

I always find doing a heavy 3-5 rep max followed by a power lift or plyo excercise brings out the best in me. I think the way alot of coahces break it down is the simple physics law > strength+speed= power. If you work on strength and speed seperately for a period, then for say a 3-4 week period try more power based work it should give good results. But everyone is different and depends on whether or not you are trained at power movements like C&J or snatch.
Michael elizondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 08:44 AM   #12
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

A buddy of mine who used to just do heavy PL and is over 240lbs, can run like the wind....and he never did any Oly stuff. So each has a component...as I am sure there are plenty of Oly lifters who can also run fast. Michael I like your approach to it....heavy then explosive. All in all...a good program would have both components to strength and power cycled in somehow.
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 08:51 AM   #13
Michael elizondo
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
A buddy of mine who used to just do heavy PL and is over 240lbs, can run like the wind....and he never did any Oly stuff. So each has a component...as I am sure there are plenty of Oly lifters who can also run fast. Michael I like your approach to it....heavy then explosive. All in all...a good program would have both components to strength and power cycled in somehow.
Yeah powerlifters and OL are beasts at the sprint, atleast over the first 30-40 yards, I think that's why alot of rugby players and american football players can keep up with elite sprinters over a 40yard dash...the only thing that hampers acceleration phase is excess bulk, but if you're graced with a reasonable physique, fast turnover rate and high amounts of strength and explosive power...you have the formula for a world champ.
Michael elizondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 08:59 AM   #14
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael elizondo View Post
Yeah powerlifters and OL are beasts at the sprint, atleast over the first 30-40 yards, I think that's why alot of rugby players and american football players can keep up with elite sprinters over a 40yard dash...the only thing that hampers acceleration phase is excess bulk, but if you're graced with a reasonable physique, fast turnover rate and high amounts of strength and explosive power...you have the formula for a world champ.
Something just scares me about a 240lb guy who can catch my ass in 40 yards! Ha. Yes, most sports are making some serious beasts. Just another reason why training for distance is not really applicable to sport performance. So the old days of the coach making the kids jog around the field are not going to lead to explosive and all state athletes (minus the naturally gifted ones of course).
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 09:33 AM   #15
Michael elizondo
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
Something just scares me about a 240lb guy who can catch my ass in 40 yards! Ha. Yes, most sports are making some serious beasts. Just another reason why training for distance is not really applicable to sport performance. So the old days of the coach making the kids jog around the field are not going to lead to explosive and all state athletes (minus the naturally gifted ones of course).
LMAO yeah same here, especially since that's 65lbs heavier than me! Well in England coaches are still behind, getting 100m sprinters to do 300m runs which is completely the wrong energy system to develop fast, explosive sprinters. Sprinters who are abit more muscular are usually best suited over 60m and 100m whereas the slighter ones are best over 200m and 100m. I can see the carry over of 300m to 200 although I think 250 would be ideal but 300m for a 100m runner...makes no sense. Shorter, intense interval training is the adopted protocol in the states I gather?
Michael elizondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 09:43 AM   #16
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael elizondo View Post
Shorter, intense interval training is the adopted protocol in the states I gather?
Adopted? Doubt I would say that....although I think people/coaches/athletes are starting to apply them more. At least you start to see more younger athletes being exposed to good strength/Oly training programs too. Compared to when I was in HS and my workout for the hockey team off season was the rusty all in one Nautilus machine in the basement of the school. That and the only strength and conditioning coach we ever had was whatever senior was down there.
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life

Last edited by Mike ODonnell : 04-28-2008 at 09:45 AM.
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 12:43 AM   #17
Barry Ross
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Everett View Post
Article on strength training for improved sprinting performance:

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/ar...&articleid=269

I like the general thrust of the article, but I do find it curious that it focuses on strength development rather than power development. Pavel's Power to The People approach uses intentionally slow strength movements--definitely a great approach for strength development, but arguably problematic for power athletes such as sprinters. The idea is that the stronger the athlete, the faster the stride rate will be because the shorter the ground contact time is--but this is really a product of power, not strength. These athletes clearly saw power increases from their added strength training, but it seems to me those results could have been even further improved by focusing on power work directly, e.g. power cleans, power snatchs, push press/jerk, jumping squats, etc. Thoughts?

Greg,
Thanks for letting me update what we've done since my article was posted on dragondoor.com
Pavels PTP book led to the article.
In fact, he strongly suggested I write the article as a test of the viability of writing a book. I had asked him if he would co-author and he said no. The reason for the negative was because he did not feel he had sufficient knowledge in strength training for sprinting. He was, however, intrigued by the concept of mass-specific force as the determinant of speed.
His advice was to write the article and see how much feedback I received before writing a book.
It worked-I wrote a book- people in 85 countries have purchased it.

Dr. Peter Weyand and his associates have provided a significant body of work regarding high speed running. One particular paper puplished in 2000, "Faster top running speed are achieved with greater ground forces not more rapid leg movement," caught my attention while I was training Felix.
The paper revealed several interesting concepts, but the most noteworthy was the dominance of mass-specific support force as the major factor in running.
"Support force" is the force applied to the running surface to oppose gravity. It is not "push-off" force. In fact, there is no force applied to the running surface by the runner after the first half of the stance phase. While most coaches are bothered by this fact, no locomotion researcher would claim otherwise.
The amount of support force applied by elite sprinters can exceed 4x bodyweight.

In your reponse to my article you asked for thoughts about why we did not suggest more "power" lifts. Prior to publishing my book, I removed all power lifts. In fact, we now do only DL's and bench ( or just push-ups for pure sprinters). No other exercises at all.

Ok, before you give me the stink-eye, hear me out!

An elite male sprinter at, 150 lbs bodyweight, will apply 600 lbs of support force prior to the end of the first half of the stance phase. That's on one leg and in approximately 0.05 seconds. What power exercise would come remotely close to that? The SAID princple ain't going to work here!
The majority of the 600lbs of force is delivered isometrically, which is the only way that much force could be delivered that fast but this doesn't mean that doing only iso work would be of benefit (most likely it would not).

Other posters to this thread mentioned the high initial speed of power and Oly lifters. While this is true, it is only true for the early acceleration phase where muscle mechanical work is done. After that they fade out because they do not have sufficient m-sf. They are to heavy! The result of the added mass causes them to have longer ground contact time to offset ground reaction force effectively. The nature of their sport relys on longer ground contact times.

So what kind of a workout would help those who need to run faster in their sport? That would depend on each individual athlete's rate of speed decrement.
What causes speed decrement? The over-abundance of the anaerobic fuel supply. This also nullifies the need for explosive lifts.
Keep in mind that everything I've mentioned is from research. Most of the info floating around the net has no research basis at all. It's based primarily on kinematics, which, by definition, ignores the effects of gravity.

I'll leave it at that for the moment because this is the point where people start throwing rocks or other stuff at me.

Thanks again Greg!
Barry Ross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 04:41 AM   #18
Chris Forbis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 836
Default

Sweet post. Certainly got your book on my radar.
Chris Forbis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 01:24 PM   #19
Donald Lee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 646
Default

http://www.bearpowered.com/blog/Perm...a53f1b440.aspx :

Quote:
Power lifts are slow. In fact they are incredibly SLOW compared to competition speeds. As soon as I see professional baseball pitchers practice by throwing a 10 or 20 lb baseball as fast as they can or a champion powerlifter limit ground contact to less than 0.07s when lifting in a competition, I'll stick by my minimalism.
Barry Ross' argument against the use of Olympic lifts does not seem valid to me. Is not intent more important than the actual speed in terms of building explosiveness or in terms of rate of force development?

The only rationale I can see for forgoing Olympic lifts and/or plyometrics is that the strength gained from the "minimalist" approach in the gym translates into explosiveness through the specific sprint training, which eliminates the need for adding Olympic lifts and/or plyometrics.
Donald Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 03:33 PM   #20
Barry Ross
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
http://www.bearpowered.com/blog/Perm...a53f1b440.aspx :



Barry Ross' argument against the use of Olympic lifts does not seem valid to me. Is not intent more important than the actual speed in terms of building explosiveness or in terms of rate of force development?

The only rationale I can see for forgoing Olympic lifts and/or plyometrics is that the strength gained from the "minimalist" approach in the gym translates into explosiveness through the specific sprint training, which eliminates the need for adding Olympic lifts and/or plyometrics.
You're comment about intent has validity from both Behm and Sale's JAP study of 1993 (where they concluded that the intent to increase velocity rather than actuall increase determined velocity-specific training response) and Mel Siff (in many of his Supertraining posts).

I would not dispute that fact, but rather I would point out that we never lift less than 85% of a 1rm and we do plyometric training during the strength workout.
Our run training is based upon a patented algorithm that allows us to predict running times from a few meters up to 5 minutes of running (distance covered) with >97% accuracy. This allows us to improve rate of force delivery in our athletes through running as close to maximal speeds as possible.

In other words, we're doing exactly what you've said in your second paragraph!

As a long time throws coach, I've been on both sides of the "power" issue.
I've spent many hours in discussions with researchers regarding the ability of elite athletes to deliver support force significantly faster than non-elites. As of now, there is no consensus as to the how or why they are able to (it does kinda knock out the idea of nurture over nature).

From an opposite perspective, speed decrements are not reduced by doing explosive training. Decrements are reduced by maximal or near maximal strength training.
Barry Ross is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:42 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator