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Old 10-23-2008, 06:36 AM   #31
Darryl Shaw
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Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
FYI, at my last naturopathic medical convention, during an open floor session, several NDs specifically stated that exercising without supplementing minerals was really a bad idea, one doc even used the word "suicide" tongue-in-cheek.
So a group of people who make at least part of their living from selling supplements think it's a good idea for people to use supplements.....
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Old 10-23-2008, 07:05 AM   #32
Garrett Smith
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Darryl, please feel free to share what service/product you spend your day making a living on before judging others...

Also, I'd like to add that no matter how wonderful a diet one takes up, decades of poor nutrition can be next to impossible to make up with only food. It would be great if everyone figured out what to eat in their twenties, but few if any ever do it.

Philosophy, whether it is for example:
(1) whole foods provide all necessary nutrients, or...
(2) veganism is the perfect diet and will save the earth
cannot trump physiology, as in:
(1) massive nutritional deficiencies created through decades of malnutrition, or
(2) needs for animal-specific nutrients like B12/EPA/DHA/bioavailable iron.
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Old 10-23-2008, 07:58 AM   #33
Chris Salvato
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/shrugs

If G wanted to sell me something, he probably would have linked me to his site...but you did :P
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:22 AM   #34
Garrett Smith
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Actually, I sell very few products through my (in severe need of updating) online store and I make a point on forums not to push people in that direction, I ask them to PM me.
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Old 10-24-2008, 06:14 AM   #35
Darryl Shaw
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Darryl, please feel free to share what service/product you spend your day making a living on before judging others...
Does it matter how I make my living?

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Originally Posted by Garrett Smith
Also, I'd like to add that no matter how wonderful a diet one takes up, decades of poor nutrition can be next to impossible to make up with only food.
What? That sentence makes no sense.

Quote:
It would be great if everyone figured out what to eat in their twenties, but few if any ever do it.
The whole healthy eating thing is actually pretty simple because, as Michael Pollan said, all you need to do is "eat food, not too much, mostly plants"* and if people fail to understand this simple idea it's because there's a whole industry intent on keeping them confused about food so they can sell them garbage while at the same time there's this whole other industry telling people that they can fix their crappy diets with supplements. The nutrients you mentioned previously for example, methylcobalamin (B12), magnesium and iodine can all be obtained quite easily and inexepensively from food and foods containing prebiotic fructooligosaccharides such as inulin make probiotic supplements redundant.
Sometime around 400BC Hippocrates said “Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food” and as far as I'm concerned people would be much healthier and they'd save themselves a lot of money if they followed his advice rather than relying on the questionable advice of a bunch of modern day snake-oil salesmen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith
Philosophy, whether it is for example:
(1) whole foods provide all necessary nutrients, or...
(2) veganism is the perfect diet and will save the earth
cannot trump physiology, as in:
(1) massive nutritional deficiencies created through decades of malnutrition, or
(2) needs for animal-specific nutrients like B12/EPA/DHA/bioavailable iron.
Vegans don't need supplements they need meat.

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Actually, I sell very few products through my (in severe need of updating) online store and I make a point on forums not to push people in that direction, I ask them to PM me.
And yet it only takes two clicks of the mouse to find your online store......

*Link.
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Old 10-24-2008, 09:14 AM   #36
Garrett Smith
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What? That sentence makes no sense.
Yes, it does. I'll give you an analogy. A person with poor financial (eating) habits racks up a lot of debt (nutrient deficiencies) and is not able to pay their bills with their current job (malnutrition is established and progressing). They get a better job that pays more (whole food diet) and is enough to cover their bills and living expenses, barely. Problem is, even with this new job, they aren't making enough to pay off their debts, nor put anything into savings.

I have no problem with your whole food philosophy, I wish it worked all the time, I wish people were more willing to radically change their crappy diets than take pills & powders. Many simply won't do it.

Maybe another physician's article on the difficulties in getting people to change their diets will help:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/k...are-addictive/

Many people would rather die than change their diet. Us practitioners then have the choice--do we try to plug the holes in the dam with some pills, or do we get all uppity and judgemental about whole food philosophy (and completely lose the patient).

What you do for a living might matter in this discussion, as it would allow others who wished to pass judgment on you and your motives to do so, as you have so blatantly done to me. If you don't see patients/clients and demand that they change their diets on a regular basis, then you are basically "armchair quarterbacking" here.
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:47 AM   #37
Darryl Shaw
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Garrett, first I'd like to apologize. I didn't intend to make this personal as it's the supplements industry I have a grievance with not you. That said given your profession and my wholefoods zealotry I'm sure there will be plenty of things we disagree on in future so I'd like to make it clear that at no time am I trying to cause you or anyone else any personal offence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
Yes, it does. I'll give you an analogy. A person with poor financial (eating) habits racks up a lot of debt (nutrient deficiencies) and is not able to pay their bills with their current job (malnutrition is established and progressing). They get a better job that pays more (whole food diet) and is enough to cover their bills and living expenses, barely. Problem is, even with this new job, they aren't making enough to pay off their debts, nor put anything into savings.
Okay, I'll concede, albeit grudgingly, that there may be rare instances where people can benefit from a short course of supplements while they make the transition to a healthier diet but I don't believe that supplements will improve health beyond what could be achieved over the long term through diet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith
I have no problem with your whole food philosophy, I wish it worked all the time, I wish people were more willing to radically change their crappy diets than take pills & powders. Many simply won't do it.

Many people would rather die than change their diet. Us practitioners then have the choice--do we try to plug the holes in the dam with some pills, or do we get all uppity and judgemental about whole food philosophy (and completely lose the patient).
Sad but true. Case in point my parents; my mother has osteoporosis and is getting shorter by the day yet despite knowing that changing her diet and doing some exercise will improve her health and possibly help her live longer she refuses to do anything except drink gallons of milk every day and take the supplements her doctor convinced her she needs. It's the same story with my obese diabetic couch potato father who's convinced the pills he takes daily will make him better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith
What you do for a living might matter in this discussion, as it would allow others who wished to pass judgment on you and your motives to do so, as you have so blatantly done to me. If you don't see patients/clients and demand that they change their diets on a regular basis, then you are basically "armchair quarterbacking" here.
I definitely fall into the "armchair quarterback" category here and if that makes me seem judgemental to someone who works in the industry then so be it and I make no apologies for my opinions.
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:51 AM   #38
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Seriously that is a bogus claim....as find me any person who doesn't sell something (product, service, advice) in an effort to make money and put food on the table. It should be based on the quality of what a person sells (or how it is sold/marketed), not the fact that one has to sell something to make a living. I'd sell fish oil on my site because I believe people should take it, and they have to buy it somewhere. If I sold "Cortislim" then you could criticize my professional ethics.

I do agree that people "should" eat all whole foods all the time and get everything they need from there. I do however also live in the real world and know most people will NOT do that. If someone chooses to eat processed food and spend more money on supplements to make up for it, well that is their choice. I make no excuses for the supplement industry, as they wouldn't exist if people didn't keep buying their stuff. We could debate the individual need for each supplement, it's claims and how it is marketed....but the industry as a whole is far less evil than say big Pharma in my book.
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Last edited by Mike ODonnell : 10-25-2008 at 09:16 AM.
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