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Old 09-03-2008, 07:17 AM   #1
Steven Low
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Arien, Michael, etc.:

The problem is that if you don't understand the concepts well, you can't apply them to practical workout construction. The concept of all weightlifting programs is virtually what Rip discusses in PP. Adding more templates to the book is not going to help you program better. Furthermore, each cycle (microcycles, mesocycles, etc.) have their own unique purpose and more or less depend solely on the abilities of the participant; it's impossible to prescribe something that is universal to everyone. Thus, basically the only way to get better at programming is to understand the concepts then to directly apply them to your workouts pretty much daily. Being handed program after program is not going to improve your ability to program for yourself (or others).

Now, if you need practice at it then that's one thing that can be improved, and in fact I think it would be a good idea to have a forum on here totally dedicated to programming your own workouts. Subsequent comments/posts to them would be critique on the better/worse points and generally be focused on feedback. That would get everyone access to quality feedback on workout construction. But it's really up to YOU to determine how much or little you can handle based on your conditioning levels and ability to recovery from fatigue.
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:58 AM   #2
michael cooley
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You misunderstand me. I wasn't looking to be handed a fish (God, there are quite enough templates and excel spreadsheets in the world already). I'm talking about understanding better what to do with a rod and reel. I want to better understand the principles (through the observations of one who has spent more time than I studying them) in the specific context of olympic weightlifting, where squatting is a means to an end, and useful only to the extent that it pushes up your snatch and clean.

mpc
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:45 AM   #3
Steven Low
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Michael:

That can be done online.

Look up some Westside templates with with work on assistance exercises (squats, OHS, etc. in this case) and how they integrate it with strength work (C&J, snatch). Similar concepts.
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:25 PM   #4
Steven Low
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael cooley View Post
Steven-

I don't think you intended to come across nearly so condescending as you actually did. That said...

Westside?!? How does Westside have any meaningful application to the question of how the principles of Practical Programming can be applied in the specific context of olympic weightlifting? That was my original question, by the way, and frankly it's a topic that's not much addressed either in Practical Programming or in this or other discussion boards. They are distinctly not similar concepts.

Frankly, the CA WOD comes as close as anything I've yet seen (or sketched out on my own) to implementing it. Kudos to Greg.

mpc
See, this is the problem in the first place.

1. You asked about how to integrate assistance exercises with a program.
2. I gave you a valid program such as Westside which extensively uses assistance exercises in it's program to progress on it's main lifts.

1. If you noticed Greg's PMenu/CA workouts are based on modified Bulgarian cycles and has elements of DE and ME programming.
2. Westside uses conjugate periodization that utilizes both DE and ME programming.

I am not suggesting you "use" Westside as a template to do Oly lifting. I am suggesting you use *learn* from Westside principles and apply them over to Oly. Take you what you need and discard the rest. Similarly, use PP how you need it to work Oly and discard the useless information that won't help you.

Not trying to be condescending or anything but if you can't see the application of ideas across different domains, you need to step back a bit and study different strength programs to learn from them. I think it's great you wanna specifically focus on Oly programming only; however, this approach gives a better overall understanding of most advanced-elite training programs that will directly translate to your ability to analyze why something works the way it does. As Greg said, the programming is probably beyond the scope of this book *because* it is too advanced for it.. so that's why I'm suggesting you learn the concepts here.. and not just from the modified Bulgarian cycle that is PMenu/CA WODs.

For example, if we use a Westside example again we can see how Oly uses explosive lifts as it's main lifts and uses max effort work such as back squats, OHS and other movements to help build those movements up. Westside uses different dynamic work as well as max effort work to generally build up strength and not explosive lifts such as DL, squat and bench. Very interesting parallel because the application is similar in some respects.

But it's your choice.. can't do the thinking or analyzing for you. Just don't expect to be spoon fed on why the PMenu/CA workouts work the way they do.
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Old 09-03-2008, 09:25 PM   #5
michael cooley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
See, this is the problem in the first place.

1. You asked about how to integrate assistance exercises with a program.
* * * * *
I am not suggesting you "use" Westside as a template to do Oly lifting. I am suggesting you use *learn* from Westside principles and apply them over to Oly. Take you what you need and discard the rest. Similarly, use PP how you need it to work Oly and discard the useless information that won't help you.

Not trying to be condescending or anything but if you can't see the application of ideas across different domains, you need to step back a bit and study different strength programs to learn from them. I think it's great you wanna specifically focus on Oly programming only
* * * * *
so that's why I'm suggesting you learn the concepts here.. and not just from the modified Bulgarian cycle that is PMenu/CA WODs.
* * * * *
But it's your choice.. can't do the thinking or analyzing for you. Just don't expect to be spoon fed on why the PMenu/CA workouts work the way they do.
Oh, for crying out loud...

I am trying to "learn the concepts here." You just keep misconstruing my original question and misjudging your audience.

I never asked about how to integrate assistance exercises with a program. I asked about the application of Practical Programming in the specific context of weightlifting. It's hardly a topic that has been exhaustively addressed anywhere, so it strikes me as a valid and productive topic of conversation. Here. On a discussion board. Devoted to weightlifting.

I certainly never asked to be spoon fed workouts (note the well-placed "teach a man to fish" metaphor, supra). Frankly, the very fact that no given "program" fits every lifter (as you correctly note) is precisely why such spoon-feeding is a waste of time. I've found the CA WOD to be a terrific resource, but -- if you're a 37 year old experienced weightlifter who can't train more than 3x a week, but is still actively competing -- it's going to require some tweaking. That's all I've been trying to accomplish here: start with a premise, then discuss. I'm just looking to further (and participate in) that discussion. Again, it's hardly a topic that has been exhaustively addressed anywhere, so it strikes me as a valid and productive topic of conversation. Here. On a discussion board. Devoted to weightlifting. Call me crazy.

I'm thrilled that you think it's great that I want to "specifically focus on Oly programming only." I've been focusing on it for the last 9 years, since I started training under Artie Dreschler in New York, and I have enough programs and templates to gag a mule. Practical Programming has started a new conversation about strength training, and I'm just trying to explore that conversation further in the specific context of olympic weightlifting.

I'm still looking forward to furthering and participating in that discussion, but it doesn't look like it's going to get off the ground tonight. I'm going to give it a rest for a bit. I'll try again later.

mpc
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Old 09-03-2008, 09:39 PM   #6
Steven Low
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If you want to discuss, why not bring up some specific quotes or points from PP and post them up for discussion?

Well, at least instead of talking generalities about knowing how PP can be used towards Oly. From what I've seen there's been nothing to discuss beyond asking Greg about it and him saying it should be a book all its own. If you want to discuss... ask away. Someone will provide input.


And yeah, you did "ask/talk" about integration of assistance exercises:

Quote:
I want to better understand the principles (through the observations of one who has spent more time than I studying them) in the specific context of olympic weightlifting, where squatting is a means to an end, and useful only to the extent that it pushes up your snatch and clean.
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Old 09-03-2008, 09:49 PM   #7
Arien Malec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
If you want to discuss, why not bring up some specific quotes or points from PP and post them up for discussion?
Can I suggest we spawn a different thread for this?

I don't think the application of PP principles are as straightforwardly applied to weightlifting as Steven thinks but I don't want that mixed in with discussion of Greg's book.
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:16 PM   #8
Steven Low
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arien Malec View Post
Can I suggest we spawn a different thread for this?

I don't think the application of PP principles are as straightforwardly applied to weightlifting as Steven thinks but I don't want that mixed in with discussion of Greg's book.
Say what? Michael said that not me.

Though.. one thing I've noticed is that programming remains nearly the same (in terms of how you build and structure exercises) across many domains.. bodyweight, barbell work, etc. Shrug. I wouldn't say it's straightfoward at all, but programming-wise there should be at least some overlap you can draw from. (Of course, then there's people who argue against my position and say bodyweight is nothing like barball and such but at least I program bodyweight/gymnastics work similar to barbell and it has worked fairly well for me I'd say).

But yeah, it's a good topic for another thread.
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Last edited by Steven Low : 09-03-2008 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 09-04-2008, 02:15 AM   #9
Allen Yeh
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I moved these posts today.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:53 PM   #10
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michael, have you had any luck looking for Pendlay's stuff? it's scattered around the web in various forum posts he he used to be an active poster. i know a lot of the basic template ideas behind the intermediate section of Practical Programming are influenced by Glenn's work, I would assume the advanced chapter is also, I recall a number of periodization schemes including the hormonal fluctuation model that seemed applicable to weightlifting.

Westside..that's funny. people using dumbed down Westside templates for stuff like Oly lifting......

reminds me of 1960's 70's Japanese cinema that heavily references American Gunfighter movies, culminating in the Seven Samurai which is then reborrowed whole cloth to make the Magnifient Seven...Films like the Lone Wolf and Cub series inspire filmwork in 70's Spagetti Westerns which then swap back to hyper focused action in Later 70's Japanese film....which then get re-stolen back and forth until you get the least original filmaker of all time Tarantino making Kill Bill...

short answer..if it works, steal it..
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