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Old 02-22-2009, 10:40 AM   #21
Steven Low
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Cool it Ben. No need to resort to ad hominem. Consider yourself warned & post editted.

I disagree as well UNLESS you need to glycogen load for another workout or endurance even the next day.
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Old 02-22-2009, 02:30 PM   #22
Arien Malec
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Originally Posted by Arien Malec View Post
Other things you can do are to move most of the carb blocks PWO and to look at subbing fat for carb (unless performance suffers).
In the hopes that there's still more room for light, rather than heat, in this thread, I thought I'd add three points to what I wrote above:

1) When I suggested dropping carbs until performance suffers, I was definitely not recommending ketosis unless Sarah is willing to accept sucking at CF, which I suspect she isn't (ketosis will kill glycolitic work which is the energy sweet spot for CF workouts)
2) I wanted to give Robb Wolf credit for informing what I wrote above and
3) I wanted to provide some Robb Wolf greatness references. Unfortunately, the organization of his blog isn't the easiest to work with, but I found these blog postings:

http://robbwolf.com/?p=272
http://robbwolf.com/?p=110

And definitely read his PM articles, neatly packaged here:

http://www.performancemenu.com/zen/i...0944db88514f6a
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Old 02-22-2009, 04:27 PM   #23
Ben Fury
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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Cool it Ben. No need to resort to ad hominem. Consider yourself warned & post editted..
I apologize to all involved. Both Darryl and you as well, Steven. What grumpy mood would get me to lapse into ad hominems is beyond me. I'm glad you edited the post. Thank you.

With a name like Fury, we can only guess what sort of barbaric ancestors I descend from. I will endeavor to wear the veneer of civilization and play nice.
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Last edited by Ben Fury : 02-22-2009 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Typo correction
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:37 AM   #24
Darryl Shaw
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"Any decent book on sports nutrition"? Name me one that can stand up to scrutiny. The high carb nonsense has run its course and is falling into the dust bin of failed metabolic theories where it belongs.

Carbohydrate directly converts to triglycerides in the liver and is most readily stored as fat.

"Fortunately, elevated triglycerides is one of the easiest problems to correct with the appropriate diet. Simple restriction of all sugars and grains."
http://www.healingdaily.com/conditio...glycerides.htm
Clinical Sports Nutrition (3rd edition) Edited by Louise Burke and Vicki Deakin.
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Old 02-23-2009, 04:30 PM   #25
Sarah Markle
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Thank you to all for the candid comments and suggestions. I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers.

Since going Paleo/Zone, I did learn that lowering daily carbs did not mean I'd drop dead of malnourishment, and hence began the process of cutting my daily intake. What I do know is that 3B/carbs/day make me bonk during daily WODs. Will not go back there! (approaching ketosis, I presume?) I am not directly opposed to ketosis, just can't do it while keeping a heavy WOD schedule during the week. I've since been in the 4-6B/day range, adjusting my daily fats to compensate (per RW, 42 Ways) and this seems to work OK so far....but I always wonder if I am not maximizing my opportunities to burn fat and build muscle simultaneously! I usually don't tinker with the PWO loading too much, since my daily amount was pretty low anyway, and my meal timing is not consistently 30-45 minutes PWO...it's more like 60 min or a little more- although, on triple mod days, I sometimes bring protein and sw. potatoes to the gym to put in asap. For now, 2x fat seems to work best, as well. It seems I have sufficiently repeated myself, so I'll call it at this juncture, but felt like thanking everyone for all the help.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Clinical Sports Nutrition (3rd edition) Edited by Louise Burke and Vicki Deakin.
Burke and Deakin? If you're into carb loading and fear fat, they're good ones to read. They'll support that position.

If you're into hearing an alternate hypothesis; enjoy reading a few papers by SD Phinney, JS Volek, and EC Westman.

A close reading of Phinney's:
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...3-7075-1-2.pdf
Ketogenic diets and physical performance
can be quite informative.
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Old 02-25-2009, 05:29 AM   #27
Darryl Shaw
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Originally Posted by Ben Fury View Post
Burke and Deakin? If you're into carb loading and fear fat, they're good ones to read. They'll support that position.

If you're into hearing an alternate hypothesis; enjoy reading a few papers by SD Phinney, JS Volek, and EC Westman.

A close reading of Phinney's:
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.co...3-7075-1-2.pdf
Ketogenic diets and physical performance
can be quite informative.
Thank's for posting the link. You're right it was quite informative, particularly the conclusion.......

Quote:
Conclusions
Both observational and prospectively designed studies
support the conclusion that submaximal endurance performance
can be sustained despite the virtual exclusion of
carbohydrate from the human diet
. Clearly this result
does not automatically follow the casual implementation
of dietary carbohydrate restriction, however, as careful
attention to time for keto-adaptation, mineral nutriture,
and constraint of the daily protein dose is required. Contradictory
results in the scientific literature can be
explained by the lack of attention to these lessons learned
(and for the most part now forgotten) by the cultures that
traditionally lived by hunting. Therapeutic use of
ketogenic diets should not require constraint of most
forms of physical labor or recreational activity, with the
one caveat that anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance
is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels
induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage
its use under most conditions of competitive
athletics.
Soooo... let's see; "submaximal endurance performance can be sustained despite the virtual exclusion of carbohydrate from the human diet" but "anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet." right?

In other words fat is an ideal fuel if you want to go for a really long walk in a cold climate but if you want to sprint to the finish line or lift a heavy weight above your head you'd better make sure you're eating enough carbs to replenish your glycogen stores between workouts.

Thank's Ben, glad you could help clarify things.
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Old 02-28-2009, 04:14 PM   #28
Emily Mattes
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Sarah--things are thickening, but are they more jiggly?

If you are gaining strength faster, you're probably gaining muscle faster, so you're putting on more muscle--and prime areas for someone to put on muscle in a Crossfit-like program that utilizes a lot of core and lower-body movements are the glutes, upper legs, and abdominals.

Regarding the carb debate: there is a lot of conflicting nutrition science out there. The human population differs enough in insulin sensitivity that when you throw in the fact that many nutrition studies are stupidly designed and do not contain enough subjects, you get a whole lot of confounding factors that do not produce discernible, bedrock results.

The vast majority of the population eats too many carbs, especially refined. But how much is too much, and how little is too little, is dependent on genetics, activity levels, current and desired body composition, medical history, and a whole host of other factors I'm probably forgetting. Until some kind of test is developed that can determine an individual's exact metabolic and macronutrient needs we're resigned to trial-and-error. It's not a pat answer but it's better than anything else we can give.
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Old 02-28-2009, 09:24 PM   #29
Derek Weaver
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Emily,
Well said. The one thing I'd chip in with is that there is a fairly decent test that can be done... a glucose tolerance test. That's really the only way to really know where insulin sensitivity lies.

Most people have better insulin sensitivity than they think, they just sit around too much. I've grown to think that the issue is too much food and not enough doing anything.

If we were all rice farmers who had to work 15 hours per day in the fields with rice as our main food source with maybe a little chicken or fish to go with it.... I'd wager we'd all be just fine in terms of body comp etc. Likewise if we all walked all day stalking a kill while snacking on fruits and nuts along the way, we'd all be fine.

The key is move more, eat less.
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Old 03-01-2009, 12:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
In other words fat is an ideal fuel if you want to go for a really long walk in a cold climate but if you want to sprint to the finish line or lift a heavy weight above your head you'd better make sure you're eating enough carbs to replenish your glycogen stores between workouts.

Thank's Ben, glad you could help clarify things.
You're most welcome.

Now you realize why many top coaches that utilize ketogenic diets to optimize body composition in their athletes require "carb up" days once per week to keep glycogen topped off for competition and maximal training.
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